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Originally Posted by hammersklavier
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This is silly, simplistic non-logic. Penn Station handles twice the traffic of Grand Central yet with 1/7 the track capacity, yet Grand Central has some major congestion issues, and is adding eight tracks. Most of the major European terminals have twice as many tracks as Penn yet half the ridership and significant peak congestion issues. Congestion is far more complex than a passenger-track ratio. It's timing, capacity, equipment, passenger flow, etc.
If Tokyo Station is truly able to carry 1.5 million daily passengers disembarking on 20 tracks, good for them, they must have heavy traffic at odd hours. It doesn't mean Penn doesn't have terrible track congestion issues.
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier
The problem is that it is three agencies. In nearly every other city in the developed world, the central station is served by two agencies: the intercity rail provider (i.e. Amtrak) and a single commuter rail provider. The point here is that NJT, the LIRR, and the MNRR should all be unified into a single commuter rail system under MTA aegis.
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This is dumb. The MTA is already a unified agency and is horribly inefficient, far more inefficient than pre-merger. And you just mentioned Tokyo, which is the wild west, with no consolidation. Amtrak can't be merged. NJ Transit can't be merged, and simply merging would do nothing for congestion.
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier
We just falsified the claim that it needs additional tracks,
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Correction, you just made the crazy claim that Penn doesn't need additional tracks, directly contradicting pretty much everyone with professional knowledge of Penn, and refuting the underlying logic of billions of investment over time to expand track capacity. Essentially you're calling the MTA, Amtrak and NJT liars or idiots, because they're planing 16 new tracks (8 by MTA, 8 by Amtrak, and tens of billions of related investment). Why would all these leaders from all these agencies engage in such efforts for no discernible reason?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hammersklavier
and we just discussed the problem with one too many agencies competing for space at NYP.
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There is no such issue. There is no "competing"; they have reserved track rights which default to the other agencies when unused. If an Acela is late a NJT can slide in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hammersklavier
Incidentally, you will also notice that there are only two agencies at nearly every other central station in North America: Boston, Philadelphia, Chicago, Toronto, Montréal, Los Angeles all come to mind here.
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Wrong. Chicago has, for example, Amtrak, Metra and South Shore Line. Philly has SEPTA, Amtrak and NJT. All have at least two agencies.
And these stations don't lack congestion issues because they have fewer agencies; they lack congestion issues because their collective ridership combined doesn't come close to Penn. Penn is the busiest station in the western world, but with (relatively) few tracks. Outside of Japan there's no equivalent.
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier
In other words, the complaints are that the powers-that-be have no fucking clue whatsoever what the real problems are and how to resolve them. Clearly, neither do you.
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Yes, every transit expert on earth is an idiot. Only random internet commentators know the truth about Penn congestion. Why won't they see the light!
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier
You need to fix Penn Station's (and New York's mass transit's in general) organizational problems before you start digging, because it's only after you've implemented bureaucratic and technical fixes that you know where the physical infrastructure problems really lay.
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So your wacky claim is that there should be no transit improvements whatsoever allowed until the MTA somehow illegally merges with NJT and Amtrak (and I assume ConnDOT, the PA, SEPTA and every other agency within 100 miles). In other words, you want nothing to ever happen, because the MTA will never be fixed. It has been a mess for 70 years.
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier
Do you need to be sent back to remedial school or something? This flies in the face of the most basic reason why German cities have S-Bahnen, Madrid its Cercanías, Paris the RER, London built Crossrail and is already planning Crossrail 2, and Melbourne is even building its own Crossrail scheme, namely that through-running allows for superior equipment optimization, especially at rush hour.
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A. Most of these systems aren't through-running, B. None of these systems have ridership or employment patterns analogous to Penn, C. Most of these systems have multiple agencies. S-Bahn is a completely separate agency from U-Bahn. D. Suburban rail core functionality in Europe is analogous to express train subway functionality in NYC. So total fail.
There is no "through-running" issue. There is a capacity issue from the west. Running trains from the west to Long Island doesn't do a thing for trains from the west. It would actually make congestion worse, because those trains are already conveniently parked next to Penn, in a giant underground yard, and your solution is to send them east, therefore screwing up the East River crossings too. The issue isn't storing trains, it's moving passengers in and out of Penn from the west. And the trains from the west can't be used to the east, nor are they needed in that directional during peak hours.
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Originally Posted by hammersklavier
We've already established that a ten-year-old brimful of questions probably knows more about the issues at hand than you do, so what's the point of comparing large coach yards a well-designed through-running scheme would render obsolete at a stroke?
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Ah, so only you and a 10-yo understand the problems at Penn. The MTA, Amtrak and NJT have no clue. Somehow there would be greater "efficiencies" of through running, even though the laws, equipment, union rules don't allow it, and even though the problem is rush-hour inbound congestion, so irrelevant to through-running? The things one "learns" on the internet.
If you think all the bureaucrats all the agencies are so dumb, send in your resume and give them your thoughts. Tell them to send trains across the East River to fix Hudson River congestion. Tell them NJ commuters to Manhattan need empty through trains to LI. And tell them the MTA isn't quite large, unwieldy or bureaucratic enough. And tell them you'll save them $50 billion or so collectively. No doubt they'll have a hearty laugh.
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