GDP of the world metro areas

[New Brisavoine]

How can it be "off base" if it uses the same methodology for all cities? It's just your not used to seeing these figures, because you're used to MSA and CSA (which is way more off base, honestly, because the criteria for MSA and CSA have always been frankly silly... Palo Alto, CA not part of the San Francisco MSA, or Ontario, CA not part of the LA MSA, both only 30 miles from downtown SF and LA, shows the limitations of the MSA definition).

[Yuri]

Yet this list brings MSAs for Boston, Detroit and Cleveland, areas where they're clearly undersized.

[fleonzo]

Originally Posted by Yuri

Yet this list brings MSAs for Boston, Detroit and Cleveland, areas where they're clearly undersized.

Exactly but apparently the original poster doesn’t seem to get it….

[New Brisavoine]

How can they be "undersized" if the same methodology is used for every city? It's just that these more distant areas (like Providence for Boston) simply have too little commuting relationship to the core area to enter the metro area. If Boston is "undersized", then the people of Brussels could say that Brussels is "undersized" by not including Antwerp, the people of Amsterdam could say Amsterdam is "undersized" by not including Utrecht, etc. It's never ending.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

How can they be "undersized" if the same methodology is used for every city? It's just that these more distant areas (like Providence for Boston) simply have too little commuting relationship to the core area to enter the metro area. If Boston is "undersized", then the people of Brussels could say that Brussels is "undersized" by not including Antwerp, the people of Amsterdam could say Amsterdam is "undersized" by not including Utrecht, etc. It's never ending.

Well, the list brought Washington-Baltimore which is analogous to Boston-Providence. In any case, I was not talking about Providence, but Worcester MSA and Nashua MSA which are clearly "Boston metro area" (a 6 million people region). Detroit and Ann Arbor are fully merged, as Cleveland and Akron.

And the problem here is the consistency. You can work with strict or broader definitions. I like both. You cannot mix broad and strict definitions (and even city proper) on a same list though. And here we're not even discussing differences between different continents: you have inconsistencies inside the same country.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Yuri

Well, the list brought Washington-Baltimore which is analogous to Boston-Providence.

Obviously it isn't, otherwise they wouldn't have included Baltimore. Baltimore must have more than 15% of its residents commuting to DC, and Providence less than 15% commuting to Boston. Also, Baltimore is closer to DC than Providence to Boston.

Originally Posted by Yuri

Detroit and Ann Arbor are fully merged, as Cleveland and Akron.

The FUA is not based on the old definition of urban areas. I already explained that. Brussels and Ghent and Antwerp are treated as separated FUAs, even if there is continuous urbanization between them. Same for Düsseldorf vs Ruhr, etc.

[fleonzo]

"And the problem here is the consistency. You can work with strict or broader definitions. I like both. You cannot mix broad and strict definitions (and even city proper) on a same list though. And here we're not even discussing differences between different continents: you have inconsistencies inside the same country."

_______________________________________________________________

BINGO!!! That's what I've been trying to say too but you said it perfectly here Yuri!!

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Obviously it isn't, otherwise they wouldn't have included Baltimore. Baltimore must have more than 15% of its residents commuting to DC, and Providence less than 15% commuting to Boston. Also, Baltimore is closer to DC than Providence to Boston.

No, they have more than 15%, otherwise they wouldn't be included inside Boston CSA (8.5 million people).

And I'm pretty sure US Census Bureau knows more about this than this FUA person.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The FUA is not based on the old definition of urban areas. I already explained that. Brussels and Ghent and Antwerp are treated as separated FUAs, even if there is continuous urbanization between them. Same for Düsseldorf vs Ruhr, etc.

As I said, the problem is the coherence. And even Europe you don't have it. It's people commuting into Paris city proper or into Ilê-de-France? It's tiny French communes or big German Kreise used as reference?

[Crawford]

I've never heard of "FUA," but it's bullshit.

Wuppertal not being included in Ruhr is like Oakland not being included in Bay Area. It's completely arbitrary. They're basically defining the Ruhr as greater Essen, which isn't a thing. The Ruhr, or Rhein-Ruhr, includes much more than Essen and environs.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

How can it be "off base" if it uses the same methodology for all cities? It's just your not used to seeing these figures, because you're used to MSA and CSA (which is way more off base, honestly, because the criteria for MSA and CSA have always been frankly silly... Palo Alto, CA not part of the San Francisco MSA, or Ontario, CA not part of the LA MSA, both only 30 miles from downtown SF and LA, shows the limitations of the MSA definition).

The Bay Area as two seperate MSA's makes no sense. I am closer to SJ than I am SF but am part of the SF MSA. The SF 49'ers play in the SJ area. SFO is the main airport for everyone here and people from all over commute all over.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I've never heard of "FUA," but it's bullshit.

It's the unified statistical methodology for international comparisons of metro areas. Whether you like it or not, that's the one you'll see increasingly in the coming years. It's already the one used by OECD, Eurostat, and various other organizations and statistical offices. MSA/CSA are only used in the US.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by JManc

The Bay Area as two seperate MSA's makes no sense. I am closer to SJ than I am SF but am part of the SF MSA. The SF 49'ers play in the SJ area. SFO is the main airport for everyone here and people from all over commute all over.

Yes, exactly.

[New Brisavoine]

Originally Posted by Yuri

No, they have more than 15%, otherwise they wouldn't be included inside Boston CSA (8.5 million people).

Commuter flows in the CSA are counted both ways. It's more than 15% both ways (from Boston to Providence + from Providence to Boston). In the FUA the commuter flows are counted only from the periphery to the central area.

Originally Posted by Yuri

As I said, the problem is the coherence. And even Europe you don't have it. It's people commuting into Paris city proper or into Ilê-de-France?

It's people commuting into the central core of Paris, which is City of Paris plus a certain number of suburbs of Paris (but not the entire urban area of Paris). For example Goussainville and Les Mureaux are part of the urban area of Paris, but they are not part of the core area of Paris used to define the FUA of Paris (but they are part of the FUA of Paris because more than 15% of their residents in employment commute to the core area of Paris).

The FUA of Paris is made up of the core area of Paris, plus some other core areas that could have been their own FUAs but which are included in the FUA of Paris because more than 15% of their residents commute to the core area of Paris (such as Meaux, Melun, Mantes-la-Jolie, Creil), plus some municipalities that are outside of core areas and more than 15% of whose residents commute to the core area of Paris (such as Goussainville and Les Mureaux, or exurbs like Marolles-en-Hurepoix, Crépy-en-Valois, etc).

The FUA of Paris (within its 2020 borders) had 11,729,644 inhabitants in 1999, and it reached 13,125,142 inhabitants in 2020.

[Obadno]

My dsert rat shithole has been moving on up! MOVIN ON UP

We're coming for you all be afraid.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

Commuter flows in the CSA are counted both ways. It's more than 15% both ways (from Boston to Providence + from Providence to Boston). In the FUA the commuter flows are counted only from the periphery to the central area.

15% of people inside Baltimore MSA commute into Washington MSA? I'd like to see those stats as I find it hard to believe.

In any case, it's obvious both ways are the right thing to count. Lots of people work on the periphery, being on industrial plants or suburban office complexes. Urban areas are much more complex now.

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

It's people commuting into the central core of Paris, which is City of Paris plus a certain number of suburbs of Paris (but not the entire urban area of Paris). For example Goussainville and Les Mureaux are part of the urban area of Paris, but they are not part of the core area of Paris used to define the FUA of Paris (but they are part of the FUA of Paris because more than 15% of their residents in employment commute to the core area of Paris).

The FUA of Paris is made up of the core area of Paris, plus some other core areas that could have been their own FUAs but which are included in the FUA of Paris because more than 15% of their residents commute to the core area of Paris (such as Meaux, Melun, Mantes-la-Jolie, Creil), plus some municipalities that are outside of core areas and more than 15% of whose residents commute to the core area of Paris (such as Goussainville and Les Mureaux, or exurbs like Marolles-en-Hurepoix, Crépy-en-Valois, etc).

The FUA of Paris (within its 2020 borders) had 11,729,644 inhabitants in 1999, and it reached 13,125,142 inhabitants in 2020.

In other words, they arbitrarily decide what "Paris" is and then they count how many people from arbitrarily designed jurisdictions commute into this arbitrary Paris. It doesn't sound very scientific and it's hardly comparable to countries where administrative divisions are widely different like Germany or the US.

[cabasse]

it does make some bit of sense IMO. there is probably very little center to periphery commuting going on in cities outside north america. counting only commuting into the center levels the playing field for purposes of comparison with the rest of the world.

[dimondpark]

Right, so most data gathering entities NEVER present the Bay Area this way , but not including the Central Valley and Santa Cruz(they are in the CSA), but the actual Bay Area in the minds of locals are 9 counties: Alameda, Contra Costa, Marin, Napa, San Francisco, San Mateo, Santa Clara, Solano and Sonoma.

In 2021, according to bea.gov, that came out to a GDP $1.158T for 7.6 million people.

[New Brisavoine]

The San Francisco FUA is made up of 7 counties: Alameda, Contra Costa, Marin, San Benito, San Francisco, San Mateo, Santa Clara. Napa is a separate FUA. Sonoma is a separate FUA. Solano is part of no FUA.

[dimondpark]

Originally Posted by New Brisavoine

The San Francisco FUA is made up of 7 counties: Alameda, Contra Costa, Marin, San Benito, San Francisco, San Mateo, Santa Clara. Napa is a separate FUA. Sonoma is a separate FUA. Solano is part of no FUA.

Never heard of an 'FUA' and as I stated Im referring to what locals call the Bay Area:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Bay_Area