HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #81  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2022, 6:05 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
A lot of the shift in Florida over the last 20 years was just a result of generational change. Back in 2000 most Florida retirees were still members of the Greatest Generation, who grew up with the New Deal and were left-of center. Now retirees are largely Silents, who were always more conservative overall, and are now the most right-leaning generation (though older members of Gen X are close).
This generational change is important. Remember that WWII vet Bob Dole actually lost the seniors' vote to Bill Clinton in 1996 who were concerned about Social Security privatization/cuts.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #82  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2022, 6:06 PM
JManc's Avatar
JManc JManc is online now
Dryer lint inspector
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Houston/ SF Bay Area
Posts: 37,789
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post
Boston? Providence?

Elsewhere in the northeast?
Upstate NY cities has/ had the highest percentage of Italian Americans. Suburb of Utica once had the highest % of Italians in the US.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #83  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2022, 6:10 PM
dave8721 dave8721 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Miami
Posts: 4,036
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
For retirees/snowbirds, I've noticed moving to Florida is now almost a political act. That's an extremely recent phenomenon. Before it was all about sunshine and avoiding taxes. Jewish garmentos from the Bronx (later LI) baking in the South Florida heat. Libs and cons both welcome.

So probably there's a bunch of deliberate self-sorting now. The Carolinas/GA coastal areas, which previously weren't even in play, seem to attract a different crowd, I think?
Very recent. As recently has just 2018 DeSantis won the Gov race by just 30k votes, a 0.4% margin of Victory. BLM/riots, "woke" and Covid responses have all pushed it far right. Also Florida tends to be more working class white rather than College educated white.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #84  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2022, 6:16 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I guess the critical question then is why did this class of people stay within the city (or "city" if you will) in NYC, where they decamped to the suburbs pretty much everywhere else in the country?
Obviously a lot did decamp to the suburbs. Italian is the most common ancestry in pretty much every suburban NYC county.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #85  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2022, 6:19 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave8721 View Post
Also Florida tends to be more working class white rather than College educated white.
There's really no draw for out-of-state working-age folks with college degrees to move to Florida. The state has a really unimpressive set of public and private universities. There's a few notable "College towns" like Gainesville, but there's no chance of them taking off like somewhere like the Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill triangle or Madison, WI. Unlike somewhere like TX or even SC there hasn't been an attempt to poach white-collar office jobs from the north as well. Really the economy is just tourism and catering to retirees.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #86  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2022, 6:26 PM
202_Cyclist's Avatar
202_Cyclist 202_Cyclist is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,913
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave8721 View Post
There is the non-stop Spanish radio propaganda "the socialistsas are coming to get you" as well. In one Venezuelan district in Doral it went from Hillary getting 77% of the vote in 2016 to Trump getting 56% of the vote in 2020. It seems Hispanic men shifted wildly away from Biden towards Trump.
Not having Elizabeth Warren and Bernie being the most visible elected leaders of the Democratic party constantly saying how awesome socialism is should help Democrats recover with Latino voters. That and not campaigning in-person significantly hurt Democrats in 2020.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #87  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2022, 6:28 PM
202_Cyclist's Avatar
202_Cyclist 202_Cyclist is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 5,913
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
There's really no draw for out-of-state working-age folks with college degrees to move to Florida. The state has a really unimpressive set of public and private universities. There's a few notable "College towns" like Gainesville, but there's no chance of them taking off like somewhere like the Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill triangle or Madison, WI. Unlike somewhere like TX or even SC there hasn't been an attempt to poach white-collar office jobs from the north as well. Really the economy is just tourism and catering to retirees.
What about money laundering and real estate speculation?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #88  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2022, 6:31 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,551
Probably true, but I still think it's bizarre that many Latino FL voters believe "socialism" as discussed in the U.S. context has anything to do with Latin populist movements (as opposed to, you know, basic supports in every other first world country on earth), and even stranger, that those claiming opposition to populist personality cult types would then support a populist personality cult.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #89  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2022, 7:03 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Probably true, but I still think it's bizarre that many Latino FL voters believe "socialism" as discussed in the U.S. context has anything to do with Latin populist movements (as opposed to, you know, basic supports in every other first world country on earth), and even stranger, that those claiming opposition to populist personality cult types would then support a populist personality cult.
I honestly believe that at least some of Trump's Latino appeal is pretty much that his public presentation was a lot more like that of a right-wing Latin American politician than what the Republican Party would traditionally have.

Plus, for whatever reason, Latinos always seem to swing toward the incumbent, even when the incumbent loses. 1992 was the only time that didn't seem to happen, which was due to the Perot factor.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #90  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2022, 7:16 PM
McBane McBane is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 3,717
^ Also many are socially conservative
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #91  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2022, 7:19 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I honestly believe that at least some of Trump's Latino appeal is pretty much that his public presentation was a lot more like that of a right-wing Latin American politician than what the Republican Party would traditionally have.
Possibly. And I suspect the Dems do a horrible job of reaching Latino voters. The GOP likely has very well-targeted messaging to the differing communities.

For example, the Socialist=Dems label seems to work very well in South Florida, but in Texas, this would fail among Mexican Americans. Mexico's Obrador is a very popular Socialist leader with strong support among Mexican Americans, and warm rapport with Trump (and Cuba/Venezuela). His base, rhetoric and policy prescriptives are essentially the same as in Cuba/Venezuela, yet Mexican Americans are drifting away from the U.S. party popularly identified with Socialism.

It may simply be that most Cuban-Americans have upper class roots, and like right-wing populism, and most Mexican-Americans have lower class roots and like left-wing populism, and so for both communities, Trump is the populist candidate.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #92  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2022, 7:45 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,787
The GOP has always been pretty accommodating to Cuban migrants, so that explains the continuing affinity in south Florida. The Trump administration's actions to roll back the Obama admin's re-establishment of diplomatic ties to Cuba were also popular among Cubans.

Historically, the U.S. government intervened a lot in Cuba to protect U.S. economic interests, and that primarily benefited upper-class Cubans. That is how the Spanish-American War started.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #93  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2022, 8:17 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
Interesting take on the differences between Westchester and LI:

Quote:
Westchester has more liberal elite professional suburbs, and Long Island has more middle and upper class car dealership owner suburbs
Quote:
White ethnic boomers who grew up in Long Island and went to elite colleges and became affluent professionals (or married them) started their own families in Westchester or Connecticut instead. In their place white ethnic boomers who had grown up in the outer boros moved to LI
https://twitter.com/freedaaron/statu...70637160267783
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #94  
Old Posted Sep 15, 2022, 8:23 PM
homebucket homebucket is online now
你的媽媽
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: The Bay
Posts: 8,722
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave8721 View Post
Also Florida tends to be more working class white rather than College educated white.
Even the college educated whites, or at least the rich whites (not sure if they're college educated or not) tend to lean conservative.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #95  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2022, 3:00 AM
dave8721 dave8721 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Miami
Posts: 4,036
Quote:
Originally Posted by homebucket View Post
Even the college educated whites, or at least the rich whites (not sure if they're college educated or not) tend to lean conservative.
Biden won White college graduates while he lost whites without a 4-year degree by a 2-1 margin.


Interesting how this has shifted over the years. Clinton back in 1992 won a big majority of non college educated whites too.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/08/u...ates-vote.html
Quote:
When the Harvard-educated John F. Kennedy narrowly won the presidency in 1960, he won white voters without a degree but lost white college graduates by a two-to-one margin. The numbers were almost exactly reversed for Mr. Biden, who lost white voters without a degree by a two-to-one margin while winning white college graduates.
Among hispanics the trend was in the same direction. Trumps/Republicans big gains among Hispanics were largely in the non-college educated.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #96  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2022, 12:12 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave8721 View Post
Biden won White college graduates while he lost whites without a 4-year degree by a 2-1 margin.
I think the poster you are quoting was referencing Florida, not the country as a whole.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #97  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2022, 2:42 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Interesting take on the differences between Westchester and LI:
https://twitter.com/freedaaron/statu...70637160267783
There are a lot of towns in Westchester and LI that are superficially similar, but culturally quite different.

For example, the Rivertowns in Westchester (towns along the Hudson) and the South Shore of LI are superficially similar (white, somewhat affluent, lots of Italians, Irish and Jews, older railroad suburbs with cutesy downtowns), but are culturally quite distinct.

The Rivertowns are very liberal and full of literary agents, psychiatrists, ad execs, people working in music and theater. The South Shore is rather conservative and full of contractors, tradespeople, small business owners and family firms. Also the Rivertowns are very popular for expats and non-locals, the South Shore is full of locals originally from the Outer Boroughs.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #98  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2022, 4:34 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
Hastings-on-Hudson seems like a pretty representative example of the Rivertowns demogrpahic:

https://statisticalatlas.com/place/N...on/Occupations
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #99  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2022, 4:59 PM
mrnyc mrnyc is offline
cle/west village/shaolin
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 11,586
Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartthed View Post
The GOP has always been pretty accommodating to Cuban migrants, so that explains the continuing affinity in south Florida. The Trump administration's actions to roll back the Obama admin's re-establishment of diplomatic ties to Cuba were also popular among Cubans.

Historically, the U.S. government intervened a lot in Cuba to protect U.S. economic interests, and that primarily benefited upper-class Cubans. That is how the Spanish-American War started.
well if you take a step back the former cuban government also benefitted upper class cubans and usa mobsters too for quite awhile. until the people got tired of it and came down from the hills and kicked them out.

i find that quite heroic and would hope to have done the same as necessary.

the problem for cuba is of course that they traded that style of corruption in for common latin tin pot dictatorship corruption.

we’ll leave the economic system out of it as its just a red herring to the much more problematic violent/fascist cuban dictatorship.

so while i welcome them as immigrants i dont have a lot of sympathy for cuban expats from those days in the usa, other than humanitarian. they made their bed. and at least the majority of immigrants who are generally far more poor and less one issue voters dont see the need for supporting even more far right wing politics in the usa.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #100  
Old Posted Sep 16, 2022, 5:24 PM
iheartthed iheartthed is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: New York
Posts: 9,787
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrnyc View Post
well if you take a step back the former cuban government also benefitted upper class cubans and usa mobsters too for quite awhile. until the people got tired of it and came down from the hills and kicked them out.
Yeah, that's what I was referring to when I said the U.S. government has been intervening there since the Spanish-American War. One of the conditions for Cuba being granted independence from the U.S. was that the U.S. government had the right to intervene in both Cuba's domestic affairs and in its international relations.

Cuba's status before the Cuban Revolution was almost the same as what Puerto Rico's status is today. The main difference is that Cuba wasn't claimed as a territory by the U.S. government, and Cuba's citizens weren't U.S. nationals.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 2:16 AM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.