Transit Fantasies

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

I'm not so supportive of the extension of - among other lines - the expo line down Hastings. That is just making an already long, long line unnecessarily longer and creating a lot of complications in terms of frequency or whatever. I honestly wouldn't expect someone at the eastern end of Hastings to ride this line all the way into Surrey, via downtown, either; more likely they would just take a 130 down to the M-Line or Expo Line and go from there. Thus making the "ride thru" potential rather useless. For the same reason, I stick to the 410 from 22nd St Station going from Surrey - Richmond rather than go through downtown. There's quite a lot of redundancy created, and quite a lot of money wasted that could be put towards projects that benefit even more people.

Having to get to playland/PNE via downtown? It really doesn't look good on the map, once you do look. Even if you do get a one seat ride to the PNE, the trip is 2-3x longer than it should be. A lot of people will not actually go through downtown and instead get of at 29th Ave and take the 16 bus north to the PNE grounds. More people would rather deal with the highway.

Though I understand that forcing people into downtown for that transfer is a benefit to downtown/outward development, this really can't be done all the time. We may end up creating a line on which certain movements are rather infeasible and perhaps even unused, and even be inconvenicing more users. It's sort of like the situation in Paris as previously mentioned.

My view on a Hastings rapid transit line is that it should be a separate line that proceeds east along Hastings, then south along Willingdon connecting Metrotown. PNE, a major regional centre, is at the dead centre of the line and easily accessible from both directions. Population and development along the Hastings portion is served with connection either into downtown or to another major centre to the southeast. BCIT will have the option of a one seat ride into either downtown or Metrotown. You are also giving a third transfer option for Evergreen Line users to get into downtown in the Brentwood Town Ctr vicinity.

This idea gets even better; such a line can be extended even further westward to serve and relieve the very busy east-west 49th avenue corridor. There is so much demand and so many important destinations both on the way and even outside of the line area that can be served.

Why do you think certain cities that have constructed bypasses, ring roads, or other such infrastructure that go around the city core (whether closer or farther), that actually work really really well? You can't actually bring everyone through the city core, because 1. not everyone is actually going there, 2. there may be more of these people on a certain line, than people we actually convenience by creating a direct downtown link, and 3. you are creating a very crowded and much less easily manageable downtown core.

For similar reasons I'm not entirely agreeing with an extension of the M-Line past VCC-Clark and back into downtown Vancouver. There's quite a lot of redundancy created, and quite a lot of money wasted that could be put towards projects that benefit even more people. Do we really need such a line to go directly into downtown anyway? [Last comment overruled]

Not to mention the huge trouble of constructing Skytrain (underground i assume) along Main ST. This is Chinatown, folks. The short term impact would be so much bigger and so much worse than the construction of the Canada Line on Cambie, unless we use a much more expensive and deep TBM.

If linking VCC-Clark with Main Street via a separate connection has to be so necessary, perhaps a smaller people mover type connection such as a monorail or suspended monorail would work? I don't really find any huge need to prioritize a new $300m Skytrain connection, esp. when the money could be put into other more useful things.

I don't think anyone mentioned this being a priority over other projects. In fact, I think Logan and I would agree this is probably one of the last links that would be needed in the system, and only if the Expo Line and Canada Line are so busy they can't handle transfers from the Evergreen Line. This connector is more of a backup plan that might be required if the appropriate conditions arise. So I think it would be wise to plan it as a possibility when designing the Broadway-Line extension towards UBC. Downtown is a busy place, and funneling 2 lines worth of people through a single point might be too much to handle.

I also don't see the logistical problem with extending the Expo Line. Are you worried the trains will get tired? The trains are automated and many already run non-stop during the operating day. When they get to the end of the line, they turn around and start running right away (they don't need coffee breaks). If the line was longer, the trains would spend the exact same amount of time running as they do now, thus each train would run the same total distance in a day if the lines were 20km or 200km. There would be no increase in wear and tear if the trains were longer. Heck, the Central Line on the London Underground is over 70km long and is one of the busiest in their system. The long length only increases the lines efficiencies, not causes problems.

And the trains would go through downtown, not so someone from the PNE could have a one seat ride to King George (that's a ridiculous idea), but it is so they CAN have a one seat ride from the PNE to Burrard, Granville or Stadium without having to make a transfer. Or so that people from the Expo line could ride further into Gastown instead of walking from Waterfront or Stadium. It is also more efficient to have trains continue straight through downtown than short turn them, and turning them around takes much longer than a simple stop.

And you really have to stop focusing on special venues as the only reason people ride transit. The reason for extending Skytrain down Hastings isn't so people can ride to the PNE; that's a special occasion that would boost ridership during the month it takes place, but not be the driving force behind building it. The REAL reason for a Hastings line is because people LIVE THERE. It is also an area ripe for gentrification and densification, which is already taking place along Hastings in Burnaby. The 135 is an incredibly busy bus, not because people go to Hastings Park, but because workers downtown live out there.

And with Regard to the PNE, not only people from the 'burbs go there, but all your ridership patterns seem to be based on you getting to the PNE or where you want to go, not other people's travel patterns. You really have to stop doing that. You know, there are other travel patterns that don't involve people leaving or entering Surrey. The 410 might be good for you to get to Richmond, but it doesn't make sense for someone at Edmonds or Joyce; going through downtown for them is much faster than taking a crosstown bus. You really have to think about other people's problems and situation and not be so self centered. And the 410 probably only works for you depending on where you are going. If you are going to the Richmond Center for example, it takes about just as much time to take Skytrain into downtown and transfer to the Canada Line as it does to ride the 410, when you consider how much time you lose transferring from Skytrain, wait for bus, then take bus. So, its not good for everyone from Surrey going to Richmond.

A Hastings line would get people to Hastings from Downtown and elsewhere (for example, transferring to a Hastings line at Waterfront would be a single transfer for people from Richmond to get to Hastings Park). But again, I reiterate, the main point of a Hastings line isn't to get people to the PNE, its to get people who live along Hastings to work downtown and encourage further densification in an area pretty close to the downtown core. And by having it as an extension of the Expo line, riders could ride in from Burnaby straight to the CBD at Burrard or Granville.

If you are going to have a future Hastings line as seperate from Expo line, you may as well make it light rail. Then you could use Hastings as a trunk line and have it branch off at streets like Main, Commercial, Nanaimo, Renfrew, and Willingdon while continuing on to SFU. That would replace many of the very crowded and busy East Van lines with High Capacity streetcar while providing a lot of capacity along Hastings. If you are not going to take advantage of a transferless ride into the CBD, then may as well take advantage of what LRT can offer in this situation instead.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

I realise this is transit fantasies, but sometimes making changes to get a one-seat ride into downtown doesn't make much sense.

City of Vancouver is proposing a streetcar system - demonstrated during the Olympics - that has the additional benefit of connecting to stations of all three SkyTrain lines.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

The yellow line is the streetcar line that the City wants to build to connect downtown with the Olympic Village & Granville Island.

The blue line is my extension of the Streetcar line to VCC-Clark.

These proposed streetcar lines would then have connections to the Canada Line at Olympic Station; to the Millennium Line at VCC-Clark; to the Expo and Millennium lines at Main St station; to the Canada, Expo and Millennium lines at Waterfront station.


Most commuters using the Millennium line might find it easier to transfer to the empty Streetcar at VCC-Clark (where it starts its journey) instead of fighting to get on an already-full train at Broadway-Commercial to get downtown.


Having the Streetcar available as an alternative to get downtown would be quite handy when the Expo line between Waterfront and Commercial gets shut down (as has happened several times in the last year or so). It may not have the capacity that a SkyTrain has, but it does have more capacity than a hastily-arranged Bus Shuttle when SkyTrain is gummed up.

I think it depends on what gets built in the False Creek Flats, but sending the streetcar line down Main Street and meet the Broadway line at Main might make more sense. Main is a busy corridor, and the #3, with articulated trollies, is already at capacity much of the day. Extending the streetcar down Main street would kill 2 birds with one stone: increase capacity on busy Main and offer a more central transfer point, that people from Vancouver West can take advantage of to get to Gastown/Chinatown.

Originally Posted by logan5

How is it a redundant connection if it relieves pressure at an already crowded Broadway Station and Expo Line? And how much capacity do you think Broadway needs? A 3 minute headway along Broadway would give a capacity of over 10 000 pph. The Canada line has a capacity of 8000 pph while serving both Central Broadway and a much busier Downtown Vancouver.

The densities around M/EG line are low compared to the E Line and the C Line, so the M Line needs the drawing power of the whole Metro Core in order to realize its capacity.

Plus you don't need every other train to go into downtown. You could have have a lower frequency for trains entering downtown than you do for trains continuing on Broadway and still handle the probable demand. With multiple transfer points available, you don't have to assume that everyone arriving on Millennium line bound for downtown will want to take the connector, thus it doesn't need a really high frequency, just high enough to relieve pressure off the Expo Line. Traffic volumes leaving Commercial will probably be mostly Broadway/UBC bound (being mostly transfers from Expo Line) so most of the trains would be UBC bound too.

Originally Posted by Zassk

Ideally, after M-line is extended, everyone west of Commercial and some of the people from east of Commercial will all use Canada Line to get downtown.

There are known issues and costs associated with increasing the capacity of the Comerical-Broadway transfer point. The transfer point at Broadway-City Hall is yet to be constructed, so it can be built for high volumes from the start, and no doubt cheaper than retro-fitting Commercial-Broadway. A better transfer could encourage more riders to use Cambie to get downtown, even if they pass through Commercial to get there.

We are under-utilizing the second set of tracks into downtown, and until we maximize their usage, it seems pointless to add a third set. C-Line just needs trains added, it's not a hard problem to solve. Certainly nothing like extending platforms on Expo Line or building another track into downtown. I would expect that any project to extend M-line will include the cost of more C-line trains in its budget.

People will take the fastest way to get somewhere. If a Evergreen rider's destination is closer to Burrard or Stadium Station, they will more likely try to transfer at Commercial and cram into a full train rather than walk from VCC or Waterfront on the Canada Line. But if their destination is in Yaletown or near VCC or Waterfront, they will probably transfer at City Hall; not because it is less crowded, but because it better serves their purpose (and it will serve the purpose of a large number of riders).

If the Broadway line extends all the way to UBC, that is a lot of potential riders that now have a faster way into Downtown. Taking buses from most points of Vancouver Westside to Broadway, then taking the Broadway line to Canada Line will be fast and convenient. That combined with increasing population in Vancouver along the Canada Line and in Richmond might suck up a majority of capacity increases in the future. While adding trains to the C-Line will handle capacity for years to come, even with transfers from the Broadway line, another high capacity access point may be required. And the CBD really only has 1 way to expand (including the Broadway portion) and that is to the East. Having extra capacity around the east end might better serve our future needs, not just the ones we have now.

[trofirhen]

... not as cool as having a direct ride from the NE sector to downtown ... but ...
why not a change of train at VCC? Yes, It's theoretically better to have nonstop trains to downtown from all served destinations, but this would - as several members astutely point out - totally mess up the scheduling and train frequencies for the entire system.

So, why not a line directly between VCC (or wherever it is) and downtown. Yes, a spur, excuse me.
Unfortunate to have to change trains, but if Canada line is too inconvenient this might be an option.
The frequency of the downtown spur would be adjusted according the density of passenger traffic, independent of the rest of the system.
Hopefully the Platforms to Vancouver would be rain-proof, and adjoin conveniently the exisiting platforms at VCC Clark.

This may seem like overkill at the moment, but the future is yet to see. Canada Line may be able to handle the added passenger load, or it may not (if and when the M Line goes to Cambie)

This is to be seen, of course.

[logan5]

... not as cool as having a direct ride from the NE sector to downtown ... but ...
why not a change of train at VCC? Yes, It's theoretically better to have nonstop trains to downtown from all served destinations, but this would - as several members astutely point out - totally mess up the scheduling and train frequencies for the entire system.

1. 2.

3. 4.

The scheduling is fine and the frequencies are fine.

Line 1 would have 1 train every 6 minutes going from Coquitlam to Central Broadway.

Line 2 would have 1 train every 6 minutes going from Waterfront, loop around as it does now, and go to Central Broadway.

Line 3 would have 1 train every 6 minutes going from Waterfront to Surrey.

Line 4, my proposed line created by adding 2.7 km of track, would have 2 trains every 6 minutes going from Coquitlam, through downtown and out to Surrey. There would be an underground station at Main and Hastings and a future elevated station at the St Pauls Hospital site. A 1 seat marathon ride from Coquitlam to Surrey if you really loved Skytrain.

If you superimpose all 4 lines you get 90 second headways on the main trunk M Line and E Line. You get a train every 2 minutes (average) serving Surrey; a train every 3 minutes serving Central Broadway... and so on. Everything is in sync. The first 3 routes will be a reality in 10 years or so, the 4th route is my 300 million dollar "fantasy". So it's not so much more complicated than what translink will have in 10 years.

And you could extend line 2 and 3 down Hastings if the need were there and everything still balances out.

Overcrowding at Broadway and the lower capacity (even with 90 second headways and 50m trains) City Hall Station Station will happen eventually, maybe sooner than anticipated. And if you look at diagram 1 you can see the low population base that the Evergreen Line and the M Line have to draw from, so I believe the capacity is there to provide a future Downtown relief line.

[deasine]

Your fourth option will also be one of the most confusing systems ever made in the world. Effectively, at Commercial-Broadway, all four platforms will essentially be the same line, but all using different routes. If people don't know you can take a Millennium Line train to Metrotown from downtown, what makes you think people will understand that?

[logan5]

Line 2 does the same thing and this line is a reality. I think a better system once all these extensions are built, regardless of fantasy Line 4, might be to colour code each line. If you colour coded Lines 1 - 3, which will be a reality in 10 years, and Line 4 you would have interlined routes, just like you see in a lot of major cities. I think that might be easier to understand for tourists or new residents.

[trofirhen]

At Gamla Stan station in Stockholm, nearly all the lines converge as they would at commercial in the scenario of Line 4.

All on the same platform, they come through. A platform indicator panel lights up the train's destination (and thus routing).

Things can be made simpler with a little ingenuity.

Interesting, Logan 5, and probably feasible, too.

[huenthar]

my fantasy for adding downtown capacity is a short extension of the expo line: after reaching waterfront, it runs back, branches off to the right/north before the curve to burrard station, has a couple stations downtown (maybe Robson/Jervis and Davie/Denman), tunnels under false creek, and stations at arbutus & cornwall (kits beach), 4th ave, and Broadway and Arbutus - which would become another transit node, with the streecar going east along false creek and south to Kerrisdale, and a connection with the UBC line. Super quick transit conections in that direction, plus service to dense areas and the underserved west end.

[xd_1771]

A further extension of the Expo Line does not, as I have mentioned, make too much sense for me. There will be some through traffic, but I don't believe there will be enough to make it worth it. It will also require that trains run the maximum (Expo Line) frequency right away, rather than be adjusted for the corridor - which means more [new] trains will have to be used and at more cost. In the future with further extensions from this line's terminus, it will also end up complicating the map. There are many destinations on this corridor and related corridors that are of regional importance, so a Skytrain is definitely what is needed. Trains will also need to start running even earlier in the morning from the terminus of this, having to reach Waterfront at the same time it does now when the first train is out.

There is another good solution if service from a Hastings Line to other stations in downtown (apart from Waterfront) is a must; trains can continue to the currently unused 3rd platform at Stadium Station. It serves a good compromise perhaps. I just don't see a through Expo Line being worth it at all though, I doubt there will be much traffic from the Hastings corridor continuing to other stations on the Expo past there.

The PNE was an example. As I happen to now be a frequent traveller to and from and down the Hastings corridor, I am perfectly aware that there are many residential, commercial and industrial properties for this line to serve on a local scale. That doesn't mean that a line will not be successful on a regional scale. Destinations/starting points like the PNE, the Pacific Coliseum, Hastings Racetrack, SFU, and even BCIT on Willingdon have to be considered as important places regionally.

Perhaps LRT may be viable if we were only serving the residents of Hastings; that is not the case. Both local and regional movements will have to be served. I don't see how LRT would viably add to the Hastings corridor either, for there is really nothing the LRT would add over the 135 express bus route and other routes. Over a frequent articulated bus (and one among many other Hastings bus routes) running one route among many on the Hastings corridor, there would not be a large addition in capacity. There is NO room for a separate LRT row on Hastings; removing a traffic lane would cause mayhem for everybody along the route, including buses that may continue to run along Hastings after LRT. If LRT is to share existing traffic lanes, then it is worse than the existing bus service, for it removes the important flexibility of being able to switch lanes if there's a left turn vehicle blocking the way or if someone has stopped in the middle lane to back into a parking space. To add LRT platforms in many areas (i.e. Hastings & Nanaimo), which would have to be done in the middle of the road (the one place on Hastings you must not place LRT, AT ALL, is on the curbside parking lane), would require widening of the entire ROW, cutting into the street-front retail. Honestly, if LRT was viable for Hastings or many other corridors, then the City of Vancouver would have introduced LRT a long time ago. However, there is no way an introduction of LRT can result in a balance of moving the train itself, and both traffic and other bus transit on the route.

going through downtown for them [Joyce & Edmonds travellers] is much faster than taking a crosstown bus.

Joyce Station is unfortunately not very well located for to-Richmond transit travel. This is due to the lack of a proper east-west crosstown rapid transit corridor to serve this traffic. As I have mentioned, an extension of Hastings-Willingdon skytrain to tackle the busiest crosstown corridor (49th Avenue) will allow this to happen and convenience, save the time of and serve many people, including those from Joyce. Edmonds on the other hand is one station away from 22nd St, in case you have forgotten; it'll be faster for travellers from there to use the 410 into Richmond.

I am not sure if you have ever taken the route I prefer but I can definitely tell you that your assumption that going through downtown Vancouver from Surrey to get into Richmond is just as fast is quite wrong. Coming into Richmond through downtown Vancouver (using Aberdeen Stn as reference point) requires at least 1 hour and 15-30 minutes. The 410 comes every 12-14 minutes. A transfer at Waterfront is also required, remember; Canada Line train to Richmond is every 8-12 minutes. Wait times are not very different. Distance on the through-downtown route, however, is much longer. Taking the 410 via 22nd station to the Aberdeen area, with little walking time, usually takes me a shorter 45 minutes to 1 hour from Surrey Central. Translink's own trip planner even recommends the 410 for Surrey Central to Richmond Centre travel. It also recommends a transfer to the 301 for unknown reason, but you can stay on the 410 and get a one seat ride from 22nd St station to Richmond Ctr, and with less walking involved. I don't know to what extent you will believe me, but I have actually ridden this route, too many times, and I have also taken the route through downtown Vancouver before. The 410 is much better.

my fantasy for adding downtown capacity is a short extension of the expo line: after reaching waterfront, it runs back, branches off to the right/north before the curve to burrard station, has a couple stations downtown (maybe Robson/Jervis and Davie/Denman), tunnels under false creek, and stations at arbutus & cornwall (kits beach), 4th ave, and Broadway and Arbutus - which would become another transit node, with the streecar going east along false creek and south to Kerrisdale, and a connection with the UBC line. Super quick transit conections in that direction, plus service to dense areas and the underserved west end.

I actually rather like this idea. It could help by forming yet another link between the Evergreen/M-Line east-west corridor and downtown, and have good ridership due to linking the majority of the metro Vancouver region with Kits beach, many museums, Broadway @ Arbutus, and the western Robson corridor. There are many viable options that could come by building Skytrain here; it could form a viable Expo extension, or it could also be expanded down Arbutus to form an effective loop line integrating with a Hastings-Willingdon-49th line.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by huenthar

my fantasy for adding downtown capacity is a short extension of the expo line: after reaching waterfront, it runs back, branches off to the right/north before the curve to burrard station, has a couple stations downtown (maybe Robson/Jervis and Davie/Denman), tunnels under false creek, and stations at arbutus & cornwall (kits beach), 4th ave, and Broadway and Arbutus - which would become another transit node, with the streecar going east along false creek and south to Kerrisdale, and a connection with the UBC line. Super quick transit conections in that direction, plus service to dense areas and the underserved west end.

I think that's a great idea. Head something like that in mind myself.

[huenthar]

Originally Posted by huenthar

my fantasy for adding downtown capacity is a short extension of the expo line: after reaching waterfront, it runs back, branches off to the right/north before the curve to burrard station, has a couple stations downtown (maybe Robson/Jervis and Davie/Denman), tunnels under false creek, and stations at arbutus & cornwall (kits beach), 4th ave, and Broadway and Arbutus - which would become another transit node, with the streecar going east along false creek and south to Kerrisdale, and a connection with the UBC line. Super quick transit conections in that direction, plus service to dense areas and the underserved west end.

Here's a rough map. Never done this before.
http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?msa=0&...a928fe25ce61a8

The obvious difficulty is the terrain, Jervis is at the top of a big hill, and there's another big hill up to fourth ave. The routing would need to be tweaked. But I think it'd be a really functional addition to the network.

Some random unrelated things:

-yes, I hate running the UBC line down GNW. Tunnel into the steep hillside of the park and take it to Fraser instead - I'd rather serve a few thousand residents than a few hundred students. (Ideally VCC-Clark shouldn't have been built, should have gone underground after Commercial, but oh well)

-Given the above, the #22 really needs to have a proper stop connection at VCC-Clark station. Don't know if it should turn in, or have a bay built in above the station in that little unused rectangle (which would make a great skate park locale, under the East Van sign).

-the streetcar could run down to VCC-Clark, as suggested earlier, to serve the new Emily Carr, etc. at GNW - it's going to go that way for a long-term OMC anyways...

-Also, if the UBC line runs to Fraser, then the #8 could link up Main Street, GNW, and VCC-Clark on its way to Broadway/Fraser instead of its current route. The 3 and 19 should be enough to connect Expo and UBC lines over that little section of Main Street. That makes the 84 completely unnecessary and axeable (I think it's alone in serving GNW right now); and, along with the UBC line for east-west express and the western Expo Line extension I'm proposing, the 44 would become unnecessary as well. Put those busses in Surrey! That means the 4 would probably become articulated to handle the extra load. Hopefully all long distance east-west and downtown-west riders will stick to the UBC line and Expo extension.

-Don't know how to efficiently tie in Vanier Park into the streetcar route, kind of weird to have it as a separate little branch...

-I emailed TransLink to see about terminating the c21/c23 on the little triangle west of Denman by the beach, instead of its current terminus, but now I think it would be nice to run that route all the way to Second Beach

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by huenthar

Here's a rough map. Never done this before.
http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?msa=0&...a928fe25ce61a8

Hey! You ripped that pink line off of my map!

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?msid=2...58895,0.307274

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

I actually rather like this idea. It could help by forming yet another link between the Evergreen/M-Line east-west corridor and downtown, and have good ridership due to linking the majority of the metro Vancouver region with Kits beach, many museums, Broadway @ Arbutus, and the western Robson corridor. There are many viable options that could come by building Skytrain here; it could form a viable Expo extension, or it could also be expanded down Arbutus to form an effective loop line integrating with a Hastings-Willingdon-49th line.

I totally agree. This "loop" just might serve as a nexus in the rail transit of the future Vancouver.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by huenthar

Here's a rough map. Never done this before.
http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?msa=0&...a928fe25ce61a8

The obvious difficulty is the terrain, Jervis is at the top of a big hill, and there's another big hill up to fourth ave. The routing would need to be tweaked. But I think it'd be a really functional addition to the network.

Some random unrelated things:

-yes, I hate running the UBC line down GNW. Tunnel into the steep hillside of the park and take it to Fraser instead - I'd rather serve a few thousand residents than a few hundred students. (Ideally VCC-Clark shouldn't have been built, should have gone underground after Commercial, but oh well)

-Given the above, the #22 really needs to have a proper stop connection at VCC-Clark station. Don't know if it should turn in, or have a bay built in above the station in that little unused rectangle (which would make a great skate park locale, under the East Van sign).

-the streetcar could run down to VCC-Clark, as suggested earlier, to serve the new Emily Carr, etc. at GNW - it's going to go that way for a long-term OMC anyways...

-Also, if the UBC line runs to Fraser, then the #8 could link up Main Street, GNW, and VCC-Clark on its way to Broadway/Fraser instead of its current route. The 3 and 19 should be enough to connect Expo and UBC lines over that little section of Main Street. That makes the 84 completely unnecessary and axeable (I think it's alone in serving GNW right now); and, along with the UBC line for east-west express and the western Expo Line extension I'm proposing, the 44 would become unnecessary as well. Put those busses in Surrey! That means the 4 would probably become articulated to handle the extra load. Hopefully all long distance east-west and downtown-west riders will stick to the UBC line and Expo extension.

-Don't know how to efficiently tie in Vanier Park into the streetcar route, kind of weird to have it as a separate little branch...

-I emailed TransLink to see about terminating the c21/c23 on the little triangle west of Denman by the beach, instead of its current terminus, but now I think it would be nice to run that route all the way to Second Beach

I had an idea like this a while ago. But instead of it being an Expo Line extension, make it a Canada Line Extension.

I believe the original plans for the Canada Line, before it was scaled down so Lavalin could make a proposal on budget, included a station at the Convention Center West Building. This would have been amazing as it would directly tie in the Convention Center, the Sea Plane terminal, Cruise Ship Terminal, and several Hotels directly to YVR.

So what I would love to see is the Canada Line extended from Waterfront to the Convention Center. Then from there you can tunnel under the CBD and have a station serving a large area of office towers, hotels and Condos. Instead of your Robson station, I would put it over on Georgia at Bute (maybe in the basement of Vancouver's Turn ). After that continue through the West End, under English Bay and Kits and meet the Broadway line at Arbutus.

The benefit of using the Canada Line is that you have now tied together all the yuppiest places in the city together on one line: Kits, West End and Yaletown. It's a sure fire hit. I know that sounds sarcastic, but I'm actually pretty serious. I think there would be a lot of demand for travel from Kits and the West End into the CBD and Yaletown.

This way Expo Line extensions can go Eastward, the direction the track is currently pointing. It could be extended through just the DTES providing more downtown coverage for the future gentrification of the area, or down Hastings as another line into downtown, or even a little ways east then turn north under Burrard inlet to the North Shore (or both).

WRT the streetcar, the easiest sollution to your problem is to build a second line. Start a line at Yaletown Station, continue down Pacific Blvd, and join up with the other line at Quebec (which is actually in the Downtown Streetcar plan). From there branch off at Granville Island and continue to Vanier Park. It now becomes an issue of how to interline them. Do you have trains from Waterfront go to Vanier, or trains from Yaletown? Stanley Park to Arbutus would be a decent commuter line, bringing people from Kerrisdale into the Broadway Corridor and Chinatown and Gastown (and a long but lazy one seat ride into the CBD). But Stanley Park to Vanier Park would be one hell of a tourist line and really fuel a lot of commercial activity around the downtown core.

[LeftCoaster]

What do you guys think of this for an overall metro skytrain system several decades down the road?

I think my Vancouver lines make a lot of sense, I really like my "Bay Line" but I'd love some feedback, especially for the suburban areas which I am not as familiar with.

Everything is grade separated except the Arbutus and Surrey LRT lines which would run at grade for most of their lengths except for certain areas where development or geography dictate that they be buried.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Here's the link to the google map in case you want to zoom for more detail:

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?msid=2...27972,0.617294

[Canadian Mind]

Looks good, but I have a couple changes in mind. Sorry if I pick it apart too much. I don't see the Canada Line going under Burrard Inlet, and I don't know how much ridership to Burnaby your Bay Line would develop from the North Shore.

I think modifications to be made would be an LRT line following generally the same route as your Bay Line until you get to the 2nd Narrows crossing, which would act as a feeder for a WCE line that has 2-3 stops along the north shore, then crosses by the 2nd Narrows, and speeds west to downtown.

From there, instead of continuing east to SFU (maybe have that as a "spur" of hastings line, or an extended leg of Expo), have the Hastings Line turn south and follow the same path as the Bay Line where they cross.

From there, have the Hastings Line turn up where you have the Arbutus LRT, and at kits point have it pass over/under False Creek/English Bay to where the western terminus of your current Hastings Line is to form a loop.

As for the Arbutus LRT, have that turn east where I suggested the Hastings Line turn north on Arbutus, connecting it with the streetcar, or just have the streetcar head east on W41 to meet up with the Hastings Skytrain/Arbutus LRT transfer station.

[trofirhen]

Regarding first the BAY LINE, it may not seem to make sense at first, but in fact (IMHO) would serve "segments" of the city - people going crosstown East-West, riders going to South Burnaby-North Burnaby, people going over the bridge to North Van, although the extension as far as Park Royal in West Van may be a bit overambitious.

THE CANADA LINE cannot go under the harbour, as C.M. said. It's too shallow, it seems, and it would have to make a sharp L - turn to go sideways to gain depth.

However .... the EXPO line at Waterfront already points east, and could continue eastward and gain the necessary depth (geology permitting)

Looking at the map, it also seem that further East it is slightly narrower than where you have placed the undersea CANADA LINE. (In either case, going up Lonsdale to 15th is pretty ambitious. That's a steep slope calling for super - deep stations.)

Also, the EXPO line could in fact split, one branch going under to North Van, the other up along Hastings.

The KNIGHT LINE is a great idea in theory, I think, but there isn't the density along Knight to support a line at present, and will probably not for several decades, until it gets rezoned with density nodes along it to support and justify ridership. It's most duplexes and single houses now, unless it has changed over the past 6 years.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

THE CANADA LINE cannot go under the harbour, as C.M. said. It's too shallow, it seems, and it would have to make a sharp L - turn to go sideways to gain depth.

In Transit Fantasy World, where we have unlimited funds, the problem of the Canada Line getting across Burrard Inlet could be solved by using a submerged tunnel.

[bardak]

Originally Posted by logan5

In Transit Fantasy World, where we have unlimited funds, the problem of the Canada Line getting across Burrard Inlet could be solved by using a submerged tunnel.

Or you could rebuild the stretch leading up to Waterfront

[Millennium2002]

As much as Vancouver is dominant (and yes I live in the city), I find it a little disturbing that the eastern cities don't get improved rapid transit service. Surely the demand for such services may not exist at this point and will take time to build; however to neglect them rather completely from the picture as your diagram seems to suggest will only cause more infighting in the regional council as each city tries to get the most of their share of transit funding and improvements.

And please... why is it that the old, dead horse that is the tunnel under the Burrard Inlet always gets poked to no end? (shrug)