Lamenting the decline of the car

[Rollerstud98]

Those with an EV who have also driven something with a CVT, how does the experience of driving both compare? I hope modern EV’s will be more enjoyable to drive than the Mitsubishi Outlander rental I currently have.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by Rollerstud98

Those with an EV who have also driven something with a CVT, how does the experience of driving both compare? I hope modern EV’s will be more enjoyable to drive than the Mitsubishi Outlander rental I currently have.

I've never driven a CVT before, but based on reviews, I don't think I want to. I have driven an EV before though (Model X), and I think it should be much smoother and refined than what I imagine a CVT would be like. Some on here would probably call me old fashioned, but neither beats a manual transmission in terms of driving enjoyment.

[SpongeG]

does anyone ever see any of these ones?

I see them maybe once a week, saw one on the way home today, not too common, not too practical other than being designed as a commute vehicle.

Electra Meccanica

hgmsites.net

[Innsertnamehere]

could it really have killed them to make it that wide all the way back to squeeze in a second seat? I like the idea of a smart-car like little electric commuter, but single seat is pretty limiting.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

does anyone ever see any of these ones?

I see them maybe once a week, saw one on the way home today, not too common, not too practical other than being designed as a commute vehicle.

Electra Meccanica

hgmsites.net

I would only drive that if my first name was Han.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Rollerstud98

Those with an EV who have also driven something with a CVT, how does the experience of driving both compare? I hope modern EV’s will be more enjoyable to drive than the Mitsubishi Outlander rental I currently have.

Nothing like instant torque off the line and no gearing up/down.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

does anyone ever see any of these ones?

I see them maybe once a week, saw one on the way home today, not too common, not too practical other than being designed as a commute vehicle.

I live in the same neighbourhood as their HQ/showroom. I've seen them driving around a bit. I like the idea, but man they are low to the ground. I think you'd feel pretty vulnerable on the road.

I've ridden a motorcycle for years, and there's some obvious vulnerability there, but you're up high and can see and be seen a lot better.

[Rollerstud98]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Nothing like instant torque off the line and no gearing up/down.

The instant torque I will not mind, but as far as gearing I enjoy shifting gears so I will miss that part of it.

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Rollerstud98

Those with an EV who have also driven something with a CVT, how does the experience of driving both compare? I hope modern EV’s will be more enjoyable to drive than the Mitsubishi Outlander rental I currently have.

CVTs - especially the earlier ones - do have a very different character than stepped-gear automatic transmissions.

For the first 15-20km/h they feel very loose - the engine revs fairly freely and acceleration is more seemingly related to engine RPM.

After that, the torque converter lockup clutch engages and acceleration is less dictated be engine RPM and more by the instantaneous gear ratio the CVT chooses. It feels almost hydraulic-like in comparison.

Full throttle is weird too - the engine revs to the point where it makes maximum power and the CVT holds it there. While delivering the best acceleration (you're always at maximum power), it is disconcerting to just hear the engine droning away at the same RPM under wide-open throttle.

I'd imagine that electric cars are similar. The electric motor will spin at the RPM required to deliver the acceleration needed. Multi-gear transmissions typically aren't required, so none of the gear changes that were common with ICE cars will happen. Not that most really care.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

could it really have killed them to make it that wide all the way back to squeeze in a second seat? I like the idea of a smart-car like little electric commuter, but single seat is pretty limiting.

I'm guessing that by making it a 3-wheeler it gets classified as a motorcycle and thus gets exempted from a lot of the safety requirements that a 4-wheeled car would have to adhere to? That said, I have seen 3-wheeled sports cars (like the Polaris Slingshot) that have 2 seats, so .

Perfect commuter car, I suppose, but I wouldn't want to get hit in one regardless.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by rofina

The Rivian is fire.

If I was a little less disciplined with my finances I would order one, I really like it.

I'm not a truck guy as such, in fact I have never owned one, but I've been watching the Rivian since they first started trickling out details during its development. If I were flush with cash and had a need for a truck I would be wanting to get one of these. As it is I will still be excited to see them on the road. Their styling is ultra cool IMHO.

One of the things that would have kept me from owning a truck in the past is the lack of storage space that most are afflicted with. The EV trucks will now have large storage compartments where an IC engine would normally reside, a feature that will be very popular as it hugely increases the usefulness of the vehicle.

The new F-150 Lightning will have a very large 'frunk' (which apparently is the proper terminology?), at 14.1 cubic feet, approx the size of a traditional midsize sedan's trunk and a little bigger than Rivian's 11.0 cu ft frunk.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2022...trunk-details/

I thought it was cool when the Honda Ridgeline offered a small trunk below the 'truck bed', but it was still a bit of a pain to access as you had to open the tailgate to get at the trunk, as well as keep the bed floor clean of ice and snow in the winter or it would all fall down into the trunk when you opened it. The 'frunk' is head and shoulders above that. Very cool!

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

I'm not a truck guy as such, in fact I have never owned one, but I've been watching the Rivian since they first started trickling out details during its development. If I were flush with cash and had a need for a truck I would be wanting to get one of these. As it is I will still be excited to see them on the road. Their styling is ultra cool IMHO.

One of the things that would have kept me from owning a truck in the past is the lack of storage space that most are afflicted with. The EV trucks will now have large storage compartments where an IC engine would normally reside, a feature that will be very popular as it hugely increases the usefulness of the vehicle.

The new F-150 Lightning will have a very large 'frunk' (which apparently is the proper terminology?), at 14.1 cubic feet, approx the size of a traditional midsize sedan's trunk and a little bigger than Rivian's 11.0 cu ft frunk.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2022...trunk-details/

I thought it was cool when the Honda Ridgeline offered a small trunk below the 'truck bed', but it was still a bit of a pain to access as you had to open the tailgate to get at the trunk, as well as keep the bed floor clean of ice and snow in the winter or it would all fall down into the trunk when you opened it. The 'frunk' is head and shoulders above that. Very cool!

Yeah the frunk of the new F150 seems like its more useful than the Rivian frunk. Much lower load height as well since the front of the hood can open up more.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by homebucket

Yeah the frunk of the new F150 seems like its more useful than the Rivian frunk. Much lower load height as well since the front of the hood can open up more.

I think the liftover issue is a bit of a miss on Rivian's part in that it will make it difficult to place heavier items into it without risking damage to the front of the truck. Last thing you want is a big scratch in the middle of the front fascia because a heavy item slipped as you were heaving it over the 'wall'. Maybe the thought was that you'd be putting those heavier items in the bed.

[Truenorth00]

The R1T has the gear tunnel too. That's pretty cool.

[WarrenC12]

I loved the idea of the Frunk on my Tesla 3 but it doesn't get a ton of use, because the trunk is just easier.

The concept is perfect for a truck though, and the F150 "flat" entry is perfect. Great spot to sit and hang out too.

[rofina]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

The R1T has the gear tunnel too. That's pretty cool.

Love that. And love how they have a slide out stove/camping set up that can fit in there.

Its a killer adventure truck.

Cant wait to pick up a second or third gen of these, or Cybertruck, or perhaps even a legacy automakers offering if compelling in the coming decade.

[canucklehead2]

I'm no huge fan of large cars or trucks being a Smart Fortwo owner however I am excited to buy a Cybertruck in the next few years. I lived only 5 minutes and 2 clicks from work so I didn't need a huge car at the time but now as a digital nomad I'm wanting the greenest option that could tow an airstream or tent trailer or out a bed in the vault. Plus the unique style appeals to my aesthetic.

[Truenorth00]

Yet more news of the Chinese EV invasion into Europe.

• Video Link

Look at the quality of what they're building.

I'm starting to get genuinely worried about the Big 3. They are just not moving fast enough. It's getting obvious that the argument they can catch up is bunk. They aren't investing enough to build battery factories. They are years behind on software. Almost a decade behind on battery tech. They are also loaded up with debt and need the profits from existing sales just to survive. They are quickly heading for a wall.

Think of Ford, for example. They sell over a million F150s. In 2026, they will only have the ability to put out 150k F150 Lightnings per year. Tesla will have the ability to put out a million Cybertrucks annually by then. Those Cybertrucks will weigh less, be aerodynamic and require less batteries for longer range, and therefore cost less. Given how much Ford relies on F150 profits, if even 10% of their customers defect or decide to delay purchases waiting for an electric F150 (which makes less profit anyway) Ford will be in big trouble.

And between Tesla at the top end and the Chinese EV makers at the bottom end, the legacy automakers are really, really in trouble. Once that US$25 000 EV drops in a few years, I expect sales of Civics, Corollas, Camrys, Accords, Focuses, Priuses, etc to collapse. Tesla is going to be the Apple of the auto sector taking most of the profits with a small portion of sales. The Chinese OEMs and a handful of European carmakers look set to be the Androids of the automarket with volume but low profit. Detroit is going to be broke.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Yet more news of the Chinese EV invasion into Europe.

• Video Link

Look at the quality of what they're building.

I'm starting to get genuinely worried about the Big 3. They are just not moving fast enough. It's getting obvious that the argument they can catch up is bunk. They aren't investing enough to build battery factories. They are years behind on software. Almost a decade behind on battery tech. They are also loaded up with debt and need the profits from existing sales just to survive. They are quickly heading for a wall.

Think of Ford, for example. They sell over a million F150s. In 2026, they will only have the ability to put out 150k F150 Lightnings per year. Tesla will have the ability to put out a million Cybertrucks annually by then. Those Cybertrucks will weigh less, be aerodynamic and require less batteries for longer range, and therefore cost less. Given how much Ford relies on F150 profits, if even 10% of their customers defect or decide to delay purchases waiting for an electric F150 (which makes less profit anyway) Ford will be in big trouble.

And between Tesla at the top end and the Chinese EV makers at the bottom end, the legacy automakers are really, really in trouble. Once that US$25 000 EV drops in a few years, I expect sales of Civics, Corollas, Camrys, Accords, Focuses, Priuses, etc to collapse. Tesla is going to be the Apple of the auto sector taking most of the profits with a small portion of sales. The Chinese OEMs and a handful of European carmakers look set to be the Androids of the automarket with volume but low profit. Detroit is going to be broke.

I wonder if Tesla will take advantage of their insanely high stock price to do a hostile takeover of Ford or GM, to put them out of their misery. I honestly wonder if that's what all the people betting on Tesla stock are expecting. I don't see how else the company is supposed to have a trillion dollar valuation.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I wonder if Tesla will take advantage of their insanely high stock price to do a hostile takeover of Ford or GM, to put them out of their misery. I honestly wonder if that's what all the people betting on Tesla stock are expecting. I don't see how else the company is supposed to have a trillion dollar valuation.

Ford and GM literally have nothing to offer Tesla. They don't need Ford or GM's supply chain. They don't need their talent. They most certainly don't want their unions or all their old plants designed around building ICE vehicles. They'll wait for bankruptcy and pick at the carcass.

To give an example of the difference in mentality, just look at what Tesla did with the Giga Press. They commissioned one of the largest high pressure die casting machines in the world and developed their own aluminum alloy that doesn't require heat treatment, just so they can make the back part of the chassis in one piece. They went from 70 pieces to one. And because of developments like this, their new plant in Berlin will apparently be able to put out a vehicle every 45 seconds, with one third the manufacturing time of what Volkswagen needs for a comparable vehicle. Tesla's Berlin factory is jokingly referred to by fans, as an alien dreadnought.

Ask yourself why none of the legacy automakers made the same investments in their manufacturing processes and why they aren't doing so right now? They talk a lot about all the EVs they are going to build and how they'll transform over the next decade or even two in some cases (see Toyota). Meanwhile Tesla puts up factories in months that have the auto manufacturing capacity of entire companies or countries, and each one is more automated, with better output quality than the last one.

And like I said earlier, Tesla isn't the only one. There's a whole pack of others following behind.