Why Do Canadian Skylines Overperform Relative To Their Metro Populations?

[mhays]

A necessity in the suburbs maybe.

A lot of young adults escape to urban universities where they can walk and use transit. Car ownership can be very low in these places. Then they graduate and move to the bigger urban cores, which they can afford (many of them) on starting office salaries with roommates and no cars.

[JManc]

^ Most universities are not in urban areas (with adequate transportation) so unless you live on campus and work close by, probably still need a car while in college.

Originally Posted by jtown,man

True. But the percentages are small.

As others have stated, the innate desire for a car/ freedom at 16 is not what is motivating younger folks to get a license but out of pure necessity. When I was 16, I could not wait to get my license and first car.

[dc_denizen]

...and this is why traffic deaths in America are 3-5x higher than Europe

no 16 year old is mature enough to operate a potentially lethal machine like a car

upscale suburbs across the country are full of 16 year old children in BMWs doing 20 miles over the speed limit in a 35 mph zone

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by dc_denizen

...and this is why traffic deaths in America are 3-5x higher than Europe

no 16 year old is mature enough to operate a potentially lethal machine like a car

upscale suburbs across the country are full of 16 year old children in BMWs doing 20 miles over the speed limit in a 35 mph zone

I doubt driving age has much to do with the disparity. It's almost certainly because people in the U.S. spend far more time driving than people do in Europe.

[Innsertnamehere]

One factor for it in Canada is likely higher insurance rates, especially for young people.

Many young people today put off car ownership as it is prohibitively expense at a young age. A clean record young person is typically looking at $300/month minimum for car insurance alone in Ontario..

I remember looking into buying a car when I lived in Toronto. Even if I bought a junker for cash with no car payments, I was looking at about $800/month in operating costs once I paid for parking ($300 for home and work), insurance ($300), and gas ($200). That doesn't include repairs or maintenance.

Now I live in Hamilton and a car is much cheaper to operate.. It's a junker with free work and home parking and we pay about $125/month per person for insurance, so probably closer to $350 a month total, outside of repairs and maintenance.

That's the difference why young people don't "care" about cars. They care, but not enough to spend $800/month to drive a 15 year old Honda Civic around when the bus gets them there in 50% more time and costs literally 1/8th as much.

I imagine this also drives densities in Canadian cities. If you are going to go car free, you are going to care a whole lot more where you live to make sure you are close to transit and in a walkable area. You will sacrifice a smaller living space to accomplish that as the penalty to get that extra living space is much steeper than when you are a car owner.

16% of Canadian households do not have access to a car. Only 8.7% of US households do not.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

That's the difference why young people don't "care" about cars. They care, but not enough to spend $800/month to drive a 15 year old Honda Civic around when the bus gets them there in 50% more time and costs literally 1/8th as much.

But not in the U.S. Teen car usage rates are plummeting, while transit ridership is flat or dropping.

I'm not exactly sure how U.S. teens get around in 2020. Parents, I guess? 90% of the U.S. is somewhat-to-completely sprawly, so they aren't walking, biking or taking transit. Uber/Lyft isn't that reliable in sprawl.

Having grown up in Midwest sprawl, basically everyone had a license at 16. Given it was an affluent area, most had vehicles. It definitely wasn't cool to have your parents drive you around. There was no transit, and no one walked or biked. This was 20 years ago, though.

[Innsertnamehere]

Same here, but make it 10 years ago instead of 20. Grew up in a small town on the edge of the Toronto commuter belt.

I was the only guy in my group of friends that had a full license though, and I inevitably ferried everyone around whenever we did something.

I then moved to Toronto for university, and almost none of my classmates drove to class or owned a vehicle. A few that lived at home in the burbs did, but even then usually still took the bus every day since parking was so expensive. Many didn't have licenses. I didn't use my license much then, at one point I think I went as much as 4 months without even stepping into a vehicle of any kind (I was a cheap bastard and would take transit instead of cabs whenever possible). By graduation many still didn't have licenses and many who had gotten their learners permit in high school had seen it expire and had to restart.

I personally never got it. I lived car free in Toronto for 7 years and even then always found it useful to have my license for the odd car rental or for borrowing my parents car when visiting.

[DZH22]

Part of the problem is they have "restricted licenses" now which didn't necessarily exist in the past, at least not to this extent. Check out the below linked list. In many states teens can't get their "full licenses" until 17 or even 18 years old. This typically means they aren't going to be allowed to drive around with just their friends. If you're a junior in high school who can't drive that cute sophomore around, I guess that would kill the draw a bit.

https://www.verywellfamily.com/drivi...-state-2611172

[GreaterMontréal]

When I was 16, we all had our license and we all had a car. Each one of us also had their own car. It was the norm back then.

Having grown up in Midwest sprawl, basically everyone had a license at 16. Given it was an affluent area, most had vehicles. It definitely wasn't cool to have your parents drive you around. There was no transit, and no one walked or biked. This was 20 years ago, though.

same thing, everything was like that in the small town (50k) where I lived in southern Quebec 20 years ago.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by DZH22

Part of the problem is they have "restricted licenses" now which didn't necessarily exist in the past, at least not to this extent. Check out the below linked list. In many states teens can't get their "full licenses" until 17 or even 18 years old. This typically means they aren't going to be allowed to drive around with just their friends. If you're a junior in high school who can't drive that cute sophomore around, I guess that would kill the draw a bit.

https://www.verywellfamily.com/drivi...-state-2611172

At least in Ontario, if you do your graduated licensing as fast as you can, and are born early in the year, you can drive by yourself usually by the second half of 11th grade. But yea, you would be 17.

It's really only a thing for Grade 12 where kids are regularly able to drive. Except in Alberta, where you get your learners permit at 14 and can drive by yourself at 16.

Good luck getting insurance on your own car at that point though. Probably $500/month or something ridiculous, which a high schooler would be spending most of their disposable $$ on.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by DZH22

Part of the problem is they have "restricted licenses" now which didn't necessarily exist in the past, at least not to this extent. Check out the below linked list. In many states teens can't get their "full licenses" until 17 or even 18 years old. This typically means they aren't going to be allowed to drive around with just their friends. If you're a junior in high school who can't drive that cute sophomore around, I guess that would kill the draw a bit.

https://www.verywellfamily.com/drivi...-state-2611172

This is a big part of it I feel. I got my MA permit on my 16th birthday and passed the driver's exam about a week after I turned 16 and a half, the earliest you could get a license in Mass in 1998. I could legally drive around in my 1992 Chevy Lumin (the "a" fell off) with 4 other 16 year-old high school sophomores. And I drove my then-14 year-old brother to school with me every morning. That's insane. We were not mature enough for that and to this day I wonder how we all lived through high school, given some of the absolutely idiotic shit we did with our cars.

A few years later, Mass wisely implemented the junior operator license. Now kids could only drive by themselves, and they couldn't be on the road past 12:30 AM.

And yes, we pretty much all had cars. Most of them were older models we'd buy from our parents for $1 and then we'd be added to their insurance policies. This was in a solidly middle-class town too, not a wealthy Metro West burb. You pretty much had to have a car then if you wanted to work after school or during the summer; you can't have mom and dad drive you to and from your work when they've taken both their cars to work already.

Another big point I feel: the price of gas. When I just started driving, we were at all-time lows for gas. You could get 89 cents a gallon in suburban Boston on those 4-cents-off Wednesdays at Cumberland Farms in the late 90s. I could fill that Lumina's tank for $10. Even accounting for inflation, that was incredibly cheap: less than two hours of 1998-Mass-minimum-wage work. How many hours does a Gen Z kid have to work now to fill his or her tank?

[rsbear]

Originally Posted by Shawn

How many hours does a Gen Z kid have to work now to fill his or her tank?

About two hours, or less, depending upon rate of pay. Minimum wage in Los Angeles is $14.25 per hour ($15.00 per hour effective July 1st). Regular gas is about $2.75 per gallon. A 10 gallon fill-up would be about $27.50.

[Shawn]

Originally Posted by rsbear

About hours, or less, depending upon rate of pay. Minimum wage in Los Angeles is $14.25 per hour ($15.00 per hour effective July 1st). Regular gas is about $2.75 per gallon. A 10 gallon fill-up would be about $27.50.

Wow, my price gauge is all out of whack. I remember gas jumping to around $2.75 a gallon after 9-11 and thinking how quickly driving had become more expensive. But if it's still around that much now with minimum wages triple what I was working for, it looks like teens can drive for about as cheaply as I did.

[rsbear]

Originally Posted by Shawn

Wow, my price gauge is all out of whack. I remember gas jumping to around $2.75 a gallon after 9-11 and thinking how quickly driving had become more expensive. But if it's still around that much now with minimum wages triple what I was working for, it looks like teens can drive for about as cheaply as I did.

When I got my license minimum wage (which is what I made at the local Pizza parlor) was $3.10 per hour and gas was about $.60 per gallon. At that time my mom said, emphatically, if gas goes to $.65 a gallon she would never drive again (she still drove). So, 41 years ago one hour of minimum wage work bought about 5 gallons of gas, and it still does today (at least in Los Angeles).

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

At least in Ontario, if you do your graduated licensing as fast as you can, and are born early in the year, you can drive by yourself usually by the second half of 11th grade. But yea, you would be 17.
.

One of my kids is in that age. It is the same in Quebec.

Once you get your full license (usually around 17, after spending your 16th year in driver's ed and driving around with your parents on your learner's permit), you can drive by yourself with other people in the car.

But there are limits to how many people you can have in the car with you after midnight. I think you're only allowed one other person who isn't a member of your family. So parents and brothers and sisters are OK. But not a car full of your teenaged friends.

[Crawford]

U.S. teen workforce participation has plummeted. Upper class teens are using that time prepping for college. The rest usually can't find legal jobs under the new hourly restrictions (most states now restrict weeknight hours) and there are transportation issues. Also, the new higher minimum wages often exclude teens, so it might not be worthwhile.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Shawn

This is a big part of it I feel. I got my MA permit on my 16th birthday and passed the driver's exam about a week after I turned 16 and a half, the earliest you could get a license in Mass in 1998. I could legally drive around in my 1992 Chevy Lumin (the "a" fell off) with 4 other 16 year-old high school sophomores. And I drove my then-14 year-old brother to school with me every morning. That's insane. We were not mature enough for that and to this day I wonder how we all lived through high school, given some of the absolutely idiotic shit we did with our cars.

A few years later, Mass wisely implemented the junior operator license. Now kids could only drive by themselves, and they couldn't be on the road past 12:30 AM.

And yes, we pretty much all had cars. Most of them were older models we'd buy from our parents for $1 and then we'd be added to their insurance policies. This was in a solidly middle-class town too, not a wealthy Metro West burb. You pretty much had to have a car then if you wanted to work after school or during the summer; you can't have mom and dad drive you to and from your work when they've taken both their cars to work already.

I went to high school in Ontario. I lived in an upper middle class suburban area and the high schools I went to were either in suburban locations or on the fringes of the inner city. They all had some degree of parking available for students but I don't recall there being parking passes or anything like that.

But coming to school by driving yourself certainly wasn't very common. That was something we saw in the movies - American of course. Kids coming to high school in luxury sports cars (as in the movies again) was non-existent.

Sure, some kids did but they were quite rare. I don't recall any of my friends doing that. At the most, it was more like a special treat, as in: "I've got the car today! Let's go to McDonald's for lunch!"

And at the time I went to high school (late 80s) Ontario actually had a 13th grade so we were in high school until we were about 18 and some were even 19. Still, most Grade 13 kids didn't drive to come to school. It seems like driving to your place of study didn't become a thing until you finished high school and went to community college or university. And even then that depended on the location of the institution.

That said, as soon as we were 16, cars driven by friends became very common for evening and weekend outings. There was usually someone available to give you a lift if you didn't have one yourself.

We still used transit on occasion to go out into my early 20s but that was mostly to avoid the drunk driving issue.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rsbear

About hours, or less, depending upon rate of pay. Minimum wage in Los Angeles is $14.25 per hour ($15.00 per hour effective July 1st). Regular gas is about $2.75 per gallon. A 10 gallon fill-up would be about $27.50.

I just did a quick calculation based on me and my teens.

When I was working for minimum wage in the late 80s it would have taken about 5 hours to fill my current car's tank, at the average price per litre back then. (Gas is more expensive here than in the U.S.)

At today's minimum wage and gas prices, my kids have to work 4.5 hours to fill the same tank.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But coming to school by driving yourself certainly wasn't very common. That was something we saw in the movies - American of course. Kids coming to high school in luxury sports cars (as in the movies again) was non-existent.

This was common in my (suburban, fairly wealthy, Midwest, public) high school in the late 1990's. The vast majority of kids had cars and a not-insubstantial number had luxury cars. The kids' cars were, on average, nicer than the teachers/administrators cars. This was Metro Detroit, so plenty of parents had access to "free" luxury cars (we had the children of multiple Big 3 CEOs and CFOs as well as the children of CEOs of major suppliers). And I remember friends with lots of nice but non-luxury cars. Pathfinders, 4-Runners, Grand Cherokees, Cabriolets, Supras.

But this may have changed with helicopter parenting. I cannot imagine giving a 16 yo a vehicle. And I remember doing some extremely stupid shit. I had an old car, my parents weren't wealthy or in the auto industry.

College was the first place where I encountered car-free peers. I went to a college that was heavily NY/NJ/CT, and I believe all those states had 17 minimum driving age at the time. And all the kids from NYC didn't have licenses.

[DZH22]

Originally Posted by Shawn

This is a big part of it I feel. I got my MA permit on my 16th birthday and passed the driver's exam about a week after I turned 16 and a half, the earliest you could get a license in Mass in 1998....

A few years later, Mass wisely implemented the junior operator license. Now kids could only drive by themselves, and they couldn't be on the road past 12:30 AM.

They actually changed this earlier than you think. I also got my license in MA pretty much as early as I could, which for me was August 1998. At the time it was considered a full license. However, around 4 months in (so likely January 1999) they suddenly said I wasn't allowed to drive my friends anymore until I was 17. I decided to ignore that law completely and "grandfather" myself in, so to speak. I had no incident between then and turning 17 so I can't say what the consequences would have been if I was pulled over!