Urban Math: the multiplying power of small scale multi-family

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I hate how Chicago's zoning forces setbacks in so many of its multi-tenant housing zones.

why?

chicago's super green and leafy residential side streets are one of my favorite aspects of living here.

[Investing In Chicago]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I'm gonna stir the pot here (), but I hate how Chicago's zoning forces setbacks in so many of its multi-tenant housing zones.

Seems like an odd thing to hate, It's one of the best features in my opinion, I absolutely hate when residential buildings are lot line with the sidewalk.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

why?

chicago's super green and leafy residential side streets are one of my favorite aspects of living here.

I think urban blocks without setbacks look cleaner or neater. I think Chicago would largely retain the green character without the setbacks due to the tree cover and the grassy curb strip.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I think urban blocks without setbacks look cleaner or neater. I think Chicago would largely retain the green character without the setbacks due to the tree cover and the grassy curb strip.

to each their own.

i much prfefer the little extra green space to soften things.

it's probably because it's what i'm accustomed to.

plus, the small front yards of our block are super family-friendly and help make our whole block pretty damn social as the kids run around all over the place and parents hang out and drink beer on the front stoops.

our old block over in edgewater was zero-lot line flats DIRECTLY on the sidewalk without any front yard setbacks at all. it still was nice and green thanks to the plentiful parkway trees, but it wasn't nearly as social of a block.

i notice these kinds of small details and the big impacts they can have on how people use their street.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago

Seems like an odd thing to hate, It's one of the best features in my opinion, I absolutely hate when residential buildings are lot line with the sidewalk.

I dislike it in general. Chicago is most famous for it but you can also see it in various parts of the country.


Hate it: https://goo.gl/maps/Mm818VzAqTmVftu2A
Hate it: https://goo.gl/maps/AHMCDN3bAHD8VnY69
Hate it: https://goo.gl/maps/BH9rDBuBNzqSMMDh9
Hate it: https://goo.gl/maps/7LLT3dy6oMBFLPwV9 (okay, this one isn't that bad)

[Steely Dan]

Love it: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9657...7i16384!8i8192

[JManc]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I dislike it in general. Chicago is most famous for it but you can also see it in various parts of the country.


Hate it: https://goo.gl/maps/Mm818VzAqTmVftu2A
Hate it: https://goo.gl/maps/AHMCDN3bAHD8VnY69
Hate it: https://goo.gl/maps/BH9rDBuBNzqSMMDh9
Hate it: https://goo.gl/maps/7LLT3dy6oMBFLPwV9 (okay, this one isn't that bad)

I bet most of those had trees at one point. If you look at historic photos of cities; the streets were far more tree lined than they are today. Either disease wiped them out or they died of old age and never replaced.

[Investing In Chicago]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I dislike it in general. Chicago is most famous for it but you can also see it in various parts of the country.


Hate it: https://goo.gl/maps/Mm818VzAqTmVftu2A
Hate it: https://goo.gl/maps/AHMCDN3bAHD8VnY69
Hate it: https://goo.gl/maps/BH9rDBuBNzqSMMDh9
Hate it: https://goo.gl/maps/7LLT3dy6oMBFLPwV9 (okay, this one isn't that bad)

That's fine, it's all subjective, but you'd have a hard time convincing me, that

THIS:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9657...7i16384!8i8192

is better than

THIS:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/14...!4d-87.6639318

From a livability perspective.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I dislike it in general. Chicago is most famous for it but you can also see it in various parts of the country.


Hate it: https://goo.gl/maps/Mm818VzAqTmVftu2A
Hate it: https://goo.gl/maps/AHMCDN3bAHD8VnY69
Hate it: https://goo.gl/maps/BH9rDBuBNzqSMMDh9
Hate it: https://goo.gl/maps/7LLT3dy6oMBFLPwV9 (okay, this one isn't that bad)

Something we actually agree on! That last example is better because the green frontage is something other than lawn. Front gardens, especially lush ones, are significantly more appealing than mowed grass which I hate.

[homebucket]

The setbacks vs no setbacks things also seems to be very dependent on specific locations. There are some cases where having setbacks doesn't look good, like some of the examples ihh posted, but others where it does look good, like what IIC posted. And vice versa, I'm sure we can find pictures where no setbacks look pretty bad. It'd really just come down to how well landscaped that front area is.

[Investing In Chicago]

Originally Posted by homebucket

The setbacks vs no setbacks things also seems to be very dependent on specific locations. There are some cases where having setbacks doesn't look good, like some of the examples ihh posted, but others where it does look good, like what IIC posted. And vice versa, I'm sure we can find pictures where no setbacks look pretty bad. It'd really just come down to how well landscaped that front area is.

Agree. Other cities may do a poor job at setbacks - but the comment was how they don't like how Chicago requires setbacks, then gives 4 examples of setbacks, none of which being Chicago. I do agree with them though that I don't like the 4 examples provided.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Front gardens, especially lush ones, are significantly more appealing than mowed grass which I hate.

not if you have young children who ideally require some non-concrete space to run around.

i'll take small useable front lawns over non-functional gardens every time from the prespective of a city parent with two young children.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago

That's fine, it's all subjective, but you'd have a hard time convincing me, that

THIS:
https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9657...7i16384!8i8192

is better than

THIS:
https://www.google.com/maps/place/14...!4d-87.6639318

From a livability perspective.

I 1000% prefer the first one.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Something we actually agree on! That last example is better because the green frontage is something other than lawn. Front gardens, especially lush ones, are significantly more appealing than mowed grass which I hate.

Yeah. Happy to find common ground on something, and I totally agree that gardens are better than lawns.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I 1000% prefer the first one.

and that's fine.

others, myself included, 1000% prefer the second one.

it's subjective taste and not at all the point of this thread, which is about how small-scale "missing middle" multi-family housing can really boost a neighborhood over the "urbanism hump" from an ok-ish streetcar-suburban level (the examply of my friend's bungalow-belt neighborhood of jeff park) up to a density level that can more capably support more functional urbanism (the example of my neighborhood of lincoln sqaure). it has fuck-all to do with city vs. city crap.

it's far more challenging to support functionally urban neighbohood retail high streets like this one with 10K ppsm than it is with 25K+ ppsm.


tightly packed city bungalows can easily do 10K ppsm, but if you can shoe-horn 1 - 3 extra housing units units onto every city lot, things getter much better in my eyes.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

not if you have young children who ideally require some non-concrete space to run around.

i'll take small useable front lawns over non-functional gardens every time from the prespective of a city parent with two young children.

Back yards. I almost never see anyone actually using front lawns for anything other than as a place to run their lawn mower. That's particularly the case for ones as small as in those examples which are basically just inert buffer spaces.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Back yards. I almost never see anyone actually using front lawns for anything other than as a place to run their lawn mower and that's particularly the case for ones as small as in those examples which are basically just inert buffer spaces.

the backyards on our block are fucking tiny.

ours is 27' x 13' and 100% patioed with brick pavers.

we definitely still have fun back there, but there's no grass.

the front lawns on my street are definitely used. they are where the kids play, the parents drink, and everyone hangs out and has a good time.

it's way more fun than everyone sequestering themselves in their own private little backyards.

if i just wanted a private backyard, i'd move out to the burbs.

fuck that. give me an active city residential sidestreet anyday over "backyards".

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

the backyards on our block are fucking tiny.

ours is 27' x 13' and 100% patioed with brick pavers.

we definitely still have fun back there, but there's no grass.

the front lawns on my street are definitely used. they are where the kids play, the parents drink, and everyone hangs out and has a good time.

it's way more fun than everyone sequestering themselves in their own private little backyards.

if i just wanted a private backyard, i'd move out to the burbs.

fuck that.

The backyard would have more space if the building was moved closer to the street. I'm not saying that outdoor space should be reduced, just that the building should be closer to the street.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I 1000% prefer the first one.

That's a hot take because that particular example (Philly) is not that attractive of a streetscape while the Wrigleyville street is picturesque.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I'm not saying that outdoor space should be reduced, just that the building should be closer to the street.

I disagree.

i've actually lived on both kinds of city streets. one with small front lawns and utterly tiny back yards and one with zero-lot line buildings direclty on the sidewalk but with larger backyards.

i'll take the former everytime because it's way more fun and social!

why drink a beer in the backyard yard by yourself when you can share a beer with other dads out front on the street while your kids all run around together and self-entertain themesleves?

parenting is much easier when you don't really have to do it.