Planning for shrinking cities

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Antigonish

The emphasis on food =/= culture is unironically low-brow. Culture is extremely nuanced but in our busy lives or how we can express things in 140 characters or less in our contemporary society people dumb things down to the lowest common denominator. Culture runs much deeper:
https://imgur.com/a/U0V65AX

That iceberg diagram is interesting and quite accurate. People tend to get preoccupied with superficial stuff and can easily miss important differences (Canada vs. US; if you don't have a different famous sandwich or funny accent you must be the same in every way) or similarities (view English and French as two separate cultures, ignoring Enlightenment and democratic shared values).

If you look at political decisions in Atlantic Canada, it is clear the region is unique and that goes back centuries. There is little to no appreciation of this in the rest of Canada. Just like with food culture in the Maritimes. Which is fine--it's just one small region in a small country--so long as you don't assume that something you don't know about must not exist. But actually it would be a bit odd for Atlantic Canada not to have a somewhat distinct culture since it is geographically removed from other parts of Canada and was the first to be settled by Europeans.

[ssiguy]

Originally Posted by theman23

Is this like a make belief game of Sim City that we’re playing here? Also, why do you want to tax parking spots “astronomically” to subsidize free parking downtown?

If there’s one thing that actually MAY change after covid 19, it’s peoples willingness to be crammed into public transit. I don’t see much of an appetite for anything that would make car ownership more difficult.

It would in no way make car ownership more difficult. These kinds of measures are simply used to "right -size" a city. Anyone owning a car right now and living/shopping within the current urbanised area could actually see their car expenses decline. It would only effect new developments outside the urban core in order to refill the city.

All of these kinds of measures actually reduce costs and improve services to existing neighjbourhoods. Tax revenue and expenditures could both remain the same but how they are raised and were they are allocated are what would change.

[Truenorth00]

Again. Zero evidence for any of this. Managing growth is still a bigger problem than managing shrinkage for most cities in the country.

And if we're planning for smaller cities, the North American way is to let them become shitholes and abandon them eventually. Minimal planning required.

[hipster duck]

Originally Posted by Antigonish

The emphasis on food =/= culture is unironically low-brow. Culture is extremely nuanced but in our busy lives or how we can express things in 140 characters or less in our contemporary society people dumb things down to the lowest common denominator. Culture runs much deeper:
https://imgur.com/a/U0V65AX

After living in about half the regions in Canada (and visiting everywhere else extensively) I realize that living in a community that allows you to know all your neighbours and form social bonds, a place where you can leave your door unlocked with no worries, a place that values their elders/family bonds, supporting local entrepreneurs, a place where entertainment is self provided rather than expected to be provided... man I could go on and on. I understand that might not be the most popular opinion on a site like this but I can assure you that an overwhelming chunk of people in the under 35 crowd feel the same way; far more than even 5 years ago.

I agree with this too. Sociology and anthropology are the most fascinating topics for me nowadays, moreso than urban issues (which used to be my armchair passion when I first joined boards like these a decade ago). This is also why I argue against this idea that English Canadian culture west of Montreal is some cultural wasteland that's indistinguishable from the US. This is so not true, and, unlike things like cuisines and accents, this is provable with statistics.

Every place in the world has "below the iceberg", lower case "c" culture, but, unfortunately, none of that makes a place especially appealing to outsiders, and that's kind of what we're talking about in this thread. We do a lot of hand wringing about why young urbanites who are paying through the nose for housing won't consider moving to smaller towns. What could entice them there?

The below-the-iceberg culture is useful for being a more informed citizen, or from an armchair academic interest, but it can only go so far. Unfortunately, superificial appearances count, and as Truenorth says, superficially, Canadian small towns and cities are doing terribly. I don't care if people have ancient hidden customs, if 95% of the retail landscape is big box malls and 95% of the housing is subdivisions, and if the locals in that small town clamour for the opening of their 5th Tim Horton's and don't have a restaurant that doesn't just serve bagged Sysco fries, what appeal does it hold for me or other people who are going to uproot their families in the big city and settle there?

Finally, I should mention that when I'm looking for things in small towns, I'm neither expecting nor hoping for metropolitan culture to be grafted onto them. Like, I don't think that Belleville, Ontario should make it a goal to have a restaurant that serves Xiao Long Bao and another one that serves fusion cuisine on shared plates. I think this is better than corporate chain culture and orienting everything to the car, because it tastes better to me and driving is bad for your health and environment, but I would really like to see smaller towns doing their own thing, and doing it with gusto.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Every place in the world has "below the iceberg", lower case "c" culture, but, unfortunately, none of that makes a place especially appealing to outsiders, and that's kind of what we're talking about in this thread. We do a lot of hand wringing about why young urbanites who are paying through the nose for housing won't consider moving to smaller towns. What could entice them there?

One thing i've noticed in my short time in Toronto is that most in my friend circle are from smaller towns throughout Canada. Maritime towns, smaller Ontario towns, BC smaller towns. I don't know too many people my age actually from Toronto. If they're not from small towns in Canada they're probably from abroad. I'm sure part of it is just sample size.

I've been thinking lately about what that means sociologically for the makeup of large cities and what remains in small towns. It's probably not a great leap if I say that people who are more liberal or left-leaning are more likely to move to cities and concentrate there and the remnants remain in their smaller, more rural towns. It makes head-canon sense in the fact that those who stay in small towns have a certain mindset and those that leave have a different mindset, or just different life goals entirely.

Everything that i've learned in the past six months boils down to: if you want to live in Toronto, or any other massively large city, you have to work at it and really want it. It's not easy and it doesn't just happen. You have to actively strive and work for it. I contrast this to living in a smaller, more rural town where living there just sorta happens.

[wave46]

Originally Posted by JHikka

One thing i've noticed in my short time in Toronto is that most in my friend circle are from smaller towns throughout Canada. Maritime towns, smaller Ontario towns, BC smaller towns. I don't know too many people my age actually from Toronto. If they're not from small towns in Canada they're probably from abroad. I'm sure part of it is just sample size.

I've been thinking lately about what that means sociologically for the makeup of large cities and what remains in small towns. It's probably not a great leap if I say that people who are more liberal or left-leaning are more likely to move to cities and concentrate there and the remnants remain in their smaller, more rural towns. It makes head-canon sense in the fact that those who stay in small towns have a certain mindset and those that leave have a different mindset, or just different life goals entirely.

Everything that i've learned in the past six months boils down to: if you want to live in Toronto, or any other massively large city, you have to work at it and really want it. It's not easy and it doesn't just happen. You have to actively strive and work for it. I contrast this to living in a smaller, more rural town where living there just sorta happens.

I agree with your conclusion. Small towns by their nature have more limited opportunities, so unless you're content working in the industry they have to offer, you're kind of out of luck. Sure, there's a few professional-class positions but on the whole compared to a city the variety is peanuts.

It also depends what you're into. A small town isn't going to offer nightlife and entertainment options of a bigger city. So, unless you're into the outdoorsy thing your options will be quite limited there.

I think the culture of small towns is the product of this selection and that selection process tends to drive people who don't fit in there away.

It's also interesting to note how the link to little towns is broken through generations. The parents might be town lifers, but their children often move away for better opportunities. The link is completely severed with the grandchildren - the little town is just that weird place grandma and grandpa live. Unless there's something driving them back (and it has to be strong), it's a hard sale to get people to give up the amenities of a bigger city for a small town, especially one in the hinterland. I know - I've tried it.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Unfortunately, superificial appearances count, and as Truenorth says, superficially, Canadian small towns and cities are doing terribly. I don't care if people have ancient hidden customs, if 95% of the retail landscape is big box malls and 95% of the housing is subdivisions, and if the locals in that small town clamour for the opening of their 5th Tim Horton's and don't have a restaurant that doesn't just serve bagged Sysco fries, what appeal does it hold for me or other people who are going to uproot their families in the big city and settle there?

Some towns are like this and others aren't.

The successful towns in Canada tend to be somewhat within the orbit of a metropolitan area (for weekend shopping trips, emergency hospital visits, or the airport) and often they're part of small-town clusters that offer some specialization. While one town might offer utilitarian suburban sprawl shopping, there is a nicer one with a walkable core of boutiques and nice restaurants that's a 10 minute drive away.

This is how it works in NS. People often will talk about which county they live in (Lunenburg, Pictou, Kings. Colchester) and each one has a cluster of towns or you can drive to the city in an hour or so. In the Kings County area, Wolfville is the nicer town, Kentville/Windsor are okay, and New Minas is the utilitarian suburban mall area. In Lunenburg County, Lunenburg is the nicer town, Mahone Bay/Chester are nice too, and Bridgewater is the boring mall town. These towns are mostly about a 10 minute drive apart, actually much easier to travel between than suburbs in a big metro area.

It's similar in southern Vancouver Island and Niagara or around Kingston or Guelph.

One of the myths of SSP is that small town folk pick a town like Ladysmith BC to live in and never leave. In reality if you live there you can go to Victoria or Nanaimo in the same amount of time some people spend commuting on transit in Toronto.

The really dreary areas are the isolated northern towns that are just a blob of suburban box stores and then nothing for 2 hours but those places die unless they have unusually good employment prospects to keep people there. They must make up a tiny percentage of Canada's population.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by hipster duck

The below-the-iceberg culture is useful for being a more informed citizen, or from an armchair academic interest, but it can only go so far. Unfortunately, superificial appearances count, and as Truenorth says, superficially, Canadian small towns and cities are doing terribly. I don't care if people have ancient hidden customs, if 95% of the retail landscape is big box malls and 95% of the housing is subdivisions, and if the locals in that small town clamour for the opening of their 5th Tim Horton's and don't have a restaurant that doesn't just serve bagged Sysco fries, what appeal does it hold for me or other people who are going to uproot their families in the big city and settle there?

Exactly. The stuff that is below the waterline only applies once you actually live in a community. The stuff that would convince you to move is the stuff above the waterline.

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Finally, I should mention that when I'm looking for things in small towns, I'm neither expecting nor hoping for metropolitan culture to be grafted onto them. Like, I don't think that Belleville, Ontario should make it a goal to have a restaurant that serves Xiao Long Bao and another one that serves fusion cuisine on shared plates. I think this is better than corporate chain culture and orienting everything to the car, because it tastes better to me and driving is bad for your health and environment, but I would really like to see smaller towns doing their own thing, and doing it with gusto.

This is what I was getting at. They don't necessarily to replicate what big cities have. But they need to build around the best of what they have.

Originally Posted by someone123

Some towns are like this and others aren't.

The successful towns in Canada tend to be somewhat within the orbit of a metropolitan area (for weekend shopping trips, emergency hospital visits, or the airport) and often they're part of small-town clusters that offer some specialization. While one town might offer utilitarian suburban sprawl shopping, there is a nicer one with a walkable core of boutiques and nice restaurants that's a 10 minute drive away.

This is how it works in NS. People often will talk about which county they live in (Lunenburg, Pictou, Kings. Colchester) and each one has a cluster of towns or you can drive to the city in an hour or so. In the Kings County area, Wolfville is the nicer town, Kentville/Windsor are okay, and New Minas is the utilitarian suburban mall area. In Lunenburg County, Lunenburg is the nicer town, Mahone Bay/Chester are nice too, and Bridgewater is the boring mall town. These towns are mostly about a 10 minute drive apart, actually much easier to travel between than suburbs in a big metro area.

It's very similar in southern Vancouver Island and Niagara or around Kingston or Kitchener/Guelph have a similar thing going on.

I get the sense that some of our older/historical towns and cities tend to do this better than smaller turn of the century towns set up out West as agricultural outposts.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I get the sense that some of our older/historical towns and cities tend to do this better than smaller turn of the century towns set up out West as agricultural outposts.

This doesn't get much attention but an area like Lunenburg County NS has a pretty diverse economy. It has some farming and forestry (it has a lot of Christmas tree farms), a really good fishery, tourism, and manufacturing (Michelin plant). Industrial Cape Breton by contrast was pretty much only coal mining and steel. Pictou County was also closer to pure heavy industry and has more of a rust belt feel.

Pictou County is very historic but still struggling and sadly a lot of the historical stuff in New Glasgow has been torn down at this point.

Newfoundland has a lot of areas that are or were almost purely fishing.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by someone123

This doesn't get much attention but an area like Lunenburg County NS actually has a pretty diverse economy. It has some farming and forestry (actually it has a lot of Christmas tree farms), a really good fishery, tourism, and manufacturing (Michelin plant). Industrial Cape Breton by contrast was pretty much only coal mining and steel. Pictou County was also closer to pure industrial and has more of a rust belt feel.

I mean, the biggest difference between Lunenburg and Cape Breton is that the former is only a half hour/forty five minutes to Halifax, whereas the latter....is not. Being close in proximity to larger population centres is so important for these smaller areas.

[Antigonish]

Originally Posted by theman23

Is this like a make belief game of Sim City that we’re playing here? Also, why do you want to tax parking spots “astronomically” to subsidize free parking downtown?

If there’s one thing that actually MAY change after covid 19, it’s peoples willingness to be crammed into public transit. I don’t see much of an appetite for anything that would make car ownership more difficult.

I am of the stance that continued sin-taxation is regressive when looking at sustainable planning options. Instead of punishing people who are already stretched, why not plan our cities that REWARD people who live sustainably and that will allow the free market to help push peoples consumer choices?

Like, ssiguy says to tax parking spots astronomically - why not amend the zoning code to implement parking maximums with medium/high rise developments that fall under a TOD? Say, only 85% of units in a development has a parking spot. So if you are trying to sell those remaining 15% condo units, or apartment rentals, the free market price would then have to sell or rent lower than market rate? The only people willing to buy or rent don't own a car and bike/take transit everywhere and there are only so many of those people currently looking in the market?

Suddenly a condo that would normally sell for 600k with a parking spot might only be able to be sold on the market for like 450k because there are no parking options. It rewards people who use active transportation and highlights to the rest of the market how much you are paying for parking.

Originally Posted by someone123

If you look at political decisions in Atlantic Canada, it is clear the region is unique and that goes back centuries. There is little to no appreciation of this in the rest of Canada. Just like with food culture in the Maritimes. Which is fine--it's just one small region in a small country--so long as you don't assume that something you don't know about must not exist. But actually it would be a bit odd for Atlantic Canada not to have a somewhat distinct culture since it is geographically removed from other parts of Canada and was the first to be settled by Europeans.

Yep. Atlantica has always been geographically separated from the rest of English Canada by Quebec to the west, and our 'siblings' in Northern New England to the south. Sadly the low-brow culture queens lump us into the same basket of the suburban sprawl rat race that is a lot of Ontario and Alberta.

Originally Posted by hipster duck

Every place in the world has "below the iceberg", lower case "c" culture, but, unfortunately, none of that makes a place especially appealing to outsiders, and that's kind of what we're talking about in this thread. We do a lot of hand wringing about why young urbanites who are paying through the nose for housing won't consider moving to smaller towns. What could entice them there?

Cost of living.

The lure of the bright lights of the big city is a bit overblown but seems more popular among city planner types and "urbanists" so these circles are going to have their biases. In the end of the day most people don't really care for the costs of those conveniences over owning a home or being able to afford a family. What's holding back smaller areas is investment in their infrastructure, from having high speed or fibre optic internet connections and quaint walkable downtowns. With the whole COVID thing this is the best time for semi-rural regions to capitalize on this emerging trend. People move to large cities because of employment reasons rather than living some exciting urbanist lifestyle.

Originally Posted by JHikka

One thing i've noticed in my short time in Toronto is that most in my friend circle are from smaller towns throughout Canada. Maritime towns, smaller Ontario towns, BC smaller towns. I don't know too many people my age actually from Toronto. If they're not from small towns in Canada they're probably from abroad. I'm sure part of it is just sample size.

Its funny because I've noticed this in reverse from Ontarians who moved east for university. ~10 years later most from those overlapping social circles it's the ones from the GTA who stayed in the Maritimes and refuse to move back

Now I'm on the wrong side of 30 and just about everyone who hasn't moved back yet are frantically trying to make it work, even if it means taking a pay-cut. The age of moving to the big city to live the great millenial yuppie dream is dead. My older brother is gay and he and his partner live in Vancouver, his partner is a GP to put it into context; both of them want to get the fuck out of Vancouver ASAP because for all of its qualities its just too goddamn expensive and the two of them would rather move back to the Maritimes and live in a small town. Maybe spend their free time hiking and fishing rather than hanging out at drag shows or whatever. There has been a monolithic push from just about everybody to escape the city.

Originally Posted by someone123

Some towns are like this and others aren't.

The successful towns in Canada tend to be somewhat within the orbit of a metropolitan area (for weekend shopping trips, emergency hospital visits, or the airport) and often they're part of small-town clusters that offer some specialization. While one town might offer utilitarian suburban sprawl shopping, there is a nicer one with a walkable core of boutiques and nice restaurants that's a 10 minute drive away.

This is how it works in NS. People often will talk about which county they live in (Lunenburg, Pictou, Kings. Colchester) and each one has a cluster of towns or you can drive to the city in an hour or so. In the Kings County area, Wolfville is the nicer town, Kentville/Windsor are okay, and New Minas is the utilitarian suburban mall area. In Lunenburg County, Lunenburg is the nicer town, Mahone Bay/Chester are nice too, and Bridgewater is the boring mall town. These towns are mostly about a 10 minute drive apart, actually much easier to travel between than suburbs in a big metro area.

It's similar in southern Vancouver Island and Niagara or around Kingston or Guelph.

One of the myths of SSP is that small town folk pick a town like Ladysmith BC to live in and never leave. In reality if you live there you can go to Victoria or Nanaimo in the same amount of time some people spend commuting on transit in Toronto.

The really dreary areas are the isolated northern towns that are just a blob of suburban box stores and then nothing for 2 hours but those places die unless they have unusually good employment prospects to keep people there. They must make up a tiny percentage of Canada's population.

You summed it up perfectly. Considering the size of Canada - the Atlantica region is quite geographically small particularly the Maritime region. If Atlantica was its own country it would stand out far more than just a forgotten and uncared part of Canada; it would feel more European in my opinion. People from here are used to driving 3 hours round-trip to Costco on the weekend. Commuting from one village to a bigger town 20-30 minutes down the road for work isn't uncommon either. That is still superior than living in a suburb of a large wasteland of a city (cough Edmonton cough) so why spend twice as much in living costs to do that if you don't have to?

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Antigonish

You summed it up perfectly. Considering the size of Canada - the Atlantica region is quite geographically small particularly the Maritime region. If Atlantica was its own country it would stand out far more than just a forgotten and uncared part of Canada; it would feel more European in my opinion.

It'll be interesting to see what happens now that demographics and economics in the Maritimes are a bit healthier (or were pre-pandemic, who knows after). Around 2000 there was such a siege mentality in NS that there were limited distinctive constructive provincial-level policies (questionable job creation schemes, industrial welfare) and there wasn't much ambition development-wise, but that is changing.

I always thought the CMA/metro or urban/rural model was a bad fit for the central part of the Maritimes. It just doesn't fit the settlement patterns. An economic region model makes more sense and Statistics Canada even has those but they have nonsensical borders in the Maritimes. The real divisions are county level, then sub-provincial regions (e.g. Central vs Western NS), then interprovincial (central Maritimes, the crescent running from NS up through NB plus PEI). The Prairies on the other hand have the more standard metros.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by Antigonish

Sadly the low-brow culture queens lump us into the same basket of the suburban sprawl rat race that is a lot of Ontario and Alberta.

I think the standard model of Canadian culture is that you're either in Hoserville (a sterotype largely given to us by American TV) or you have some kind of distinct carved out reputation. Quebec is well-known because of French and Newfoundland sort of has a reputation due to self-promotion through Canadian media. People are hazy on the Maritimes vs. Atlantic distinction. A place like NB is generally a complete "?" so it goes in Hoserville.

If you look at a map and have an understanding of how North America was settled it's obviously pretty implausible that you're going to have one island (NL) that is distinct but then the next island over (CB) is the same as ON which is 1000 km away and not connected by a territory where people speak the same language but that's not how people generally look at it. Yet a lot of those people would not be able to tell the difference between a North Sydney or Corner Brook accent.

Also, even if you do subscribe to the superficial language = culture theory I don't know how Acadians are supposed to fit into all of this. That is the oldest permanent resident European-derived culture in Canada and their native tongue is French. So how could they possibly be considered indistinguishable from Southern Ontario?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think the standard model of Canadian culture is that you're either in Hoserville (a sterotype largely given to us by American TV) or you have some kind of distinct carved out reputation. Quebec is well-known because of French and Newfoundland sort of has a reputation due to self-promotion through Canadian media. People are hazy on the Maritimes vs. Atlantic distinction. A place like NB is generally a complete "?" so it goes in Hoserville.

My biggest contention with NB is that it doesn't do anything stereotypically well in comparison to any of the other Atlantic Provinces. If people think of the fisherman stereotype they think of NL or NS, if they think of the beaches or outdoorsy activities it's NS or PEI. Basically, NB doesn't do anything super well that the other three can't do. Maybe if you're looking for a Francophone experience NB outclasses the other provinces but if you're west of it in Canada you may as well just go to QC for that.

NB doesn't have a distinct culture to seperate it or make itself stand out from the other Maritime provinces, so it's almost literally lost in the woods. I think a lot of this comes down to the time spent infighting between the anglophones and francophones, and the urbanists and ruralists.

[Nashe]

Originally Posted by someone123

It'll be interesting to see what happens now that demographics and economics in the Maritimes are a bit healthier (or were pre-pandemic, who knows after). Around 2000 there was such a siege mentality in NS that there were limited distinctive constructive provincial-level policies (questionable job creation schemes, industrial welfare) and there wasn't much ambition development-wise, but that is changing.

It may only be anecdotal but I believe I've been seeing a higher than normal influx of people from ON and west to SE NB in the past few years. Housing is still so very cheap in comparison. No, we don't have any large cities, but for many people it appears they are now able to put a price tag on "that big city vibe" ... not all are retirees, either, and I'm interested to see how things pan out in the next 2 years due to growing numbers of work-from-home positions being realized.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

My biggest contention with NB is that it doesn't do anything stereotypically well in comparison to any of the other Atlantic Provinces. If people think of the fisherman stereotype they think of NL or NS, if they think of the beaches or outdoorsy activities it's NS or PEI. Basically, NB doesn't do anything super well that the other three can't do. Maybe if you're looking for a Francophone experience NB outclasses the other provinces but if you're west of it in Canada you may as well just go to QC for that.

NB doesn't have a distinct culture to seperate it or make itself stand out from the other Maritime provinces, so it's almost literally lost in the woods. I think a lot of this comes down to the time spent fighting between the anglophones and francophones, and the urbanists and ruralists.

NB is a case of provincial boundaries not matching a natural geographic "cradle" of historic settlement (e.g. St. Lawrence river valley or Lower Mainland BC). It is just the northern end of Acadia and the Fundy basin. It was a "rump" territory with sparse settlement when the British conquered peninsular Acadia in 1713. On top of that it ended up with a mix of Acadian and Loyalist influences, one reason for the Saint John vs. Moncton schism (where Moncton tends to be pro-bilingualism and SJ tends to be the opposite). It has always had a nebulous identity.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Vorkuta

It may only be anecdotal but I believe I've been seeing a higher than normal influx of people from ON and west to SE NB in the past few years. Housing is still so very cheap in comparison. No, we don't have any large cities, but for many people it appears they are now able to put a price tag on "that big city vibe" ... not all are retirees, either, and I'm interested to see how things pan out in the next 2 years due to growing numbers of work-from-home positions being realized.

There's no way to calculate it for sure but there have been a number of different indicators implying that what you're suggesting is true.

• StatCan data for interprovincial migrants shows SE NB seeing a lot of incoming newcomers to the province, primarily from ON and BC.
• Anecdotal evidence from social media of people asking for information or help moving from ON/BC to NB. They're not difficult to find on a place like reddit.
• We won't have more solid numbers until the next census but language data is a dead giveaway to shifting interprovincial figures in primarily francophone areas. As you can guess, most people from ON/BC speak English as a first language, so when subregional language figures for NB come out and the language swings more to EN from FR it's safe to say interprovincial migration is one of the causes. It's not an exact science but it would explain big language shifts we've seen so far in Kent and Westmorland from primarily Francophone dominant to more 30/70 EN/FR.

Originally Posted by someone123

NB is a case of provincial boundaries not matching a natural geographic "cradle" of historic settlement (e.g. St. Lawrence river valley or Lower Mainland BC). It is just the northern end of Acadia and the Fundy basin. It was a "rump" territory with sparse settlement when the British conquered peninsular Acadia in 1713. On top of that it ended up with a mix of Acadian and Loyalist influences, one reason for the Saint John vs. Moncton schism (where Moncton tends to be pro-bilingualism and SJ tends to be the opposite). It has always had a nebulous identity.

The nebulous identity makes the province internally very interesting but makes it get lost in traffic for the rest of the country.

It will be really interesting to see how this all plays out as Moncton becomes more and more the population centre of NB, with Fredericton tailing behind it.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

The nebulous identity makes the province internally very interesting but makes it get lost in traffic for the rest of the country.

NB has a big image problem which doesn't matter much except I guess if the goal is to attract migrants who might move to a city like Moncton from out of province.

To illustrate, Moncton is virtually identical year-round-temperature-wise to Peterborough ON. Also Moncton is a 2.5 hour drive from Halifax and an 8 hour drive from Boston. Yet many Canadians seem to imagine all of NB as comparable to say Timmins or maybe Fort McMurray minus job prospects.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by someone123

NB has a big image problem which doesn't matter much except I guess if the goal is to attract migrants who might move to a city like Moncton from out of province.

To illustrate, Moncton is virtually identical year-round-temperature-wise to Peterborough ON. Also Moncton is a 2.5 hour drive from Halifax and an 8 hour drive from Boston. Yet many Canadians think of all of NB as being on par with Northern Ontario or maybe the territories in terms of cold and remoteness.

I would contend with this by saying that most Canadians don't think about NB at all. Most of the time when people are thinking of moving to NB they're considering jobs, home prices, and relative services. A lot ask about language requirements, which I think scares off a lot of people from Moncton and towards Halifax. Just speaking anecdotally, a lot of people in Toronto consider Halifax a really great city and someplace they'd consider living - Moncton, and NB, never come up, and honestly i'd recommend Halifax to them as well over NB options. I don't really think people are considering the fact that Moncton's climate is the same as Peterborough's or whatever.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Just speaking anecdotally, a lot of people in Toronto consider Halifax a really great city and someplace they'd consider living - Moncton, and NB, never come up, and honestly i'd recommend Halifax to them as well over NB options. I don't really think people are considering the fact that Moncton's climate is the same as Peterborough's or whatever.

But you're talking about the people who ask about NB. A lot are never interested at all because they are turned off by stereotypes. Here in BC a lot of people rule out the Maritimes completely due to an assumed weak economy, remoteness, and poor climate. They basically think NB is a wasteland not worth investigating as a destination to move to.

For Moncton vs. Halifax a lot of it comes down to what style of place you want to live in. If you are a medium income earner and primarily just want a big house and lots of consumer goods, Moncton is a better bet. If you want more day-to-day urban amenities or vibrancy Moncton will not satisfy.

It's a similar dynamic for people thinking about living in Vancouver. Do you have millions of dollars or make $200,000 per year or more and have a tolerance for multi-unit living? Then Vancouver is great. Are you going to earn $18 an hour and dream of home ownership? Don't even think about moving here! Maybe move to Moncton where you can have a middle class lifestyle.