PHILADELPHIA | Penn's Landing Redevelopment | 703 - 175 FT | 57 - 12 FLOORS

[tower]

excellent proposal, now all we need is a nice big ferris wheel (i for one loved the proposal with a ferris wheel)

[TK2001]

https://phillyyimby.com/2020/10/more...nter-city.html

[summersm343]

^^Thanks TK! These towers will look absolutely incredible, and will really help to extend Philly's skyline to the East.

These two show off the impact of this pretty nicely:

[Boku]

Penn's Landing developer Durst talks Philadelphia appeal for first project outside of New York

https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...investing.html

Local investment in the revitalization of the Delaware River waterfront helped lead the Durst Organization to Penn's Landing with a proposal to spend billions of its own money for its first project outside of New York.

The 100-year-old real estate firm was recently selected to develop Penn's Landing, laying out a $2.2 billion multi-year plan for a sweeping mixed-use project. Alexander Durst, chief development officer at the Durst Organization, said it was the quasi-public Delaware River Waterfront Corp. that attracted the company to the redevelopment opportunity.

DRWC’s master plan for the waterfront and public investments into projects like the Race Street Pier and Spruce Street Harbor Park helped leverage private investment in the area, he said. The Park at Penn’s Landing, a $225 million public park that will be created by capping a portion of Interstate 95 and is slated to open in 2024, also fits into how public and private organizations can complement each other, he said.

“It’s a good example of how public investment is spurring private investment,” Durst said.

The company first took notice of development opportunities in Philadelphia when responding to a request for proposals from Drexel University in 2014, Durst said. Philadelphia has the dense urban environment that Durst has been building in for decades, he said. The city's various development projects like Schuylkill Yards and a $200 million tower under development for Morgan Lewis in Center City help make Philadelphia appealing.

Durst also said twice as many New Yorkers are moving to Philadelphia than the reverse. He also noted Philadelphia's prime location along the Northeast corridor.

Durst recently spoke with Reporter Natalie Kostelni about the company's vision for the Philadelphia waterfront as part of the Business Journal’s Best Real Estate Deals awards program on Oct. 15.

The Durst Organization is spearheading three projects along the Delaware River.

The Penn’s Landing project is the centerpiece, with plans calling for 3.5 million square feet of mixed-use space, including thousands of new residential units, hundreds of hotel rooms and tens of thousands of square feet in retail space. The company is also redeveloping a group of piers near the Ben Franklin Bridge, which Durst said can be a significant development because of the potential zoning floor area at the site.

The third project is located at Vine Street on the west side of Delaware Avenue, where the company will spend another $250 million to $300 million to build a 370,000-square-foot mixed-use building on the vacant parcel, Durst said. The Vine Street project is in the permitting stages, and development will take place simultaneously with the Penn's Landing project, he said.

Philadelphia mirrors New York in that both cities have been working to transform industrial waterfront areas to residential and commercial zones, Durst said. The Durst Organization has had its hands in developing waterfront properties in Manhattan, including VIA 57 West and Historic Front Street. The trophy One Bryant Park and One World Trade Center are also in the company's portfolio.

“We feel like our experience pioneering urban revitalization in New York City gave us the experience and the wherewithal to carry a project like this out,” Durst said.

Officials hope the selection of the Durst Organization for Penn’s Landing caps a decades-long process to activate Philadelphia’s waterfront.

After a competitive bidding process, a selling point for DRWC in selecting the Durst Organization for Penn's Landing was that the company did not seek any subsidies. A plan from the Philadelphia 76ers for a new arena at Penn’s Landing took some heat for requesting use of the Neighborhood Improvement Zone program. It’s not uncommon for The Durst Organization to seek tax incentives or subsidies, Durst said, and the company is currently working on other projects supported by incentives.

The Penn’s Landing project has such a long timeline — and could be longer because of the Covid-19 pandemic — that there is a risk in negotiating for subsidies when conditions could change in government or the market during the length of the project, he said. Durst is expecting the Penn’s Landing development to take eight or nine years.

“We don’t want to promise something based on something that we would receive if the market conditions change,” Durst said. “It allows for a greater sort of freedom of what that final product will be.”

The Durst Organization also stays in projects longer than competitors, Durst said, allowing it to realize the financial benefits of projects longer. The company owns its developments, and a spokesman said last month that it takes a “generational approach” to the business.

The company is in the beginning of its negotiations with DRWC over timing and deal points of the project, Durst said. Both organizations are taking the effects of Covid-19 into account when planning, he said.

“We don’t want to put a lot of residences onto the market during a significant downturn of the economy,” Durst said. “That wouldn’t work well for DRWC, the city or for us, so we’re looking at that very closely.”

[summersm343]

^^Beat me to it.

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by PhillyDreamsReturns

Schuylkill Yards does a whole lot more talking than actual building. I’m losing confidence over there. I’m in camp Penn’s Landing now.

Same here! When SY was first proposed, I was in love with the entire proposal, from the Transit Tower to the supernal tower next to the SY building on 30th and Market to even a new intercity bus station. Nowadays, I'm pretty sure that many of those proposals won't get built, as the developers of SY keeps on changing the designs of the buildings to the point where I've lost complete faith that SY would ever get built as originally proposed.

The new Penn's Landing proposals are more realistic. The fact that two of it's towers will be taller than City Hall is a game changer for what's to come for the Delaware Waterfront as well as projects east of Broad St in CC. I've been bullish of other projects such as the American Commerce Center (still prefer it over the CITC) and the original Camden Warefront project but seeing this project gives me some hope for Philly and the Delaware waterfront.

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

^
If I were the Durst folks, I like to see Penn's Landing Park get built first before committing any serious money to their rights to develop the Waterfront. And, the Park is about 4 or 5 years out from being built, so to me it looks like SY developer will have all the momentum from now until 4 or 5 years into the future to get its vision built out.

It makes much more sense to develop the land first prior to cultivating a park. I'd like to see all the Penn's Landing towers get built since you have a lot of heavy machinery moving earth, debris and concrete. Placing a park prior to developing Penn's Landing sounds backwards to me.

And in addition to my comments, it would make this project even better if SEPTA was somehow able to expand the MFL to Penn's Landing. NYC expanded the 7 line from Times Square to Hudson Yards, and creating a loop spur between 2nd St and Penn's Landing would be perfect!

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by wanderer34

SAnd in addition to my comments, it would make this project even better if SEPTA was somehow able to expand the MFL to Penn's Landing. NYC expanded the 7 line from Times Square to Hudson Yards, and creating a loop spur between 2nd St and Penn's Landing would be perfect!

You can't be serious? In NY this makes sense. The distance from 8th Avenue (the further west subway) to 11 Avenue slash the West Side Highway (the Hudson River) is 3/4 to 1 mile depending on where you are. East West NY blocks between the avenues are about a quarter mile. In other words, Hudson Yards was a 15-20 minute walk from the closest subway.

Penns Landing is 2 Philadelphia Blocks from 2nd and Market. A Philadelphia block is 1/10th of a mile.

What a boondoggle suggestion.

It's not even a 5 minute walk from 2nd & Market over the bridge to Penns Landing.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by wanderer34

Same here! When SY was first proposed, I was in love with the entire proposal, from the Transit Tower to the supernal tower next to the SY building on 30th and Market to even a new intercity bus station. Nowadays, I'm pretty sure that many of those proposals won't get built, as the developers of SY keeps on changing the designs of the buildings to the point where I've lost complete faith that SY would ever get built as originally proposed.

The new Penn's Landing proposals are more realistic. The fact that two of it's towers will be taller than City Hall is a game changer for what's to come for the Delaware Waterfront as well as projects east of Broad St in CC. I've been bullish of other projects such as the American Commerce Center (still prefer it over the CITC) and the original Camden Warefront project but seeing this project gives me some hope for Philly and the Delaware waterfront.



It makes much more sense to develop the land first prior to cultivating a park. I'd like to see all the Penn's Landing towers get built since you have a lot of heavy machinery moving earth, debris and concrete. Placing a park prior to developing Penn's Landing sounds backwards to me.

And in addition to my comments, it would make this project even better if SEPTA was somehow able to expand the MFL to Penn's Landing. NYC expanded the 7 line from Times Square to Hudson Yards, and creating a loop spur between 2nd St and Penn's Landing would be perfect!

Wooo Wander you are speaking my language now, above ground El or underground depending where they start from and making it go towards the riverfront and then turn right now from there they could do two crazy things. Continue straight towards the Walmart and IKEA or continue down the riverfront till they get to south st and make it do a loop back to 2/front.

this is a rough copy but im sure you can imagine what im saying.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

You can't be serious? In NY this makes sense. The distance from 8th Avenue (the further west subway) to 11 Avenue slash the West Side Highway (the Hudson River) is 3/4 to 1 mile depending on where you are. East West NY blocks between the avenues are about a quarter mile. In other words, Hudson Yards was a 15-20 minute walk from the closest subway.

Penns Landing is 2 Philadelphia Blocks from 2nd and Market. A Philadelphia block is 1/10th of a mile.

What a boondoggle suggestion.

It's not even a 5 minute walk from 2nd & Market over the bridge to Penns Landing.

Agreed. I live on second street near market. Its a literally a 2 minute walk over the market street bridge. Of all the places I would put municiple funds, that would be the LAST place. It's all gonna be green space between Front and Penn's Landing anyway.

[JohnIII]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

You can't be serious? In NY this makes sense. The distance from 8th Avenue (the further west subway) to 11 Avenue slash the West Side Highway (the Hudson River) is 3/4 to 1 mile depending on where you are. East West NY blocks between the avenues are about a quarter mile. In other words, Hudson Yards was a 15-20 minute walk from the closest subway.

Penns Landing is 2 Philadelphia Blocks from 2nd and Market. A Philadelphia block is 1/10th of a mile.

What a boondoggle suggestion.

It's not even a 5 minute walk from 2nd & Market over the bridge to Penns Landing.

I tend to agree with your assessment for now for at present we have to see what is developed; many plans are made and not followed through and in this case even if 100% of the project is built justifying a new subway line for this location alone isn't suitable as of yet.

The topic of a subway on Delaware Avenue isn't a new idea; they had one years ago and to build one would open an important question; would it be above ground in an elevated line which was the way the old subway was or would it be below ground. If the subway were below ground then it would be more costly especially because what is now Delaware Avenue was once the banks of the Delaware River; must of it is landfill; and it would possible require historical excavation such as old ship yard docks from the 1700's and earlier fortification that still exist under the surface like a British Fort built for colonial Philadelphia near what was called Wicaco Lane but is now Washington Avenue; that fort is still there under the surface probably. If you build an Elevated Subway the same excavations may still take place but the subway may be cheaper to construct.

A subway on Delaware Avenue isn't a bad idea however I don't think the development at Penn's warrants it since its a 5 minute walk from Olde City; what I think would warrant it however is to run a subway all the way toward the Philadelphia Naval Yard and turn west just short of it so that it runs up Packer Avenue; this way residence in South Philadelphia who live east of 9th Street have better access to mass transit as well as th Port facilities; Liberty on the River; and Waterfront Boulevard will have mass transit access as well. A subway on Delaware Avenue in time may be justified but it may be early days yet.

[Vince_]

It would be more realistic to have light rail run on the current tracks on Delaware Ave from around the Fillmore to like Washington Ave. and have it turn on Washington Ave. and go west across the city. A dream scenario would include this crossing the river and connecting to U City and 30th St. Station.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by Vince_

It would be more realistic to have light rail run on the current tracks on Delaware Ave from around the Fillmore to like Washington Ave. and have it turn on Washington Ave. and go west across the city. A dream scenario would include this crossing the river and connecting to U City and 30th St. Station.

Could a Delaware ave Trolley Tye into the Underground Trolley at 15th?

Also didn't they run Trolley in that ROW on Delaware ave or was that a test run back in the day to see how well it would work?

[Nova08]

Originally Posted by TonyTone

Could a Delaware ave Trolley Tye into the Underground Trolley at 15th?

Also didn't they run Trolley in that ROW on Delaware ave or was that a test run back in the day to see how well it would work?

They did back in the early 90s at least. It seemed to be more of a tourist operation than anything else.

Any money spent towards mass transit along Penns Landing would be better served burying 95 all the way from the BFB to South St. It is pretty well connected as mentioned and any subway option would likely be in the billions. I thought there was a proposal for a surface trolley from center city or maybe Washington. A west end of Washington to Delaware/Frankford trolley could work, but what market does it serve. The north end has quicker access to CC from the el and the south end has quicker access from the BSL.

[TonyTone]

Originally Posted by Nova08

They did back in the early 90s at least. It seemed to be more of a tourist operation than anything else.

Any money spent towards mass transit along Penns Landing would be better served burying 95 all the way from the BFB to South St. It is pretty well connected as mentioned and any subway option would likely be in the billions. I thought there was a proposal for a surface trolley from center city or maybe Washington. A west end of Washington to Delaware/Frankford trolley could work, but what market does it serve. The north end has quicker access to CC from the el and the south end has quicker access from the BSL.

I think a trolley could serve the Riverfront area well especially with the new development coming, it would easily be used by anyone who's going out to the bars or shopping from the IKEA area to Fishtown shit people can even take it when they want to go to the Arena's or new Casino.

Just like Girard, Washington ave should have a Trolley, in the perfect world main roadways in the city would be served by Trolley or Sub, Buses are good for stretching across neighborhoods. The More dense a road the less cars we should allow on it so businesses and people can flourish.

That would open up a whole new corridor to a transportation option and it's weird they would remove the trolley on Delaware ave when it's actually booming now.

Someone posted an article on the Facebook philly page about a new bill that would give around 100 billion for highways to be dismantled and neighborhoods repaired.

Many people think I/95 should be dismantled and Delaware Ave and surrounding roads will disperse traffic.... That idea is so crazy it would destroy the east coasts trucking/traveling at least in the northeast. I really don't think I/95 messed up a lot, but then again I wasn't around when it wasn't there so Im speaking off of current time bias. However I do think they could have sunken it or built it farther inland maybe?

I do believe if any highway should be tunneled is 76 when you get off the Platt to UC when it elevates.

The highway separates so many roads and the hood in that area causing more damage removing it and reconnecting the roads in the area will greatly improve the area plus the new development at the old Refinery could turn that area into a Fishtown/UC Boom.

[iheartphilly]

While were at it, can we get that concrete monolith at Penn's landing to be something useful besides our own Stonehenge? Wasn't it once proposed to connect this part of Philly to Camden with a sky tram or something like that. We could have something like the Roosevelt Island tram that connects Manhattan to Roosevelt Island. Ours of course being Philly to Camden, vice versa.

[Vince_]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

While were at it, can we get that concrete monolith at Penn's landing to be something useful besides our own Stonehenge? Wasn't it once proposed to connect this part of Philly to Camden with a sky tram or something like that. We could have something like the Roosevelt Island tram that connects Manhattan to Roosevelt Island. Ours of course being Philly to Camden, vice versa.

That thing is gone. It would have been cool though and definitely linked the Camden and Philadelphia river fronts better. Plus the skyline views from up there would be amazing.



http://philaphilia.blogspot.com/2011_09_25_archive.html

[Nanyika]

Originally Posted by JohnIII

The topic of a subway on Delaware Avenue isn't a new idea; they had one years ago and to build one would open an important question; would it be above ground in an elevated line which was the way the old subway was or would it be below ground. If the subway were below ground then it would be more costly especially because what is now Delaware Avenue was once the banks of the Delaware River; must of it is landfill; and it would possible require historical excavation such as old ship yard docks from the 1700's and earlier fortification that still exist under the surface like a British Fort built for colonial Philadelphia near what was called Wicaco Lane but is now Washington Avenue; that fort is still there under the surface probably. If you build an Elevated Subway the same excavations may still take place but the subway may be cheaper to construct.

As an additional historical note, all of Delaware Ave., from Center City down to Washington Ave., was once open river. The banks of the river were inland at what became Water Street, now largely under I-95. The avenue was first created in the early 19th century by filling in the area between the wharves, and then widened at the end of the century. There is no danger of finding fortifications for the old fort under Delaware Avenue. The fort used to stand on a hill; later, the hill was leveled, and the soil and rocks were used to fill in the river in order to build Delaware Avenue in that vicinity.

I first heard about the old Delaware Avenue elevated line from my grandfather, who remembered it well. It was an extension of the Market St. subway, which used to branch off of what became the Frankford El (which it predated) at around Arch Street, make a big loop and run southward to a terminus station at South Street. It was used, of course, to connect with the ferries before the construction of the subway line running over the Bridge to Camden.

Finally, I was a bit surprised that Tony Tone had not heard about the tremendous amount of destruction that I-95 caused to some of Philadelphia’s most historic and picturesque neighborhoods. Several hundred houses from the 18th and early 19th century (as well as industrial buildings, churches, etc.) were demolished, and thousands of people were forced to move. The publicized plans showed that all of I-95 in Center City would be covered by a green park, but the work was never completed.

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by Vince_

It would be more realistic to have light rail run on the current tracks on Delaware Ave from around the Fillmore to like Washington Ave. and have it turn on Washington Ave. and go west across the city. A dream scenario would include this crossing the river and connecting to U City and 30th St. Station.

I don't have a problem with light rail, but I'd rather expand and renovate the current light rail system we have right now (the subway-surface system of West and Southwest Philadelphia) than erecting a light rail along Delaware Ave. Besides, I'd love to see the city expand it's heavy-rail subway system, but then again, that should've been done during the early 20th century until the 1960's.

Originally Posted by JohnIII

The topic of a subway on Delaware Avenue isn't a new idea; they had one years ago and to build one would open an important question; would it be above ground in an elevated line which was the way the old subway was or would it be below ground. If the subway were below ground then it would be more costly especially because what is now Delaware Avenue was once the banks of the Delaware River; must of it is landfill; and it would possible require historical excavation such as old ship yard docks from the 1700's and earlier fortification that still exist under the surface like a British Fort built for colonial Philadelphia near what was called Wicaco Lane but is now Washington Avenue; that fort is still there under the surface probably. If you build an Elevated Subway the same excavations may still take place but the subway may be cheaper to construct.

My suggestion of extending the MFL into Penn's Landing was specifically as a spur being extended to South Street. I could see two stops along I-95, and both stops would be underground, not elevated. I don't believe having a stop along Penn's Landing is superfluous, the stops need to be spaced evenly to support the frequencies of the service, which is why I'd place one stop between Chestnut and Walnut, and another stop on South St, not does that make any sense?

Originally Posted by JohnIII

A subway on Delaware Avenue isn't a bad idea however I don't think the development at Penn's warrants it since its a 5 minute walk from Olde City; what I think would warrant it however is to run a subway all the way toward the Philadelphia Naval Yard and turn west just short of it so that it runs up Packer Avenue; this way residence in South Philadelphia who live east of 9th Street have better access to mass transit as well as th Port facilities; Liberty on the River; and Waterfront Boulevard will have mass transit access as well. A subway on Delaware Avenue in time may be justified but it may be early days yet.

I don't think a subway along Columbus Blvd is a bad idea neither, but I'm not sure how line from 2nd St on the MFL via South Columbus Blvd to Packer Ave is going to work, considering that most lines not just in Philly, but in NYC, Chicago, Boston, et. al., usually go north to south and east to west. Who knows, all I know is that it would've been better had the subway system been built during much of the 20th century, when we peaked at 2.2 million people than today, when we're still struggling with how to create and provide subway service, let alone regional rail service to the far flung communities such as Allentown, Reading, Lancaster, and West Chester.

[JohnIII]

Originally Posted by Nanyika

As an additional historical note, all of Delaware Ave., from Center City down to Washington Ave., was once open river. The banks of the river were inland at what became Water Street, now largely under I-95. The avenue was first created in the early 19th century by filling in the area between the wharves, and then widened at the end of the century. There is no danger of finding fortifications for the old fort under Delaware Avenue. The fort used to stand on a hill; later, the hill was leveled, and the soil and rocks were used to fill in the river in order to build Delaware Avenue in that vicinity.

I first heard about the old Delaware Avenue elevated line from my grandfather, who remembered it well. It was an extension of the Market St. subway, which used to branch off of what became the Frankford El (which it predated) at around Arch Street, make a big loop and run southward to a terminus station at South Street. It was used, of course, to connect with the ferries before the construction of the subway line running over the Bridge to Camden.

Finally, I was a bit surprised that Tony Tone had not heard about the tremendous amount of destruction that I-95 caused to some of Philadelphia’s most historic and picturesque neighborhoods. Several hundred houses from the 18th and early 19th century (as well as industrial buildings, churches, etc.) were demolished, and thousands of people were forced to move. The publicized plans showed that all of I-95 in Center City would be covered by a green park, but the work was never completed.

At some point the only way we'll know if the colonial battery exist is if we look; maybe with ground penetrating radar.

Along the edge of the Delaware River were 2 fortifications; the Atwood Battery and the Association Battery; in all of my research I've never know either battery to be on a hill as much as it was on an outcrop into the river. many believe the colonial artillery batteries are below the surface of what is now Delaware Avenue or some point slightly east; as some point it'll be curious to see if there is anything left as well as to not just post a marker but to use history to add to the future importance of development in the area. This is one article you all may like.

https://preserveoldswedes.org/2015/03/the-battery/

[JohnIII]

Originally Posted by wanderer34

I don't have a problem with light rail, but I'd rather expand and renovate the current light rail system we have right now (the subway-surface system of West and Southwest Philadelphia) than erecting a light rail along Delaware Ave. Besides, I'd love to see the city expand it's heavy-rail subway system, but then again, that should've been done during the early 20th century until the 1960's.



My suggestion of extending the MFL into Penn's Landing was specifically as a spur being extended to South Street. I could see two stops along I-95, and both stops would be underground, not elevated. I don't believe having a stop along Penn's Landing is superfluous, the stops need to be spaced evenly to support the frequencies of the service, which is why I'd place one stop between Chestnut and Walnut, and another stop on South St, not does that make any sense?



I don't think a subway along Columbus Blvd is a bad idea neither, but I'm not sure how line from 2nd St on the MFL via South Columbus Blvd to Packer Ave is going to work, considering that most lines not just in Philly, but in NYC, Chicago, Boston, et. al., usually go north to south and east to west. Who knows, all I know is that it would've been better had the subway system been built during much of the 20th century, when we peaked at 2.2 million people than today, when we're still struggling with how to create and provide subway service, let alone regional rail service to the far flung communities such as Allentown, Reading, Lancaster, and West Chester.

I think the old Subway spur went to about South Street; however I think if a spur were built it should be longer; if development takes place along the waterfront you'll have new commuters in high-rises as well as current residential areas and new residents may help justify ridership and fund in time.

The consideration os trolleys on Delaware was done before and an elevated Subway is a thought; the only problem with trolleys is that they are at the mercy of automobile traffic at the cross streets and while it is cheaper the width of Delaware Avenue is to be considered; how do pedestrians access it easily through the traffic without hazard. Washington Avenue and Delaware Avenue aren't like Baltimore Avenue in that Baltimore Avenue is not a multi-lane road and the former is. While a Subway is more expensive it does have safety issues already addressed by pedestrian crossing over the roadway or below.

Yet to stay on topic all I can think of it development of skyscrapers because that will justify any mass transit construction.