Transit Fantasies

[mcj]

Originally Posted by Helvetia

I always have to remind myself that people actually live in Fort Langley and it's not just the historic fort building used for school field trips

And maybe 5 of those people take transit every once in a while

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by jbrizzy

Regarding Expo Line splitting, Translink's plan is to short-turn trains at King George and not run all Surrey-bound trains through to Langley. A King George Blvd extension is also mentioned in the Transport 2050 plans, which would presumably be a branch off the Expo Line, and take the trains that would otherwise have been short-turned at King George.

I looked and couldn't find any comments from TransLink about splitting the Expo Line in Surrey - only from Surrey's former mayor before the last election. Sure TransLink will look into adding Skytrain to King George, just like they will with any really busy route in Metro Van. For the time being the RapidBus on King George will get upgraded to BRT and extended south beyond Newton.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

For Surrey, it seems like two north-south lines (KGB and 120th), one diagonal line (Langley), and one east-west line (104 to Guildford) are all tentatively planned for the distant, distant future. It only makes sense to not branch the Expo line at all, and connect KGB and Guildford as one L-shaped line and Langley and 120th as one 45-degree line. That would turn King George Station into a true hub for the Expo line terminus, two SoF-only lines, and a number of local bus routes.

And while we're in fantasy territory, why not run the Guildford line down the TCH median for awhile to serve Walnut Grove and Fort Langley and even throw a bridge in to connect with the WCE at Port Haney. All of this construction SoF would really establish a comprehensive transit network that doesn't just serve Vancouver, and provide Surrey with transit service worthy of the region's largest city

More like RapidBus / BRT routes are being planned (throughout the region and not just in Surrey) as that way TransLink can do more routes quickly with less money.

In the distant future King George will get some love due to both geography (Scott Road hill is a problem) and ridership (104th isn't as busy - and that's from TransLink).

So what I think we'll see in the next 10 - 20 years is a lot more FTN and RapidBus routes SoF. As Surrey Central is being built out as the downtown for the SoF region I have no doubt it will become the main hub for routes - although I really hope they start to shift away from a hub & spoke layout to something more grid-like.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I looked and couldn't find any comments from TransLink about splitting the Expo Line in Surrey - only from Surrey's former mayor before the last election. Sure TransLink will look into adding Skytrain to King George, just like they will with any really busy route in Metro Van. For the time being the RapidBus on King George will get upgraded to BRT and extended south beyond Newton.

I would group a KGB Skytrain in with 41/49. I imagine both will be the next priorities after North Shore and UBC. Considering that North Shore could be built out over a couple phases, KGB Skytrain likely won't even be in the planning phase until 2040 or later.

But once KGB Skytrain is built, Translink will need to decide how to manage Expo line connections. So no, branching SoF is not a concern in the near future, but it will be once more lines are added to Surrey.

Originally Posted by Sheba

So what I think we'll see in the next 10 - 20 years is a lot more FTN and RapidBus routes SoF. As Surrey Central is being built out as the downtown for the SoF region I have no doubt it will become the main hub for routes - although I really hope they start to shift away from a hub & spoke layout to something more grid-like.

By the conclusion of the 2050 plan I would bet we will have:

• Skytrain to UBC
• Skytrain from Metrotown to Park Royal, plus a branch down Hastings
• True BRT on KGB to Whiterock, 41/49 from Metrotown to UBC, and from Surrey Central to Guildford
• Plans for a KGB Skytrain line

As for the grid layout, if all the FTN routes are laid out according to Transport 2050, you will have North/South on 120, KGB, and 152, and East/West on 104, 96, 88, and 72. Vancouver won't be as grid-like, but at least another East/West connection in 41/49 and another North/South connection in Knight street are in the plans.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

But once KGB Skytrain is built, Translink will need to decide how to manage Expo line connections. So no, branching SoF is not a concern in the near future, but it will be once more lines are added to Surrey.


As for the grid layout, if all the FTN routes are laid out according to Transport 2050, you will have North/South on 120, KGB, and 152, and East/West on 104, 96, 88, and 72.

I'm with you on *not* splitting the Expo Line between Fraser Hwy and King George.

At the moment that aren't many east - west routes in most of the SoF. We need to see some before turning them into FTN routes.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by Sheba

In the distant future King George will get some love due to both geography (Scott Road hill is a problem) and ridership (104th isn't as busy - and that's from TransLink).

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

I would group a KGB Skytrain in with 41/49. I imagine both will be the next priorities after North Shore and UBC. Considering that North Shore could be built out over a couple phases, KGB Skytrain likely won't even be in the planning phase until 2040 or later.

I thought it would be interesting to see what the region had planned for this current era compared to what exists now, to sort of gauge how accurate we are at regional long term transportation planning. Doing some googling found the Transport 2021 plan.

From the Transport 2021 plan, KGB and 104th Ave are the only sections of the "Intermediate Capacity Transit System", i.e. Skytrain, that remain unbuilt or are not currently under construction.

If Farmer's prediction comes true, it would mean that the KGB/104th Ave Skytrain has had to wait nearly a half century to take the next step off the official drawing board.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by mcj

I thought it would be interesting to see what the region had planned for this current era compared to what exists now, to sort of gauge how accurate we are at regional long term transportation planning. Doing some googling found the Transport 2021 plan.

From the Transport 2021 plan, KGB and 104th Ave are the only sections of the "Intermediate Capacity Transit System", i.e. Skytrain, that remain unbuilt or are not currently under construction.

If Farmer's prediction comes true, it would mean that the KGB/104th Ave Skytrain has had to wait nearly a half century to take the next step off the official drawing board.

Uhm I'm looking at the map right now and it says "Intermediate Capacity Transit System (Segregated Busway, LRT, ALRT)" - aka BRT, LRT or Skytrain. We don't have any segregated BRT yet (and I so can't wait for that to occur) and the closest thing would be RapidBus, which is on King George and 104th.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Uhm I'm looking at the map right now and it says "Intermediate Capacity Transit System (Segregated Busway, LRT, ALRT)" - aka BRT, LRT or Skytrain. We don't have any segregated BRT yet (and I so can't wait for that to occur) and the closest thing would be RapidBus, which is on King George and 104th.

It's so cute that they throw in LRT when it basically gets nixed every time and we either end up with B-Line or SkyTrain.

When will they learn...

[dleung]

What about fantasy livery?



I was never a fan of the crayon blue or the hot-rod swoops. Prefer a more west-coast palette and more European minimalism graphically

[Helvetia]

Originally Posted by dleung

I was never a fan of the crayon blue or the hot-rod swoops

Someone finally said it!

Personally I'd change the grey upper body to dark brown since that would complement the green and gold.

But the Bombardier trains still look better than those on the Canada Line that only have a paint scheme on the fronts/rears. From the side, they resemble "tin can" 1960s NYC subway cars.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

It's so cute that they throw in LRT when it basically gets nixed every time and we either end up with B-Line or SkyTrain.

When will they learn...

Well that report was from 1993 - so that was at the beginning of the learning curve. I'm guessing we're somewhere in the middle of the curve now. We've got at least a few more decades until they learn.

Except by then there will be a whole lot of new people in charge and they'll start the learning curve all over again...

[Migrant_Coconut]

Re: Guildford extension, I'd suggest that a one-transfer connection between Surrey and Coquitlam could just as important as Fort Langley and Walnut Grove.

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

It's so cute that they throw in LRT when it basically gets nixed every time and we either end up with B-Line or SkyTrain.

When will they learn...

If they don't, Condon, Fitch, Elizabeth Murphy, all of zweisystem's dozen sockpuppets, and the other Karens crawl out of the woodwork screaming "rigged system" and "corrupt corporate cronies" (albeit less succinctly). Even though virtually everybody knows it'll likely be SkyTrain because it's the only decent option, adding and then immediately rejecting BRT, LRT and more regular buses satisfies democracy's need for freedom of choice.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Re: Guildford extension, I'd suggest that a one-transfer connection between Surrey and Coquitlam could just as important as Fort Langley and Walnut Grove.

Could you explain what you mean? Do you want a line headed north from Guildford beside the Port Mann in Coquitlam?

[FarmerHaight]

Seattle-Vancouver High Speed Rail Part 3: Bellingham to Vancouver

This is quite the outdated blog post (it's from 2017) but I read it yesterday and I am curious how the people on this forum would approach getting HSR from the border into Vancouver. Now that we know there are three highly hypothetical preliminary options (terminus in Surrey, station in Surrey and terminus in Vancouver, or terminus in Vancouver) what ROWs are the most likely candidates to be used for HSR? Would you follow the TCH? The Fraser Highway and tunnel under Surrey Central? Would you share ROW with Skytrain?

I am also curious what the consensus is on Waterfront vs. Pacific Central. Now that there are plans to build out Broadway as an extension of downtown does that decrease the need to get HSR to the historical CBD via Waterfront?

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

If they don't, Condon, Fitch, Elizabeth Murphy, all of zweisystem's dozen sockpuppets, and the other Karens crawl out of the woodwork screaming "rigged system" and "corrupt corporate cronies" (albeit less succinctly). Even though virtually everybody knows it'll likely be SkyTrain because it's the only decent option, adding and then immediately rejecting BRT, LRT and more regular buses satisfies democracy's need for freedom of choice.

Illusion of freedom of choice more like

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by cganuelas1995

Illusion of freedom of choice more like

I wouldn't call it illusion of freedom of choice. I personally think it's probably a good thing that we always compare Skytrain against BRT and LRT, and there are probably some situations in the future where BRT or LRT make sense (not to mention we're already seeing BRT seriously proposed).

We don't want to fall into a dogma where every problem has to be solved by Skytrain; It just so happens that every transit problem we've had so far is best solved by grade separated rail.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

Seattle-Vancouver High Speed Rail Part 3: Bellingham to Vancouver

This is quite the outdated blog post (it's from 2017) but I read it yesterday and I am curious how the people on this forum would approach getting HSR from the border into Vancouver. Now that we know there are three highly hypothetical preliminary options (terminus in Surrey, station in Surrey and terminus in Vancouver, or terminus in Vancouver) what ROWs are the most likely candidates to be used for HSR? Would you follow the TCH? The Fraser Highway and tunnel under Surrey Central? Would you share ROW with Skytrain?

I am also curious what the consensus is on Waterfront vs. Pacific Central. Now that there are plans to build out Broadway as an extension of downtown does that decrease the need to get HSR to the historical CBD via Waterfront?

I would say the best alignment would be similar to the graphic shown on that blog post. Going up parallel to 232 Street in Langley (I can hear the Langley NIMBYs crying already), then connecting with the TCH, across the Fraser River parallel to the Port Mann, following the rail corridor to Pacific Central and/or up and around the DTES to Waterfront. I would prefer Waterfront over Pacific Central for it's connections to local transit and the potential for it to be redeveloped into a world class transit hub, that being said if it is Waterfront we better redevelop the station into something truly world class.

I also strongly believe if we are going to fund this with Canadian taxpayer dollars we should negotiate the right to run local service to eventually act as an express/relief line for our transit system. If we were successful at that we could build a depot for express trains somewhere in Langley and have the following local express stations:

• Langley @ 232st & Fraser Highway (eventually extending Expo Line a couple km to meet this)
• Langley @ Carvolth Exchange
• Surrey @ 104 Ave Guildford (*Also a station for international trains && a connection to a KGB/104 Ave Skytrain)
• Burnaby/Coquitlam @ North Road (perhaps a short tunnel here to connect with Lougheed Station better, a tunnel would also allow through running international trains to maintain higher speeds around the bend in the existing railway ROW in this area)
• Burnaby @ Willingdon (Connecting to the Purple Line Skytrain)
• Vancouver @ Commercial-Broadway (Connecting to Millennium/Expo Line & all of the MEGA TOWERS)
• Vancouver @ Waterfront (*Also a station for international trains)

I would envision all of these stations having a 4 track local/international track layout.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by chowhou

I personally think it's probably a good thing that we always compare Skytrain against BRT and LRT, and there are probably some situations in the future where BRT or LRT make sense

I struggle to see any situation where LRT should be used except for hop-on, hop-off tourism services in high traffic pedestrian areas. For example, if the Senakw - OV - Science World - False Creek South street car is ever built, I would love for it to extend up a pedestrianized Robson Street all the way to Stanley Park. Having tracks makes the path of the train much more predictable than a bus, so running it through a pedestrian area is practical. I once rode a tram in Basel when the streets around the main square were closed to traffic but the tram still ran through at slow speeds. Another example is the trams around Alexanderplatz in Berlin.

But in any other situation where we need rapid transit but Skytrain is prohibitively expensive, BRT is superior to LRT IMO.

[mcj]

Originally Posted by chowhou

We don't want to fall into a dogma where every problem has to be solved by Skytrain; It just so happens that every transit problem we've had so far is best solved by grade separated rail.

Except the Seabus, West Coast Express, Burnaby mountain gondola, and the proposed high speed rail.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by mcj

I would say the best alignment would be similar to the graphic shown on that blog post. Going up parallel to 232 Street in Langley (I can hear the Langley NIMBYs crying already), then connecting with the TCH, across the Fraser River parallel to the Port Mann, following the rail corridor to Pacific Central and/or up and around the DTES to Waterfront. I would prefer Waterfront over Pacific Central for it's connections to local transit and the potential for it to be redeveloped into a world class transit hub, that being said if it is Waterfront we better redevelop the station into something truly world class.

I also strongly believe if we are going to fund this with Canadian taxpayer dollars we should negotiate the right to run local service to eventually act as an express/relief line for our transit system. If we were successful at that we could build a depot for express trains somewhere in Langley and have the following local express stations:

• Langley @ 232st & Fraser Highway (eventually extending Expo Line a couple km to meet this)
• Langley @ Carvolth Exchange
• Surrey @ 104 Ave Guildford (*Also a station for international trains && a connection to a KGB/104 Ave Skytrain)
• Burnaby/Coquitlam @ North Road (perhaps a short tunnel here to connect with Lougheed Station better, a tunnel would also allow through running international trains to maintain higher speeds around the bend in the existing railway ROW in this area)
• Burnaby @ Willingdon (Connecting to the Purple Line Skytrain)
• Vancouver @ Commercial-Broadway (Connecting to Millennium/Expo Line & all of the MEGA TOWERS)
• Vancouver @ Waterfront (*Also a station for international trains)

I would envision all of these stations having a 4 track local/international track layout.

It would break my heart to have Pacific Central still be grossly underutilized just because it looks nice and I think could really be dressed up with Thornton Park in front and the new development that will be spurred by the hospital. But it certainly doesn't have the same opportunities to integrate with multi-modal transport the way Waterfront does.

Would anything need to be "negotiated" to do your proposal? I would assume if Canada is willing to pay for the quad tracks and the extra stations, the U.S. wouldn't care about adding them especially if International trains still only stop at the terminus and the Surrey station and aren't delayed by the local trains. But I wonder if you need any of those local stations past Guildford. All of the super commuters from the Valley would already be on board the train, and assuming they are either commuting to Surrey or Vancouver I don't think it would be worth building the three additional stations.

Also, how you would fit four tracks alongside the TCH? There certainly wouldn't be enough space to put them in the median and after 160 St in Surrey there isn't extra space beside the highway, so you're either looking at expensive tunneling or expropriation.