Planning for shrinking cities

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by someone123

Not sure I really agree with this. I used to go to a great farmers' market that has operated since 1750. They are all over around here too, with some awesome stuff that is accessible to anybody. The small towns tend to have them as well.

If you travel around rural NS you can get good seafood in all kinds of hole-in-the-wall places. It is not really something I appreciated when I lived there. It is similar here in BC with the local fisheries. And people always ate this stuff in these areas, long before McDonald's existed. In the more rural areas I lived in it was common to grow fruit and vegetables as well.

Okay, maybe the Maritimes is something of an exception then? And really only for seafood?

You know what I'm talking about, though, which is European or Asian villages with specialty dishes passed down over generations that are freely available and inexpensive that tourists and locals get at the restaurants and street stalls. We don't have that here.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

You really are not finding "authentic" ethnic food anywhere outside the region it is from.

That's not true. Some ethnic cuisines travel well, and if there is enough of a diaspora then there will be a demand for the good stuff.

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Even then, it is not one recipe. My mother is Ukrainian/Russian decent. The boat her parents came on, their kids, and my mother and her siblings are all still close. Get them all to make Borscht. If you take 10 of them, you will get 10 recipes. Now, get their mothers together and have them make it. Lets say there are 10 of them, you will still get 10 different recipes.

You can't make this blanket statement about all ethnic cuisines. Conservative food cultures, particularly in East Asia but also in Italy and France, are very picky about how traditional dishes are made and aren't happy if you don't rigorously adhere to the conventional standards for ingredients and preparation.

There aren't many different ways, say, for making kung pao chicken. Rather, everyone in that restaurant ordering it is expecting it to taste "right," and aren't interested in innovation. My impression is that Asian cuisines contain such a mammoth degree of variation within them that there's simply not a lot of room to be creative, as the interval between "this" dish and "that" dish is tiny enough that, instead of making "this" dish a bit different when you make changes to it, you simply end up making it taste more like "that" dish.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by rousseau

You know what I'm talking about, though, which is European or Asian villages with specialty dishes passed down over generations that are freely available and inexpensive that tourists and locals get at the restaurants and street stalls. We don't have that here.

Because, most of our towns and cities go back maybe 5-8 generations at best. With an agricultural sector that was largely export based. None of that means you can't have good local fare in rural restaurants, featuring fresh, local ingredients. But outside of a handful of pockets discussed here, that's pretty rare.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by rousseau

That's not true. Some ethnic cuisines travel well, and if there is enough of a diaspora then there will be a demand for the good stuff.


You can't make this blanket statement about all ethnic cuisines. Conservative food cultures, particularly in East Asia but also in Italy and France, are very picky about how traditional dishes are made and aren't happy if you don't rigorously adhere to the conventional standards for ingredients and preparation.

There aren't many different ways, say, for making kung pao chicken. Rather, everyone in that restaurant ordering it is expecting it to taste "right," and aren't interested in innovation. My impression is that Asian cuisines contain such a mammoth degree of variation within them that there's simply not a lot of room to be creative, as the interval between "this" dish and "that" dish is tiny enough that, instead of making "this" dish a bit different when you make changes to it, you simply end up making it taste more like "that" dish.

A friend of mine worked in China. Pick a Chinese dish. And even in the same city, you will find it done many ways. No different than a burger in Canada/USA.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

A friend of mine worked in China. Pick a Chinese dish. And even in the same city, you will find it done many ways. No different than a burger in Canada/USA.

Nope, not true. There will be slight variations between restaurants, of course, and people will favour one over the other because of those variations, but there's isn't much leeway in how the dishes are prepared. The emphasis is on doing the dish the best way possible so that it lives up to the standard people expect, not in trying to be innovative and making little changes to them.

It's a totally different mentality.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Nope, not true. There will be slight variations between restaurants, of course, and people will favour one over the other because of those variations, but there's isn't much leeway in how the dishes are prepared. The emphasis is on doing the dish the best way possible so that it lives up to the standard people expect, not in trying to be innovative and making little changes to them.

It's a totally different mentality.

So, my friend is a liar?

The dish is no different than a hamburger. Yes, it starts with the basics, but then each cook/chef makes it their own.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, my friend is a liar?

The dish is no different than a hamburger. Yes, it starts with the basics, but then each cook/chef makes it their own.

But in the end you still up with what would be recognized as a hamburger. That's the point. If you give me an open faced deconstructed Salisbury steak and tell me that is a hamburger, I'm going to think your restaurant is shit and you don't know what a burger is.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

But in the end you still up with what would be recognized as a hamburger. That's the point. If you give me an open faced deconstructed Salisbury steak and tell me that is a hamburger, I'm going to think your restaurant is shit and you don't know what a burger is.

Are you a Michelin Chef?

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Are you a Michelin Chef?

Better. I'm a paying customer.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Better. I'm a paying customer.

OK Karen.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Okay, maybe the Maritimes is something of an exception then? And really only for seafood?

You know what I'm talking about, though, which is European or Asian villages with specialty dishes passed down over generations that are freely available and inexpensive that tourists and locals get at the restaurants and street stalls. We don't have that here.

Donairs, lobster rolls, deep fried Brothers pepperoni, and garlic fingers.

The Maritimes don't have an ancient food culture. Then again, there's tons of Atlantic regional cooking.

Halifax seaport market, lots of local fruit and vegetables,and prepared regional stuff, not just seafood:

Source

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

So, my friend is a liar?

The dish is no different than a hamburger. Yes, it starts with the basics, but then each cook/chef makes it their own.

That is not how Chinese food works. Chinese cooks at street stalls and little hole-in-the-wall restaurants don't "make it their own," but rather, try to get it as right as possible according to the commonly accepted standard.

A common criticism a Chinese diner will make about a dish (privately to friends, afterward) is that it doesn't taste right. If you suggest that the cook was being innovative, or doing it his own way, they'll respond with "but that's not how kung pao chicken is supposed to taste."

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by rousseau

That is not how Chinese food works. Chinese cooks at street stalls and little hole-in-the-wall restaurants don't "make it their own," but rather, try to get it as right as possible according to the commonly accepted standard.

A common criticism a Chinese diner will make about a dish (privately to friends, afterward) is that it doesn't taste right. If you suggest that the cook was being innovative, or doing it his own way, they'll respond with "but that's not how kung pao chicken is supposed to taste."

Most of what we like in North America that is Chinese food is actually not from China. It is a product of the immigrants making a living here buy opening a restaurant.

[rousseau]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Most of what we like in North America that is Chinese food is actually not from China. It is a product of the immigrants making a living here buy opening a restaurant.

Yeah, that's not exactly a news flash. And it has nothing to do with your contention that all ethnic food features widely varied interpretations of individual dishes, something that may or may not be true when it comes to Ukrainian grandmothers, but is definitely not the case with the cuisines of Asia.

Or places like Italy. France. And even Mexico. There's practically no variation on the Mexico City classic al pastor taco regardless of where you have it, as the ingredients giving it its distinctive taste don't change: stringy pork, pineapple, raw onion, cilantro, salsa and lime in a flour taco. The ones I've had in Toronto, Mexico City and even Waterloo (The Cactus) all tasted the same.

Actually, Canadianized Chinese food all tastes the same too, when you come to think of it. The chicken balls in goopy sweet'n'sour sauce you get here in Stratford tastes the same as what you get in any of a hundred small southern Ontario towns, not to mention Winnipeg, several places in Saskatchewan where I've had it, and I'm going to guess pretty much everywhere else in Canada.

There's a template. You follow it.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

OK Karen.

I don't think you know memes as well as you think you do.

[Truenorth00]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Most of what we like in North America that is Chinese food is actually not from China. It is a product of the immigrants making a living here buy opening a restaurant.

Sure. And a lot of it tastes pretty bland after you've grown up in a bigger city eating something that tastes better. A tough sell when half the country lives in the 6 largest metros.

It's interesting that instead of upping their game, the small towners keep insisting on serving some mediocre fare. And I find that surprising because I think Canadians are actually very adventurous with food. I have a friend whose mom describes arriving in London in the 70s and not being able to find spices. Now Loblaws in smaller towns sells microwavable butter chicken. But somehow, I don't find the restaurants will have kept up with this evolution of tastes in many of these places. Maybe the clientele don't want anything different. Or maybe the restaurants have enough of a captive audience they can't be bothered.

Which brings me back to the start of this original tangent. Our small towns aren't even attempting to be the best versions of themselves. They are all aiming to be a mini and sterilized version of Mississauga.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by CityTech

I didn't mean the cuisine was created in Toronto; I meant that the use of the term "Hakka food" to describe it is unique to Toronto. As I said:

I always thought this too. Without getting bogged down in the details, I always thought Hakka in Toronto was a fairly significant (local) departure from Hakka anywhere in Asia.

[Antigonish]

Originally Posted by rousseau

Okay, maybe the Maritimes is something of an exception then? And really only for seafood?

You know what I'm talking about, though, which is European or Asian villages with specialty dishes passed down over generations that are freely available and inexpensive that tourists and locals get at the restaurants and street stalls. We don't have that here.

The Maritime situation in some ways come down to generations of resourcefulness. In most cases there is not major resource or other industries propping up the job market so most people need to be entrepreneurial and consumers need to be conscious in where they spend their money. Like Someone123, I never really noticed it growing up nor really appreciated it until I spent time away from home. Every time I'm back I make sure I only eat local or shop local (i.e. farmers markets, local butchers). Sure there are chain/corporate options but its nothing like I've experienced living in Alberta or Saskatchewan (especially Alberta).

Originally Posted by someone123

Donairs, lobster rolls, deep fried Brothers pepperoni, and garlic fingers.

The Maritimes don't have an ancient food culture. Then again, there's tons of Atlantic regional cooking.

Halifax seaport market, lots of local fruit and vegetables,and prepared regional stuff, not just seafood:

Source

The emphasis on food =/= culture is unironically low-brow. Culture is extremely nuanced but in our busy lives or how we can express things in 140 characters or less in our contemporary society people dumb things down to the lowest common denominator. Culture runs much deeper:
https://imgur.com/a/U0V65AX

After living in about half the regions in Canada (and visiting everywhere else extensively) I realize that living in a community that allows you to know all your neighbours and form social bonds, a place where you can leave your door unlocked with no worries, a place that values their elders/family bonds, supporting local entrepreneurs, a place where entertainment is self provided rather than expected to be provided... man I could go on and on. I understand that might not be the most popular opinion on a site like this but I can assure you that an overwhelming chunk of people in the under 35 crowd feel the same way; far more than even 5 years ago.

[ssiguy]

Guys this is a planning thread not the Food Network..........let's get back on topic.

There are many ways that shrinking/stagnating cities can become more liveable and vibrant as they do so and, besides the initial political will and proper planning, it all gets back to taxation. Taxes are a great way to shape our urban environment but that does not mean we need more {or less} of them but rather need to relocate where they are being spent and raised.

Anyone wanting to live in the non already urbanised sections of a shrinking/stag city have to know ahead of time that it is going to cost them dearly. They should be taxed at a disproportionately high level and yet receive no city services except for essential ones like police, fire etc. Redirect those taxes to lowering tax rates/subsidising infill housing.No new transit/libraries/ community centres and ESPECIALLY no new schools within 20 km of any school that is suffering from enrollment decline. Tripling or more any development fees for non-infill housing. The taxes they pay will go to services needed in already existing neighbourhoods and especially downtown/inner city ones.

It also means raising taxes especially on current existing and proposed commercial development not only on square footage and land value but also HEAVY extra taxes on EACH parking spot they provide but no new services like transit. Again, any businesses that do build will be paying far higher taxes but getting no benefit from them. Those new taxes would be reallocated to existing and downtown communities. Those astronomical parking taxes would be used to subsidize the transit system and/or providing free parking throughout the downtown. They could also use these new taxes to reduce the current tax levels of downtown businesses and even residential units.

[theman23]

Is this like a make belief game of Sim City that we’re playing here? Also, why do you want to tax parking spots “astronomically” to subsidize free parking downtown?

If there’s one thing that actually MAY change after covid 19, it’s peoples willingness to be crammed into public transit. I don’t see much of an appetite for anything that would make car ownership more difficult.