Why is São Paulo seemingly a non-event outside of Brazil?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

But just counting domestic vs international makes less sense because some countries have larger populations and land areas than others. A visitor to Chicago from LA or Quebec City from Calgary is probably committing just as much money, time and effort as someone visiting Paris from Brussels.

Exactly, which is precisely why I chose to phrase it that way: “visitors from away”. See the original post:

Originally Posted by lio45

Honestly, having no dog in the SP-vs-Rio right at all, I would say the most reasonable metric to judge how great a given carnival is would be the total number of individuals coming from away to attend it — not counting anyone twice.

I realize I used the word “foreigners” in the other part of the post but I always totally intended that word as the antonym of “locals”. To me, when I wrote that, I was saying that “people who are foreign to São Paulo” coming from wherever distant area they live in are actual visitors attracted, even if they’re Brazilians. Forgive my imperfect ESL skills; I actually should have been aware the default meaning is “people who live in / hold citizenship of a different country from the one being discussed”. I trust it was clear in my argument that the metric I care about is effort expended to go there, not whether an imaginary line was crossed.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

Exactly, which is precisely why I chose to phrase it that way: “visitors from away”. See the original post:



I realize I used the word “foreigners” in the other part of the post but I always totally intended that word as the antonym of “locals”. To me, when I wrote that, I was saying that “people who are foreign to São Paulo” coming from wherever distant area they live in are actual visitors attracted, even if they’re Brazilians. Forgive my imperfect ESL skills; I actually should have been aware the default meaning is “people who live in / hold citizenship of a different country from the one being discussed”. I trust it was clear in my argument that the metric I care about is effort expended to go there, not whether an imaginary line was crossed.

The biggest "tourist" attraction in my metropolitan area is the Casino du Lac-Leamy, not the majestic neo-gothic Canadian Parliament Buildings in Ottawa or what is arguably Canada's best museum (Canadian Museum of History) in Gatineau.

[Crawford]

I'm almost certain that Parliament Hill is Ottawa's most well-known tourist attraction for non-Canadians. Never heard of those other places.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I'm almost certain that Parliament Hill is Ottawa's most well-known tourist attraction for non-Canadians. Never heard of those other places.

Most definitely.

[muppet]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

So far, the only people who find it controversial that Rio is a better urban experience than SP are people who haven't ever been to Brazil, and the one person who lives in São Paulo.

OMG guys, no one is saying Rio isn't the bold and beautiful of the region, outshining all else, but that doesn't mean the rest is unworthy. Time and time again the goalposts shift. Could we get a consensus going? To recap, what points are we making?

Is it:

1. SP is better than Rio

2. Rio is better than SP

3. SP has nothing to do with Rio, but enshadowed -in price, in fame, in offerings and market accessibility

4. SP is a party town and holds the world's biggest (which is in answer to what makes it unique)

5. But those official figures are suspect. Google says otherwise. They're being counted multiple times.

6. But SP is not famed as a party town

7. But Rio has the more famous carnival anyway

8. Thus it's better

9. The one in Bahia is best anyway I've heard

10. Differentiating between domestic and foreign visitors would be akin to counting commuters, and something something about lemonade stands

11. Paulistanos have a reputation for being buttoned up

12. SP isn't even the Brazilian Ibiza

13. You've never been there

14. We've never been there

15. Actually I've been there and I didn't like it.

16. The one person who comes from there is likely biased

17. The biggest party city (or biggest anything) doesn't mean I want to go there, or that it's just that I'm going for, and other cities have other stuff too

18. Zocalo is one of the biggest attractions because many people live nearby

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by muppet

OMG guys, no one is saying Rio isn't the bold and beautiful of the region, outshining all else, but that doesn't mean the rest is unworthy. Time and time again the goalposts shift. Could we get a consensus going? To recap, what points are we making?

No one is shifting goalposts on this side lol. I said that I wouldn't recommend making São Paulo the focal point of a trip to Brazil. I also said that I was underwhelmed by SP as a megacity. I never once said that people shouldn't visit SP, so you're putting words into my mouth.

[muppet]

ok fine, but I mean cmawn. All this starts by my saying SP is unique for the size of its parties -the world's largest - and I'm not mentioning the architecture or food, the arts or even people -and it's a barrage of of naysaying and claims from that one point. I wouldn't even ask someone to make SP the be all and end all, but as a city it does exist as a valid destination in its own right (regardless of Rio -the R Word).

And ihearted you have every right to be underwhelmed and for your own experience and opinions -absolutely valid as anyone else's -but I think in the context of this thread it's become like gospel to other readers, as a bandwagon fallacy (not your intent of course), through no fault of your own.

I believe strongly there is always more to a place/ subject/ theory than the one viewpoint, if we can find it.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by muppet

ok fine, but I mean cmawn. All this starts by my saying SP is unique for the size of its parties -the world's largest - and I'm not mentioning the architecture or food, the arts or even people -and it's a barrage of of naysaying and claims from that one point. I wouldn't even ask someone to make SP the be all and end all, but as a city it does exist as a valid destination in its own right (regardless of Rio -the R Word).

And ihearted you have every right to be underwhelmed and for your own experience and opinions -absolutely valid as anyone else's -but I think in the context of this thread it's become like gospel to other readers, as a bandwagon fallacy (not your intent of course), through no fault of your own.

I believe strongly there is always more to a place/ subject/ theory than the one viewpoint, if we can find it.

The topic of the thread is discussing why São Paulo is overlooked by outsiders. We're answering the question.

[muppet]

Yes, as am I

[lio45]

#4, #5, #10, #18 are four different phrasings of the exact same point, which we can rephrase a fifth time while at it: “total yearly visitor numbers are telling Crawford that contrary to what he thought, Casino du Lac-Leamy is Greater Ottawa’s top tourist magnet, not Parliament Hill”.

[Nouvellecosse]

Originally Posted by lio45

Exactly, which is precisely why I chose to phrase it that way: “visitors from away”. See the original post:



I realize I used the word “foreigners” in the other part of the post but I always totally intended that word as the antonym of “locals”. To me, when I wrote that, I was saying that “people who are foreign to São Paulo” coming from wherever distant area they live in are actual visitors attracted, even if they’re Brazilians. Forgive my imperfect ESL skills; I actually should have been aware the default meaning is “people who live in / hold citizenship of a different country from the one being discussed”. I trust it was clear in my argument that the metric I care about is effort expended to go there, not whether an imaginary line was crossed.

I didn't mean to direct my comment specifically at you but more at the general topic. But very good. I accept your explanation.

[streetscaper]

Originally Posted by muppet

OMG guys, no one is saying Rio isn't the bold and beautiful of the region, outshining all else, but that doesn't mean the rest is unworthy.

Originally Posted by muppet

and it's a barrage of of naysaying and claims from that one point. I wouldn't even ask someone to make SP the be all and end all, but as a city it does exist as a valid destination in its own right (regardless of Rio -the R Word).

And ihearted you have every right to be underwhelmed and for your own experience and opinions -absolutely valid as anyone else's -but I think in the context of this thread it's become like gospel to other readers, as a bandwagon fallacy (not your intent of course), through no fault of your own.

I believe strongly there is always more to a place/ subject/ theory than the one viewpoint, if we can find it.

Originally Posted by iheartthed

The topic of the thread is discussing why São Paulo is overlooked by outsiders. We're answering the question.

Originally Posted by iheartthed

No one is shifting goalposts on this side lol. I said that I wouldn't recommend making São Paulo the focal point of a trip to Brazil. I also said that I was underwhelmed by SP as a megacity. I never once said that people shouldn't visit SP, so you're putting words into my mouth.

Exactly! More strawmen.... I'm not saying SP is shitty. I had a decent time while there, but in the competition for global attention/tourists, I can see why SP doesn't necessarily come out towards the top for most people. For X,Y and Z reasons that have been described in this thread. Having been there, it's really not a mystery.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by muppet

Yes, as am I

I must've missed that then. Do you mind recapping why you think São Paulo is not regarded as a major tourist destination for non-Brazilians? Feel free to add some personal anecdotes from your trip(s) there.

[Lost Island]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Sao Paulo has always embodied the "endless sea of skyscrapers" image for me.

Hong Kong always legendary with its intense density...but in terms of sheer mass to the horizon? Sao. Paulo.

[muppet]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I must've missed that then. Do you mind recapping why you think São Paulo is not regarded as a major tourist destination for non-Brazilians? Feel free to add some personal anecdotes from your trip(s) there.

This:

Originally Posted by muppet

I think Rio is just too much of a stunner in terms of proximity -the world's most outlandish place to plonk a city. A bit like if you decided Ha Long bay was a great place to house 13 million people, with giant beaches and giant statues. Very few cities could ever compete with this:








Many great places suffer similar tales, like Philly overshadowed by NYC - great place, justifiably famed within its own country but largely ignored outside it. One could similarly say the same even as far as Chicago, which attracts a whopping 57 million overnighting tourists, pre-pandemic, but only 2 million being from abroad despite proximity to a border (Canada). On par with Dusseldorf or Bangalore, and despite the fact it's an utterly amazing city. Plonk Chicago -or Philly for that matter -in Europe and it would attract millions (though tbf it would then lose many of its domestic visitors to the Euro-competition).

Due to the geography of large countries sided by huge oceans, the expense of reaching them means the first choice invariably garners being the only choice.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I must've missed that then. Do you mind recapping why you think São Paulo is not regarded as a major tourist destination for non-Brazilians? Feel free to add some personal anecdotes from your trip(s) there.

Brazil only gets 5 million foreign tourists a year. So arguably Rio is in no way a big international destination either. Domestically, SP gets way more tourists anyway and they’re way more relevant because they’re way more numerous. But then you kept throwing your ignorant rant over SP for no reason whatsoever.

The thing is even for people in Rio, São Paulo is more interesting and they keep moving to there in droves. Rio is too conventional and of course, decaying.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by Crawford

People are "shockingly shallow" for not choosing to travel halfway around the world for an allegedly cool clubbing scene? Isn't that a pretty niche attraction? And pretty sure that woo wooing at house music clubs isn't the world's most cerebral activity.

Tel Aviv has a global rep for nightlife. I haven't heard SP mentioned in that capacity, but maybe it's the next big thing, or kind of hidden from the Anglosphere.

Are you really suggesting there are more nightlife options in Tel Aviv than in São Paulo?! SP has, by far, the biggest party scene, food scene and art scene in Latin America. Whether you know about it, that’s completely irrelevant.

You see, I’m shocked how people on SSP are not willing to learn new things as for me that’s the main point of this forum.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I'm very skeptical that SP's cultural scene is several times larger than Rio's. Rio seems like the cultural capital of Brazil... But I guess this is just a non-Brazilian's opinion lol.

Completely. Rio is trapped in the 60’s with a 00’s mindset. Just go out on the streets, on parties, what people wear, places they go out. Rio doesn’t come even closer to SP and it’s about to be overtaken by more imaginative places. Belo Horizonte party scene, for instance, has becoming increasingly more popular.

But of course Brazilian culture for you is samba (something completely strange for 99% of Brazilians), so ok, Rio fits you better. I guess the only thing the US has to offer is Disney World…

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

I went to Rio (but not Sao Paulo) a few years ago. Overall, I thought it was an awesome place - loved the geography, the cityscape, the history, the beaches, etc. - though just as far as nightlife & culture went, I did find it felt a little quieter than expected. Still, I think it's the type of city that's more easily digested for a week or two-long vacation. 

I can definitely see Sao Paulo being the better city to live in on the other hand - it's more culturally dynamic, better economy, safer, etc. But it's not necessarily a city that's well-suited for a quick visit. Moreso, it would be seasoned urban travellers looking for a different experience that's a little more off the beaten path that would be most drawn to Sao Paulo. The main challenge is that for those of us in North America or Europe who are into that sort of thing, it's just so far away. 





The Toronto-Montreal comparison (or Madrid-Barcelona) sometimes gets brought up as an analogue to Rio-Sao Paulo, which sort of works as a generally smaller & more tourist-friendly city vs a bigger & more diverse one comparison, but not much beyond that. Toronto & Montreal are a lot more obviously similar in terms of built form, geography, and climate than Rio & Sao Paulo; while on the other hand are more culturally distinct - one is the undisputed centre of Anglo Canada while the other of Franco Canada. 

Yeah, I clearly stated I wouldn’t say to somebody to take a 12h flight to visit SP (maybe not even Rio), unless if you’re an urban afficcionado. In that case, then SP might give you the best experience in the entire world. It’s a massive city with this Mediterranean party/street culture.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I'm not exactly sure of how much this plays into it, but there is a Carioca (Rio) vs Paulista (SP) culture at play in Brazil. Carioca culture is synonymous with the international image of Brazil. To my understanding, Paulistas are known to be more buttoned up... Something more analogous to New Englanders in the U.S., or Anglophone protestants in Canada.

In the 1990’s it might be, but today it’s definitely the other way round: just check on Instagram what young people dress in SP to go out and compare to Rio. In SP you see a diversity of fashion and styles that you don’t see even in cities like London or Berlin. In Rio, they’re still wearing polo shirts…

And of course, saying SP is “buttoned up” it’s like imagining all Londoners behave like the Queen.