Transit Fantasies

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Helvetia

Yes, I would prefer that as well. I took inspiration from the R1/future Newton-Guildford Line which features a hard 90 degree turn at 104 Ave (though I think this would probably have to be significantly smoothed out).

Ah I didn't know about that. Well if the ridership is considerable, perhaps an upgrade to rail is possible in the far future

I assumed you drew out most of the future R6 Scott Road RapidBus. No surprise TransLink is busy creating more RapidBus routes as they're a lot faster and cheaper to build than Skytrain - and can turn on a dime.

I suspect what we'll see is primarily north - south Skytrain line(s) with connecting east - west bus routes. That would be an improvement over what's in place now, which is very few east - west routes SoF (which is an improvement over the past).

I can't remember where I saw that highway coach route listed and drawn out. I recently drew out an image with Skytrain, RapidBus and those connecting highway coach routes. Then you can see very clearly what areas really need improved service.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Reversed direction lines suck for everybody involved.

Why?
This is basically how the terminus at Lafarge Lake - Douglas Station is.

One 1 platform is actively used (the other one is storage), and the train switches train tracks and direction after leaving the station. (Not using the tracks behind the station, unlike Waterfront.)

[madog222]

If the Skybridge reaches capacity it would likely be twinned at the same location. Having a bridge over the absolute widest section of the Fraser isn't really practical.

Trying not to be negative but I don't really see the point as a transfer at Scott Road is going to be longer than a transfer at Columbia.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by madog222

If the Skybridge reaches capacity it would likely be twinned at the same location. Having a bridge over the absolute widest section of the Fraser isn't really practical.

Trying not to be negative but I don't really see the point as a transfer at Scott Road is going to be longer than a transfer at Columbia.

There are some places on the system where four tracking would be beneficial

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Why?
This is basically how the terminus at Lafarge Lake - Douglas Station is.

One 1 platform is actively used (the other one is storage), and the train switches train tracks and direction after leaving the station. (Not using the tracks behind the station, unlike Waterfront.)

I guess it depends on whether the original proposal was a short hop to a switch (as with the 100m or so at Lafarge) or if they meant using the reverse track between stations.

[officedweller]

Just a note that Sapperton Bar was one of the options for the New Pattullo Bridge:

Discussion Guide:

https://www.placespeak.com/uploads/a...k-Form_1_1.pdf

It was rejected because it was too expensive and it was located outside regional town centres.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...link-1.1370635

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Just a note that Sapperton Bar was one of the options for the New Pattullo Bridge:

Discussion Guide:

https://www.placespeak.com/uploads/a...k-Form_1_1.pdf

It was rejected because it was too expensive and it was located outside regional town centres.


https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...link-1.1370635

Originally Posted by madog222

If the Skybridge reaches capacity it would likely be twinned at the same location. Having a bridge over the absolute widest section of the Fraser isn't really practical.

Trying not to be negative but I don't really see the point as a transfer at Scott Road is going to be longer than a transfer at Columbia.

The primary reason that option was there was because New Westminster wanted to direct traffic away from their downtown.
Ironically, the only way the proposal for a Sapperton road crossing was likely possible was if they decided to build the NFPR too...

They could counteract the extra cost by reclaiming Sapperton Bar like Annacis Island. Theoretically.


Perhaps a better secondary crossing would be at the New Westminster Quayside, so you could connect it to a future Expo relief line on Canada Way (or just get Skytrain to Uptown New Westminster.) The vacated old Secondary School/Cemetery lands could be redeveloped there.

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

I guess it depends on whether the original proposal was a short hop to a switch (as with the 100m or so at Lafarge) or if they meant using the reverse track between stations.

Most optimally though, yeah, you would want to shut down at least 1 of the tracks at a time for a new crossover, though something similar was done for the construction of the Millennium Line back in the day.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Helvetia

Keeping the Columbia branch allows for a second transfer station, that is more convenient for New West-Coquitlam travellers, whereas Scott Road is better for Surrey-Coquitlam travellers.

Don't forget that splitting the line also means splitting the service too. Half the trains will go to Columbia and the other half to Newton (or 1/3rd and 2/3rds); no change in service for New West, but Surrey loses out on peak frequency and capacity. At most you're inconveniencing NW-Coq riders by 2-4 minutes by having them transfer at Scott Road.

Originally Posted by fredinno

Why?
This is basically how the terminus at Lafarge Lake - Douglas Station is.

One 1 platform is actively used (the other one is storage), and the train switches train tracks and direction after leaving the station. (Not using the tracks behind the station, unlike Waterfront.)

Lafarge is a terminus station - Columbia is not. For riders, a Y-junction in the middle of the route leads to unnecessary confusion and possible inconvenience, and for TransLink, it leads to unnecessary extra track switches to look after. IIRC that's a major part of why Mississauga's upset with the Hurontario plans.

[Helvetia]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Don't forget that splitting the line also means splitting the service too. Half the trains will go to Columbia and the other half to Newton (or 1/3rd and 2/3rds); no change in service for New West, but Surrey loses out on peak frequency and capacity. At most you're inconveniencing NW-Coq riders by 2-4 minutes by having them transfer at Scott Road.

That's a really important point I missed, thanks!

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Don't forget that splitting the line also means splitting the service too. Half the trains will go to Columbia and the other half to Newton (or 1/3rd and 2/3rds); no change in service for New West, but Surrey loses out on peak frequency and capacity. At most you're inconveniencing NW-Coq riders by 2-4 minutes by having them transfer at Scott Road.



Lafarge is a terminus station - Columbia is not. For riders, a Y-junction in the middle of the route leads to unnecessary confusion and possible inconvenience, and for TransLink, it leads to unnecessary extra track switches to look after. IIRC that's a major part of why Mississauga's upset with the Hurontario plans.

Pretty sure they're mad more about losing stations more than the Y-Junction.

Just don't show riders the junction on the simplified maps, so that people aren't confused.
It's like a diverging diamond interchange. Just follow the signs, and you won't be confused.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by fredinno

Just don't show riders the junction on the simplified maps, so that people aren't confused.
It's like a diverging diamond interchange. Just follow the signs, and you won't be confused.

That's a pretty big omission, and for little benefit... and TransLink's still got the problem of having several extra points of failure track switches to worry about. Best to follow the KISS principle and "just" make them separate lines.

[jbrizzy]

Here as an alternative that I've considered...

Instead of tying in to existing track north of the Fraser, this would be a new line originating in downtown Vancouver (exact route omitted as it's not important for this discussion), and travelling down Kingsway until it reaches the Edmonds area. From there it would swing over to Uptown New West and continue down the hill, intersecting with the Expo Line at New West Station. It would then cross the Fraser in a tunnel and head down Scott Road until 72nd.



This line would could accomplish several things:

1. With the Surrey-Langley extension, and potentially an additional Expo Line branch to Newton, ridership on the Expo Line will continue to grow. At some point (yes far in the future), capacity on the main trunk between Vancouver and New West will be strained. An additional line roughly parallel to the Expo Line, though farther south as it runs through Vancouver, would pick up the majority of downtown-bound passengers from South Vancouver (those who wouldn't otherwise be taking the Canada Line at least), and thus offer relief for the busiest portion of the Expo Line, as well as critical redundancy for our most important transit corridor.

2. Improved service for growing population areas, including Metrotown and Edmonds. Great densification opportunities along Kingsway. And Uptown New West, a transit-deserving area itself, is also tied into the network.

3. Scott Rd is the busiest bus corridor south of the Fraser. This route would offer a one-seat ride to downtown Vancouver, and with riders moved off of the Expo Line, would offer relief to the Expo Line as well.

A line like this might seem like overkill in the present, and wouldn't take priority over UBC, Hastings, North Shore, Willingdon, or even 41st/49th. But once we get there (2050? lol) we might be at the point where the Expo Line is nearing capacity and requiring relief. It could even be extended on the downtown side through Stanley Park to tie into the east-west North Shore line. Of course it would be an incredibly expensive undertaking but hopefully we'll be in a better place as a society where such an investment can be easily justified (one can dream anyway).

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by jbrizzy

Here as an alternative that I've considered...

Instead of tying in to existing track north of the Fraser, this would be a new line originating in downtown Vancouver (exact route omitted as it's not important for this discussion), and travelling down Kingsway until it reaches the Edmonds area. From there it would swing over to Uptown New West and continue down the hill, intersecting with the Expo Line at New West Station. It would then cross the Fraser in a tunnel and head down Scott Road until 72nd.

There's a problem with your alternative line. It's a pesky thing known as grade - as in TransLink limits it to 6 degrees on Skytrain. Scott Road south of 99th Ave is alright but north of there it drops off a cliff - and trying to get it into a tunnel across the Fraser would drop it off another cliff. Then it would have to try to climb back up the cliff to get to Uptown New West.

You've also got the Expo Line splitting (again) in Surrey. This means each section is going to have infrequent service. It's ok in New West as the section that travels to Production Way isn't that busy but putting a second split in Surrey - eek! Skytrain down King George is going to have to be a separate line.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Sheba

There's a problem with your alternative line. It's a pesky thing known as grade - as in TransLink limits it to 6 degrees on Skytrain. Scott Road south of 99th Ave is alright but north of there it drops off a cliff - and trying to get it into a tunnel across the Fraser would drop it off another cliff. Then it would have to try to climb back up the cliff to get to Uptown New West.

You've also got the Expo Line splitting (again) in Surrey. This means each section is going to have infrequent service. It's ok in New West as the section that travels to Production Way isn't that busy but putting a second split in Surrey - eek! Skytrain down King George is going to have to be a separate line.

Well it's possible to do that. Just use double-height viaducts (see Expo-Clark).
The issue is that you would need to tunnel underneath the Fraser with this due to going on 6th off the curve from New Westminster Station (where'd you even put a tunnel portal?) Also, that thing is going to as slow as a snail with 2 90-degree turns right next to each other.

Yeah, I don't get why people don't just copy the old L-Line LRT alignment.

Guildford is important too- especially since 104 is pretty narrow and could use transit capacity (it was never intended to have the traffic it has now, unlike King George).


Kingsway is not a good relief line, IMO- Kingsway is 10 minutes' walk away from the Expo Line. This is why I prefer the Canada Line alignment, as it covers the area at a rough midpoint between the Millennium and Expo Lines.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Sheba

There's a problem with your alternative line. It's a pesky thing known as grade - as in TransLink limits it to 6 degrees on Skytrain. Scott Road south of 99th Ave is alright but north of there it drops off a cliff - and trying to get it into a tunnel across the Fraser would drop it off another cliff. Then it would have to try to climb back up the cliff to get to Uptown New West.

You've also got the Expo Line splitting (again) in Surrey. This means each section is going to have infrequent service. It's ok in New West as the section that travels to Production Way isn't that busy but putting a second split in Surrey - eek! Skytrain down King George is going to have to be a separate line.

For a SoF route, consider this: build a new route north/south on 120 St, but have it turn east at 99 Ave where it would eventually connect with King George and take over the Langley line. The current Expo line could then be extended south down KGB. This would eliminate any branching for the Expo line SoF.

As for the Expo relief line, I would say building new east/west lines at 49/41 and Hastings, plus the north/south connection between Willingdon and Brentwood should provide plenty of relief. At a very minimum, these lines will get SoF passengers travelling to YVR, North Van, and UBC off at Metrotown instead of Waterfront, Burrard, and Commercial-Broadway respectively.

If the diagonal connection between Surrey and DT Vancouver does need additional capacity in the distant future and a potential HSR line cannot help address it, I would suggest we would be better off quad tracking the Expo line to allow for express trains that would provide local service in Surrey but only stop at Metrotown, Commercial Broadway, Burrard, and Waterfront once they cross the Fraser.

[Tvisforme]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

...If the diagonal connection between Surrey and DT Vancouver does need additional capacity in the distant future and a potential HSR line cannot help address it, I would suggest we would be better off quad tracking the Expo line to allow for express trains that would provide local service in Surrey but only stop at Metrotown, Commercial Broadway, Burrard, and Waterfront once they cross the Fraser.

I seem to recall watching the express line thunder through a station in NYC's subway while we waited on the local platform. It would certainly make sense to have a similar service to take some of the load off of the main Expo line while cutting travel time between major stations. However, I don't know how you would build this without taking the line down for a very long period of time. Could reinforcements to the pylons could be done first while the line is in service, then replace the track in sections as they did with the Lions Gate Bridge?

Just wondering, given the cost involved in quad-tracking the entire Expo Line, would it be feasible to rebuild individual stations as quad-track so that express trains could bypass them while sharing the main line?

[jbrizzy]

Originally Posted by Sheba

There's a problem with your alternative line. It's a pesky thing known as grade - as in TransLink limits it to 6 degrees on Skytrain. Scott Road south of 99th Ave is alright but north of there it drops off a cliff - and trying to get it into a tunnel across the Fraser would drop it off another cliff. Then it would have to try to climb back up the cliff to get to Uptown New West.

You've also got the Expo Line splitting (again) in Surrey. This means each section is going to have infrequent service. It's ok in New West as the section that travels to Production Way isn't that busy but putting a second split in Surrey - eek! Skytrain down King George is going to have to be a separate line.

That exact route is unlikely given the grade considerations, yes. This is more of a thought experiment than a serious proposal given how far down the line it would be.

Regarding Expo Line splitting, Translink's plan is to short-turn trains at King George and not run all Surrey-bound trains through to Langley. A King George Blvd extension is also mentioned in the Transport 2050 plans, which would presumably be a branch off the Expo Line, and take the trains that would otherwise have been short-turned at King George.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by Tvisforme

I seem to recall watching the express line thunder through a station in NYC's subway while we waited on the local platform. It would certainly make sense to have a similar service to take some of the load off of the main Expo line while cutting travel time between major stations. However, I don't know how you would build this without taking the line down for a very long period of time. Could reinforcements to the pylons could be done first while the line is in service, then replace the track in sections as they did with the Lions Gate Bridge?

Just wondering, given the cost involved in quad-tracking the entire Expo Line, would it be feasible to rebuild individual stations as quad-track so that express trains could bypass them while sharing the main line?

I really don't know anything about construction feasibility. Maybe the express track could be elevated above the local service track and that way only the stations I mentioned above would need to be rebuilt? I imagine there would still be service disruptions though.

But regardless, I think we're a long ways off from needing relief for the Expo line. If overcrowding on trains from Surrey to DT Vancouver is such a problem, my suggestion would be to convert Columbia to Production Way-University to a five stop shuttle train. That way you could remove all branches on the Expo line and run 90 second frequencies from King George to DT Vancouver. Especially with the longer platforms and trains, it would likely be decades before the Metro sees enough population growth to overwhelm that system. Trips between SFU or the Tri-Cities and Surrey would be slightly less convenient, but that solution is a lot more affordable than adding a parallel relief line or quad tracking.

[FarmerHaight]

Originally Posted by jbrizzy

Regarding Expo Line splitting, Translink's plan is to short-turn trains at King George and not run all Surrey-bound trains through to Langley. A King George Blvd extension is also mentioned in the Transport 2050 plans, which would presumably be a branch off the Expo Line, and take the trains that would otherwise have been short-turned at King George.

For Surrey, it seems like two north-south lines (KGB and 120th), one diagonal line (Langley), and one east-west line (104 to Guildford) are all tentatively planned for the distant, distant future. It only makes sense to not branch the Expo line at all, and connect KGB and Guildford as one L-shaped line and Langley and 120th as one 45-degree line. That would turn King George Station into a true hub for the Expo line terminus, two SoF-only lines, and a number of local bus routes.

And while we're in fantasy territory, why not run the Guildford line down the TCH median for awhile to serve Walnut Grove and Fort Langley and even throw a bridge in to connect with the WCE at Port Haney. All of this construction SoF would really establish a comprehensive transit network that doesn't just serve Vancouver, and provide Surrey with transit service worthy of the region's largest city

[Helvetia]

Originally Posted by FarmerHaight

nd while we're in fantasy territory, why not run the Guildford line down the TCH median for awhile to serve Walnut Grove and Fort Langley and even throw a bridge in to connect with the WCE at Port Haney.

I always have to remind myself that people actually live in Fort Langley and it's not just the historic fort building used for school field trips