Green Line LRT - $4.6 Billion Project

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by lucx

Criticism is stronger when it passes scrutiny. The critique of a centre-loading station did not pass examination. A debate on the greater value of this project deserves strong evidence rather than revelations that are easily challenged.

Lastly, pro-Green Line is equally valid. It's OK to support the project as much as to oppose it. It's a disservice to the debate when support or opposition is equated to fawning. Opposition isn't wrong but when evidence is weak or untrue it deservedly gets challenged.

It's not a revelation, just further evidence of the obvious shittiness of the street running section. Rather than a transfer on the same platform or adjacent to it, bus users have to cross 16 Ave to make the transfer. This sort of thing has all been predicted, but we only now have the proper evidence to show it for sure.

What's worse, this is only the start. The aim is to have this run for another few kilometers north. Good luck with that - once people experience the mass disruption during construction and awfulness of the final product the resistance to doing it all the way up centre St will be stronger.

[Corndogger]

I'm scrolling through LRT on the Green's Twitter feed and came across this gem.

LRTontheGreen@LRTontheGreen
·
Jun 1
Important revelation being made @nenshi that the federal government is planning to launch public transit funding mid-decade that he believes will allow incremental #greenlineyyc expansion to the north & southeast. Important to build the critical core section first though. #yyccc

Source: https://twitter.com/LRTontheGreen/st...00028538437636

When did the feds say this because if they did why has it not been a more prominent part of the discussion? Even if they did say it should we be basing our decision based on this funding? If additional funding is coming does it make sense to start building an at grade line that 99% of people do not want? Lastly, where would Calgary get it's share of the funding and would the province chip in?

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by milomilo

It's an issue because we are ruining a road at great expense. Shepard is a wasteland, almost no-one is going to do a bus-train commute to there. So the section north of the river serves very little practical transit purpose (besides the true purpose, as stated by our mayor, to beachhead a shoddy line north of the river, to force future Calgary's hand).

The people pushing this the hardest don't care if the vast majority of people don't want a line running at surface and taking away valuable road capacity. This is going to be Druh's and some in the administration final kick to our collective nuts.

[milomilo]

To expand on my point, I've heard a few times that "if we don't go north of the river now we never will". This demands some scrutiny, if we unpack what is meant by this, they are saying that if the Green Line is not built without the Centre St section, then there will be no justification for building the north section in the future. Why is that? If the north Calgary line is worth doing, then there should be nothing stopping future us building it. But what people are arguing is that the line actually won't be justifiable in the future, but that people need to be tricked into having the line half built today, to force their hand.

This type of flagrant dishonesty has been very common from the strongest Green Line supporters, they will support the project 100% no matter the credible concerns. It's irritating to those of us with half a brain who actually support public transit as it discredits the argument. It's similar to the debate over the Olympics - there were good arguments for it but they were drowned out by the fucking idiocy spouted by its most vocal supporters.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by milomilo

To expand on my point, I've heard a few times that "if we don't go north of the river now we never will". This demands some scrutiny, if we unpack what is meant by this, they are saying that if the Green Line is not built without the Centre St section, then there will be no justification for building the north section in the future. Why is that? If the north Calgary line is worth doing, then there should be nothing stopping future us building it. But what people are arguing is that the line actually won't be justifiable in the future, but that people need to be tricked into having the line half built today, to force their hand.

This type of flagrant dishonesty has been very common from the strongest Green Line supporters, they will support the project 100% no matter the credible concerns. It's irritating to those of us with half a brain who actually support public transit as it discredits the argument. It's similar to the debate over the Olympics - there were good arguments for it but they were drowned out by the fucking idiocy spouted by its most vocal supporters.

I have a feeling we'll be getting a lot more dishonesty along with a lot of "The north deserves LRT. We've been waiting 30 years for this!" We're going to end up with a $5+ billion disaster.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

I have a feeling we'll be getting a lot more dishonesty along with a lot of "The north deserves LRT. We've been waiting 30 years for this!" We're going to end up with a $5+ billion disaster.

Well I happen to agree that the north should get LRT, or rail transit of some form. I just cannot support this LRT.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't think the street running will be awful. But I also don't see the apocalyptic view that truncating will mean no LRT forever. It certainly will mean no north LRT for a long time.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Well I happen to agree that the north should get LRT, or rail transit of some form. I just cannot support this LRT.

Assuming this goes ahead as currently planned I can see the silent majority killing off any expansion unless it involves fixing the initial mistake and putting the entire segment other below ground or elevated. People who live along 4th Street N.W. and Edmonton Trail are not going to be happy with increased traffic and I can't see too many businesses along Center Street being happy. And are the people who use transit going to be happy with a slow tram? I think they might end up being the biggest opponents of any expansion after they see what a disaster the first stub is going to end up being.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

I don't think the street running will be awful. But I also don't see the apocalyptic view that truncating will mean no LRT forever. It certainly will mean no north LRT for a long time.

But if more money is coming in five years or so that wouldn't be such a long wait. Even if they build to 16 Avenue now that won't be done until 2026 or later.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

But if more money is coming in five years or so that wouldn't be such a long wait. Even if they build to 16 Avenue now that won't be done until 2026 or later.

I think it is likely that instead the SE line would be built to completion, and then the infil stations on the red line, the 8th Ave subway, and the south extension on the redline would be built before the NC LRT in the event that the line is truncated at Eau Claire.
That wouldn't be awful, just how I think prioritization would lead things.

[Pegasus]

A shovel ready project? Supported by Calgary citizens? Clearly thought out and designed? Worthy of provincial and federal support? And can Calgary taxpayers afford this right now (when they are still reeling from recent massive tax hikes)? Not yet, IMO.

Also the world has changed. The need for this project does not seem to have taken into account future (changing) transportation needs and patterns that will be impacted by COVID-19 (will people want to return to packed LRT cars and buses, and will more and more work from home)? Also we have a very different energy situation (North America oil oversupply and climate change concerns - neither were such a big and decisive factors in recovering from previous Calgary recessions).

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

I think it is likely that instead the SE line would be built to completion, and then the infil stations on the red line, the 8th Ave subway, and the south extension on the redline would be built before the NC LRT in the event that the line is truncated at Eau Claire.
That wouldn't be awful, just how I think prioritization would lead things.

If it's that far down the list maybe the case for it isn't all that strong.

I still think putting all of the lines underground through downtown should be the number one priority. Second would be an extension to the airport if the S.E. line isn't built all the way to Seton now.

[lucx]

Originally Posted by milomilo

To expand on my point, I've heard a few times that "if we don't go north of the river now we never will". This demands some scrutiny

The mayor used to support a separated North line down Centre Street bridge. Back of a napkin estimate has this at $2.25 billion. More importantly that $2.25 must come in one lump sum to build from downtown to a maintenance facility at 96 Ave. The current plan costs $1.5 billion to reach 96 Ave but spread out over many years.

Could administration recommended building the North option before the southeast? Sure. You'll have the same battles about a portal in Chinatown, removing traffic lanes on Centre, etc. If people think this is a good idea they can let their councilors know.

[accord1999]

If the cost of going to 96th Ave is now "only" $1.5B and if the City is confident of getting more money in the next 5 years, then Stage 1 should just be expanded to $6-$6.5B now, going to Beddington or 96th. With this change, you add 30K+ ridership/day, get back Gondek's support, not waste time on insignificant BRT changes, provide useful mobility gain for all that Centre Street pain and no more questions about why we're building a tiny but expensive stub across the river.

It's a bigger ask, especially for the current Gov of AB but an expanded Stage 1 is more compelling in that it will actually offer something for everyone again and have better political support. $4.9B just isn't enough and trying to fit something into that budget is hurting the line more than helping it.

[outoftheice]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

The people pushing this the hardest don't care if the vast majority of people don't want a line running at surface and taking away valuable road capacity. This is going to be Druh's and some in the administration final kick to our collective nuts.

Having attended many of the engagement session for Green Line I think this issue is the one with the biggest disconnect. The communities along Centre St are more than happy with LRT on the surface because what they hate even more is the status quo situation where people from the far flung 'burbs clog Centre St with traffic every morning and evening cruising through these communities without stopping. This is why we saw at Monday's committee meeting both the Crescent Heights Community Association and the Crescent Heights Business Improvement Area come out in support of the Centre St surface running alignment.


From what I saw at the engagement and was supported by the public submissions to committee, it's not the Calgarians in these communities against the idea of surface running LRT. It's the Calgarians whose commute takes them through these communities without a thought or care on the impact their commute actually has on the tens of thousands of people who actually live there. So I'm okay with building a train designed with the communities it passes through in mind because the drivers it inconveniences will eventually be able to hop on the train and stop driving anyways.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by accord1999

If the cost of going to 96th Ave is now "only" $1.5B and if the City is confident of getting more money in the next 5 years, then Stage 1 should just be expanded to $6-$6.5B now, going to Beddington or 96th. With this change, you add 30K+ ridership/day, get back Gondek's support, not waste time on insignificant BRT changes, provide useful mobility gain for all that Centre Street pain and no more questions about why we're building a tiny but expensive stub across the river.

It's a bigger ask, especially for the current Gov of AB but an expanded Stage 1 is more compelling in that it will actually offer something for everyone again and have better political support. $4.9B just isn't enough and trying to fit something into that budget is hurting the line more than helping it.

It's really unfortunate that the construction expert dude was forced out. He seemed to know what he was talking about and didn't sugarcoat things. I'm pretty sure he said it would cost $7.7 billion to do this right and nothing I've seen since then makes his estimate look wrong. With the huge downturn we might be able to get some good deals and could save hundreds of millions of dollars. I'd rather spend the extra money and do this right than spend $5+ billion on a project that benefits very few.

[lucx]

If Centre Street becomes a community street with less traffic, it may be acceptable for LRT to cross 16 Ave at grade. This saves $250 million for an underground station. The rest of Centre seems fairly simple with only a tunnel under McKnight. Assuming $100 million/km, you can get to 64 Ave for a cool $550 million, Beddington for $750 million. There appears to be a large contingency in the $4.9 billion budget. If everything goes right, its possible there may be enough left over to get to 64 Ave.

[lucx]

Originally Posted by milomilo

It's not a revelation, just further evidence of the obvious shittiness of the street running section. Rather than a transfer on the same platform or adjacent to it, bus users have to cross 16 Ave to make the transfer.

Once again, why would someone get off a bus at 16 Ave to transfer to a train at 16 Ave when they can stay on the bus to go downtown? This is where your argument falls apart. If they need to transfer for whatever reason, they can do it at the side-loading 9 Ave station.

Originally Posted by accord1999

If the cost of going to 96th Ave is now "only" $1.5B and if the City is confident of getting more money in the next 5 years, then Stage 1 should just be expanded to $6-$6.5B now, going to Beddington or 96th.

Premiere Kenny won't fund any more of the Green Line until stage 1 is underway. Any extensions will be part of stage 2.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by lucx

Once again, why would someone get off a bus at 16 Ave to transfer to a train at 16 Ave when they can stay on the bus to go downtown? This is where your argument falls apart. If they need to transfer for whatever reason, they can do it at the side-loading 9 Ave station.

And once again, that's basically the point. The section north of the river is useless, and for that reason the money should be spent on a part of the line that actually provides benefit.

[outoftheice]

According to the information provided to Council at the Green Line Committee meeting, the 16th Ave station will be the third busiest on stage 1 of the Green Line and one of the busiest LRT stations outside of the downtown core on either the Red, Blue or Green Lines. If that is "basically useless" how would you describe the majority of Calgary's LRT stations?