When did it become apparent that Toronto would surpass Montreal...

[lio45]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think the notion of the accounting-style leger of perks and downsides is itself overrated. Often it's individualized opportunities or emotional states that lead to these decisions. For example, somebody can get a good job offer in another town even if the median pay there is lower, and somebody can find they just don't like their social environment for some reason so they want to start over somewhere else. Maybe they would have stayed in a town if they dated somebody or made a couple good friends but they didn't, so they left. Some of these things are difficult to bring up in conversation while the weather is completely impersonal and ties in with received wisdom.

Very good point. I'd say that if I look at the few cases I'm personally familiar with, the main reason people go "out West" has been to get over a relationship breakup.

In terms of career-advancing move, I know 0 who moved to BC. (My sample of career-advancing destinations: California, Texas, Australia, France, Switzerland.) Moving to BC was always an "adventure" thing, never a "career" one.

[Denscity]

Ya I’d agree no one with a general office job would move to Vancouver for another similar job. It would be for lifestyle improvements and live/work balance.

[ssiguy]

This thread isn't about BC or NS so let's get back on topic.

In the 70s the transition from Montreal to Toronto really stepped up but it's future was uncertain. Many thought it was more of an aberration and Montreal would come back, although certainly a little bruised, and regain it's glory but after the FLQ came PQ and the referendum and people and businesses realized that this wasn't just a political movement but a real threat especially to the wealthier English and Jewish populations. The separatist movement was EXCEPTIONALLY anti-semantic.

For many Canadians, Montrealers & Torontonians in particular, the real psychological hit was when the Bank of Montreal moved to Toronto. This was a clear point that businesses and people were giving up on Montreal and that they wouldn't be going back. It was a real kick in the teeth to Montrealers and a real sense of pride to Torontonians who finally started believing that they really were overtaking Montreal.

[Architype]

I wonder if, on 13 September 1759, they thought we would be having this discussion 96,258 days later.

Just a reminder, it's time to repost the graph I posted before.

Originally Posted by Architype

The two cities' populations closely parallel each other up until around 1975, so the cause or catalyst is pretty clear.


https://www.researchgate.net/figure/...fig1_227717868

...

C'est l'heure mes amis, c'est l'heure de se reposer.

[BlackDog204]

Originally Posted by Docere

...as the country's leading population, financial, cultural centre?

The narrative is the BQ came to power in 1976 the anglos and HQs left and then Toronto "suddenly" surpassed Montreal as the leading city.

But they were very close in size through the 20th century and a lot of the factors were in place well before the 1970s.

I believe Toronto matched Montreal for headquarters by the 1950s, maybe even earlier.

The St. Lawrence Seaway completion in 1959 benefitted Toronto.

When John Porter was writing the Vertical Mosaic (early 1960s), economic elite seemed evenly split between Toronto and Montreal.

The quiet revolution of the 60s, and especially the FLQ scared away big business, and all the non-Quebecois, especially Jews and Anglophones. They all relocated to Toronto.

[Architype]

Here it does show there was already a trend, it's not like 1977 was a complete shock to anybody.
It looks like 1961 was the beginning of the Torontoization of Canada.


https://michelpatrice.wordpress.com/...tionnal-notes/

Vancouver vs. Calgary is also interesting, the Calgarization of the West took off in 1977.

[kool maudit]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

The quiet revolution of the 60s, and especially the FLQ scared away big business, and all the non-Quebecois, especially Jews and Anglophones. They all relocated to Toronto.

I think everyone pretty much knows that Montreal can no longer be a major Anglophone city in even a legal and structural sense. The question is whether, prior to this shift, it was still the most desirable/ascendant of Canada's Anglophone cities, and I think it was not.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

The quiet revolution of the 60s, and especially the FLQ scared away big business, and all the non-Quebecois, especially Jews and Anglophones. They all relocated to Toronto.

They are ALL gone? Really????

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

This thread isn't about BC or NS so let's get back on topic.

In the 70s the transition from Montreal to Toronto really stepped up but it's future was uncertain. Many thought it was more of an aberration and Montreal would come back, although certainly a little bruised, and regain it's glory but after the FLQ came PQ and the referendum and people and businesses realized that this wasn't just a political movement but a real threat especially to the wealthier English and Jewish populations. The separatist movement was EXCEPTIONALLY anti-semantic.

For many Canadians, Montrealers & Torontonians in particular, the real psychological hit was when the Bank of Montreal moved to Toronto. This was a clear point that businesses and people were giving up on Montreal and that they wouldn't be going back. It was a real kick in the teeth to Montrealers and a real sense of pride to Torontonians who finally started believing that they really were overtaking Montreal.

Back then I believe that the idea that Québec independence was inevitable and inexorable was probably a way more common view than the possibility that Montréal would bounce back and hold off Toronto's push.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rousseau

It was on TV, actually. It was so long ago I can't recall what channel it was, cable or otherwise, but it had subtitles and I watched it in Ontario. Maybe TVO?

This was one of those movies that really hammered home for me how little anglo Canada examines itself due to farming out our "social comment" drama to Hollywood. A real society tells stories about itself, but we get subsumed into the greater North American cultural narrative without really playing much of a role, so a thoughtful character wondering about life for me is invariably going to be American. At least in movies or TV, anyway.

As ever, kool maudit made the point very pithily and succinctly long ago. Something about one culture, one and and half countries, I think is how he put it.

I love that film maker Ricardo Trogi.

His stuff really speaks to me generationally especially his trilogy of 1981, 1987 and 1991 which mirror astonishingly well many of my life experiences growing up.

He was actually revealed in La Course destination monde, a thinking man's Amazing Race style show that existed here in the 1990s long before the Amazing Race.

A bunch of young people were given an unlimited ticket to fly anywhere in the world for several months, and a camera. The condition is they send back one five minute documentary style film a week. A panel of judges critiques and rates the films each week.

Oscar nominees Denis Villeneuve (Dune, Arrival, Blade Runner) and Philippe Falardeau (Monsieur Lazhar) are among the many notable alumni of the show.

[niwell]

We did actually used to make unique movies in English and not just French. Lots of bizarre art films made with grant money from the 70s(?) to 90s. Not just talking Cronenberg or Atom Egoyan either. A lot of the earlier stuff isn't great but we also got Toronto New Wave - an actual genre(!) - out of it.

Toronto obviously makes a ton of movies / shows - most are not Canadian. Some nowadays are which is cool but I don't think have the lasting cultural cache of some older stuff. A Scott Pilgrim animated series is coming out which is kinda neat.

Generally I think in Canadian media Toronto matters a lot more in music, but in ways that aren't necessarily as visible to the general public. If you're in the industry in Canada you want to be here (Quebec focused stuff notwithstanding). But if you want your artists to actually make enough money to live off it you're also doing meetings in LA/NYC.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

This thread isn't about BC or NS so let's get back on topic.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by BlackDog204

The quiet revolution of the 60s, and especially the FLQ scared away big business, and all the non-Quebecois, especially Jews and Anglophones. They all relocated to Toronto.

Just because someone is Québécois(e) doesn't imply that the person is francophone.

Not all of the big business and minorities were scared away. Just some.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by niwell

We did actually used to make unique movies in English and not just French. Lots of bizarre art films made with grant money from the 70s(?) to 90s. Not just talking Cronenberg or Atom Egoyan either. A lot of the earlier stuff isn't great but we also got Toronto New Wave - an actual genre(!) - out of it.

Toronto obviously makes a ton of movies / shows - most are not Canadian. Some nowadays are which is cool but I don't think have the lasting cultural cache of some older stuff. A Scott Pilgrim animated series is coming out which is kinda neat.

Generally I think in Canadian media Toronto matters a lot more in music, but in ways that aren't necessarily as visible to the general public. If you're in the industry in Canada you want to be here (Quebec focused stuff notwithstanding). But if you want your artists to actually make enough money to live off it you're also doing meetings in LA/NYC.

This is one of my favourites. Goin' Down the Road (1970)
• Video Link

[someone123]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

This is one of my favourites. Goin' Down the Road (1970)

We are supposed to stop posting about NS but then this perhaps most prominent in genre Canadian movie is about moving from Cape Breton to Toronto. Toronto as the destination in 1970, not Montreal.

This was before my time but I get the impression it was quite influential and also doesn't really appear to match my experiences much at all.

[Nouvellecosse]

It's so silly to claim it's off-topic to bring up other places when the thread is about the relative success of Montreal compared to Toronto. People were literally discussing how the movement of people and business contribute to that relative success or decline. It's like if people were discussing the wealth of a person, household or business and someone claimed it was off-topic to talk about how that wealth was affected by the strength of the economy or the wealth of other people and businesses they interacted with. As if the topics were completely unrelated.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

It's so silly to claim it's off-topic to bring up other places when the thread is about the relative success of Montreal compared to Toronto. People were literally discussing how the movement of people and business contribute to that relative success or decline. It's like if people were discussing the wealth of a person, household or business and someone claimed it was off-topic to talk about how that wealth was affected by the strength of the economy or the wealth of other people and businesses they interacted with. As if the topics were completely unrelated.

I agree. Back in those days, the country's biggest cities were sucking in people from the hinterlands, so it is entirely relevant to the discussion.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Hali87

Ehhh, I don't know about this. Halifax/Vancouver are good "counterpoints" to each other that tend to appeal to a lot of the same kinds of people, but the sheer distance between them (literally one full North America away from each other) tends to discourage this move.

The main "points of exchange" with Halifax in the West tend to be Calgary and Edmonton. I'm not sure whether there's more moves to/from either of these cities individually than Montreal, but certainly there are more to/from Alberta-as-a-whole than Quebec-as-a-whole). In terms of lifestyle, job opportunities, and socio-political outlook - Vancouver (+ Victoria) feels very "aligned" with Halifax whereas Edmonton and Calgary feel very "opposite". But reflecting this dynamic, there tend to be more reasons for someone to move from Halifax to Edmonton than to Vancouver (or vice versa).

This made me curious:

Interprovincial and intraprovincial migrants, by census metropolitan area and census agglomeration of origin and destination, 2016 boundaries
Frequency: Annual

Table: 17-10-0141-01

Release date: 2023-01-11

(IE, destinations of people moving from Halifax)

2016-2021 yearly average

Halifax -> Toronto: 1,251
Halifax -> Ott/Gat: 817
Halifax -> Calgary: 398
Halifax -> Vancouver: 383
Halifax -> Edmonton: 338
Halifax -> Montreal: 292
Halifax -> Moncton: 248
Halifax -> Victoria: 187
Halifax -> KWC: 130
Halifax -> London: 102
Halifax -> Winnipeg: 82
Halifax -> Quebec: 45

And moving to Halifax:

Toronto -> Halifax: 1,821
Ott/Gat -> Halifax: 644
Vancouver -> Halifax: 518
Calgary -> Halifax: 430
Edmonton -> Halifax: 400
Montreal -> Halifax: 369
Moncton -> Halifax: 344
Victoria -> Halifax: 192
Winnipeg -> Halifax: 133

Halifax has more movement between itself and five cities further west before Montreal hits either list. Halifax's movement with Montreal is nearly equivalent to its movement with Moncton. The annual breakdown of the Ottawa-Gatineau is roughly 93%Ontario and 7%Quebec side.

[bant]

As a recent immigrant to Canada, I find this thread super interesting. I was going through historical censuses a while ago and noticed that the population gap between Toronto and Montreal was not very large, especially right after WW1.

Modern large cities likely won't have residential districts with buildings dating back to before the 19th century. Montreal does have districts from the late 19th century, like Pointe-St-Charles, and Toronto doesn't. Toronto has some Victorian rowhouses, but not as many as Montreal (I read somewhere that Toronto supposedly has the most Victorian rowhouses in North America, which doesn't seem true but is possible). In Montreal, just walking along St. Hubert Street from south to north, you'll find it nearly filled with Victorian rowhouses.

This is pretty much the only reason I felt Montreal was a more important city in Canada during the early 20th century.

Downtown Montreal, built after WW2, is not very impressive. Even in the middle of the main commercial streets, there are empty lots. There were some post-war tall skyscrapers, but Toronto had many of them as well. Montreal has been somewhat stagnant until recently, when it began building glass condos, which aren't particularly interesting. Montreal could have built non-glass condos to distinguish itself from other North American cities.

Montreal so far was reluctant to develop multiple transit-oriented commercial centers in comparison to Toronto and Vancouver. Now they are building the Royalmount Mall, but it seems a bit late.

I thought Montreal was gaining momentum again since Toronto wasn't investing effectively in public transit. However, the construction of the Ontario Line there will likely be a game-changer.

It could be like comparing Barcelona and Madrid in 30 years if Montreal is not acting now. REM de l'ouest is not enough. Now, the metro services in Madrid vastly outpace those in Barcelona.

Montreal needs serious investment in transit and downtown renewal to maintain its status. It lacks the beaches and warmer climate of Barcelona after all.

I still find Montreal better because Toronto is as expensive as a supposedly world-class city, but it isn't one. I travel a lot, and it wouldn't have been possible if I lived in Toronto. I lived in Toronto and couldn't stand going to ethnic restaurants situated in the middle of suburban parking lots. They are plain ugly.

[Architype]

I guess I haven't really spent enough time in Toronto to have noticed, but does Toronto have many real, authentic, & historic row houses (row houses are attached with common walls, not duplexes or semi-detached). Perhaps the style they do have is more Victorian than what's commonly found in most of North America. It's not the colorful row houses though that attract people to Toronto.