White Working Class population by city/metro

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I assume most of the inner city Appalachian enclaves could be characterized as white slum areas.

West Side of Cincy, Southwest Detroit (though mostly Mexican nowadays), South Side of Flint. Probably every Ohio city of some size has an Appalachian legacy enclave.

FWIW, Pittsburgh has no Appalachian enclaves in the sense of people who migrated from elsewhere. Of course, it's an "indigenous" portion of the Appalachians, so you could argue that the continual flow of people out of the rural hinterlands into the city in the early 20th century played a role. But most of the working-class white urban population is decidedly "white ethnic" in origin (mostly German and Eastern European).

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I think the number is skewed by Middle Easterners identifying as white on census forms. I would think that city of Detroit's "colloquially white" population is much more educated than almost any other major city. If Trump hadn't killed the MENA category on the census forms this would probably be clearer.

IMHO the MENA category should be an "ancestry" option like Latino, which is added in addition to the race you pick rather than just a race.

Plenty of MENA individuals are functionally speaking white. There is no substantial difference in terms of skin tone between most Turks, Syrians, and Lebanese and Greeks or Italians.

[Steely Dan]

Canaryville on the southside is probably the last best example of an old-school white ethnic (irish) working class neighborhood that still remains overwhelmingly WWC in the urban core of chicago, but it is pretty tiny.

it's still intact enough that i don't think i'd call it a "white slum" the same way as those pittsburgh examples, but maybe that's just splitting hairs. however you see it, it is now very much a hold-out anachronism from a very different era of the southside.

typical side street in canaryville: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8117...7i16384!8i8192





unsurprisingly, this neighborhood was by far the most trumpy during the last election in the urban core of the city (ie. not including the cop & fireman neighborhoods out on the fringes of the bungalow belt on the extreme NW and SW sides).

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by eschaton

IMHO the MENA category should be an "ancestry" option like Latino, which is added in addition to the race you pick rather than just a race.

Plenty of MENA individuals are functionally speaking white. There is no substantial difference in terms of skin tone between most Turks, Syrians, and Lebanese and Greeks or Italians.

I can't think of a good reason to categorize someone whose lineage is Afghani in the same bucket as someone whose background is Dutch.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I think the number is skewed by Middle Easterners identifying as white on census forms. I would think that city of Detroit's "colloquially white" population is much more educated than almost any other major city. If Trump hadn't killed the MENA category on the census forms this would probably be clearer.

There are still elderly working class whites on Detroit's fringes, though. Go to the far east side around Balduck Park/St. Johns Hospital, or the far west side near Redford and Dearborn Heights. Or Warrendale, or Southwest Detroit.

But yeah, no doubt many are Arab Detroiters.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by lio45

Nah, as llamaorama said, the best hypothesis for the wealth is inheriting the fully-paid-off-a-long-time-ago inner Paris real estate where that bakery has operated for generations.

What if the baker was simply a hard-working entrepreneur? I believe that's what they are.

They have a little number of employees in the bakery I'm talking about and I suspect they have several shops in town yet.

They also specialize in various pastry, not just bakery. Their business is clean and fresh quality. That's probably how they make money. Customers like their thing.

I know what heirs look like and how they act in this town. They don't get up at 4 in the morning to make bread. So that's not really the type or style of the baker. To me, he more seems like the growing working-class type and just a hard worker doing a good job in his trade.
He might also be good at convincing banks that his business is reliable, so he can get loans from them rather comfortably.

To the effect that fast social mobility is still something possible, even here in Paris.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Crawford

There are still elderly working class whites on Detroit's fringes, though. Go to the far east side around Balduck Park/St. Johns Hospital, or the far west side near Redford and Dearborn Heights. Or Warrendale, or Southwest Detroit.

But yeah, no doubt many are Arab Detroiters.

Those are/were the last working class white population centers but I'm a little skeptical that those areas have even a third of Detroit's "colloquially white" population today. Brightmoor was probably the Detroit's biggest "Appalachian white" neighborhood in the 1990s, but it's almost thoroughly abandoned today. Warrendale only fared better than Brightmoor because of replacement by middle easterners. The largest mosque in the U.S. is located on the border of Warrendale.

My gut says that majority of Detroit's "white" population today probably lives in the yuppie enclaves (Midtown, Corktown, East English Village), where they are probably the majority. There are also a lot of "whites" in the historically upper middle class neighborhoods (Boston-Edison, Indian Village, Palmer Woods, Sherwood Forest), where they are not a majority but a visible minority.

[Crawford]

I think you're somewhat overestimating the white population in the affluent enclaves. Unless something radically changed recently, places like Boston Edison and Palmer Woods are blacker than the city as a whole. The Census bears this out.

I could see Boston Edison getting whiter, because it's close to downtown. And given that it was 90%+ black, doesn't take many white households to shift the numbers. But in Northwest Detroit, doesn't make sense.

Are the 2020 tract-level data available? I haven't scoured the Census page in years.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by eschaton

IMHO the MENA category should be an "ancestry" option like Latino, which is added in addition to the race you pick rather than just a race.

Plenty of MENA individuals are functionally speaking white. There is no substantial difference in terms of skin tone between most Turks, Syrians, and Lebanese and Greeks or Italians.

The most elegant solution for gathering the "race" answers would be to use a color chart in the census form, which you'd put next to your skin, and check the box that matches the color of your skin. Just like the famous Peter Griffin Okay/Not Okay skin tone card meme (except without the negative assumptions).

No questions about ancestry, no questions about which culture you feel like you belong to, just check the right color:
(The "ancestry" question would be a separate one. White Cubans and Black Cubans would both count as "Latino" there, for example.)





(Obviously there wouldn't need to be that many available shades, I just couldn't find anything better than that in a quick search.)

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I think you're somewhat overestimating the white population in the affluent enclaves. Unless something radically changed recently, places like Boston Edison and Palmer Woods are blacker than the city as a whole. The Census bears this out.

I could see Boston Edison getting whiter, because it's close to downtown. And given that it was 90%+ black, doesn't take many white households to shift the numbers. But in Northwest Detroit, doesn't make sense.

Are the 2020 tract-level data available? I haven't scoured the Census page in years.

Palmer Woods and Sherwood Forest are 20% white, so they are definitely more white than typical Detroit neighborhoods. Most Detroit census tracts are +95% black. There are only a handful of census tracts in the city more white than the two that make up those neighborhoods. Even the upper end neighborhoods in far northwest Detroit like Grandmont-Rosedale, which is where I'd expect to see the least mixing, skew more white than typical, although still less white than the city as a whole. The most affluent tract in North Rosedale Park is 11% white, but most of the tracts come in close to 10%.

https://mtgis-portal.geo.census.gov/...ed2b2fd7ff6eb7

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I can't think of a good reason to categorize someone whose lineage is Afghani in the same bucket as someone whose background is Dutch.

They both have a majority of their DNA from West Eurasian ancestry?

Lots of Afghans basically look white, TBH...moreso than in Iran even though it's closer to Europe. Tons of them have light eyes, hair, and even skin.









Edit: Of course there are other Afghans who wouldn't look out of place in India, Mongolia, or anywhere in between the three. However, MENA just aren't a "race." They're highly mixed people, and a lot of them will pass for white within the U.S. definition in almost every country.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

Canaryville on the southside is probably the last best example of an old-school white ethnic (irish) working class neighborhood that still remains overwhelmingly WWC in the urban core of chicago, but it is pretty tiny.

it's still intact enough that i don't think i'd call it a "white slum" the same way as those pittsburgh examples, but maybe that's just splitting hairs. however you see, it is now very much a hold-out anachronism from a very different era of the southside.

typical side street in canaryville: https://www.google.com/maps/@41.8117...7i16384!8i8192




unsurprisingly, this neighborhood was by far the most trumpy during the last election in the urban core of the city (ie. not including the cop & fireman neighborhoods out on the fringes of the bungalow belt on the extreme NW and SW sides).

Pittsburgh's working-class white enclaves are actually not all that Trumpy. There are a handful of precincts Trump won by a few percent within city limits. The most Trumpy area is this little section of New Homestead, which is quite suburban. Even has its own McMansion area. I think this is a cop enclave. There are a lot of neighborhoods on the fringes of the city which have a lot of fire/police and the like, even though residency requirements for city jobs have been relaxed in recent years. Regardless, it was only about Trump +15%.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Pittsburgh's working-class white enclaves are actually not all that Trumpy. There are a handful of precincts Trump won by a few percent within city limits. The most Trumpy area is this little section of New Homestead, which is quite suburban. Even has its own McMansion area. I think this is a cop enclave. There are a lot of neighborhoods on the fringes of the city which have a lot of fire/police and the like, even though residency requirements for city jobs have been relaxed in recent years. Regardless, it was only about Trump +15%.

speaking of struggling folks, there is a legendary 1970s story told by harvey pekar of him driving wally shawn, who was in cleveland for a mutual relative's wedding, around for a tour of cleveland. and the very idea of those two in a car together charms me to no end, i would have loved to have been a fly on the windshield lol. anyway, they get to around slavic village, which was much more lively at the time, and wally goes, *wally voice* "hmm, well there is something you don't see everyday...a white ghetto."

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by eschaton

They both have a majority of their DNA from West Eurasian ancestry?

Lots of Afghans basically look white, TBH...moreso than in Iran even though it's closer to Europe. Tons of them have light eyes, hair, and even skin.

We really don't give a damn what they look like. You have to be a tortured racist English-speaker to even care about their skin or eye colors.

They've been living under the rules of contemporary Islamic tyranny. That's their fucking problem.
Not mine. I don't want to called guilty for their poverty. I'm fed up with France charged with all the poverty in the world, while we've done our best for decades.

Others haven't done the third of all efforts we've done for the last 40 years, and they call us losers!
Fuck you all, huh. It is going to be brutal when we get pissed and angry over here...

[mrnyc]

^ oh so that's why the french put the algerians and other immigrants in orange prison jumpers and had them clean up the dog poop around paris in the 1980s. because only the english care about race. right. got it. derp.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by mousquet

We really don't give a damn what they look like. You have to be a tortured racist English-speaker to even care about their skin or eye colors.

They've been living under the rules of contemporary Islamic tyranny. That's their fucking problem.
Not mine. I don't want to called guilty for their poverty. I'm fed up with France charged with all the poverty in the world, while we've done our best for decades.

Others haven't done the third of all efforts we've done for the last 40 years, and they call us losers!
Fuck you all, huh. It is going to be brutal when we get pissed and angry over here...

Heu... ça va, le "cousin"?

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Pittsburgh's working-class white enclaves are actually not all that Trumpy. There are a handful of precincts Trump won by a few percent within city limits. The most Trumpy area is this little section of New Homestead, which is quite suburban. Even has its own McMansion area. I think this is a cop enclave. There are a lot of neighborhoods on the fringes of the city which have a lot of fire/police and the like, even though residency requirements for city jobs have been relaxed in recent years. Regardless, it was only about Trump +15%.

here's a tongue-in-cheek map i made of cook county's 2020 election results.





that little pink spec labelled "daley descendants" is canaryville.

it's pretty out of step with its surroundings.

the only other places in the city where precincts went for trump are all out on the very fringes of the city - the orthodox jews up in west ridge, and then the very heavy "cop and firemen" neighborhoods on the far NW side (jeff/norwood park), W side (garfield ridge), and SW side (mount greenwood).

generally speaking for chicago (like in much of the rest of the nation), if you wanna find trump supporters, just look for white people without college degrees.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

generally speaking for chicago (like in much of the rest of the nation), if you wanna find trump supporters, just look for white people without college degrees.

yep, the snobby elites and the wingnuts of the dem party have done their best to totally lose their working class base. the next prez election is going to be a shiteshow.

we should probably just stick with the whiteyvilles here and skip the politics though.

[mousquet]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Heu... ça va, le "cousin"?

Ça va, je suis en forme. T'inquiètes.

J'ai eu le Covid. Récemment, j'ai même eu une infection dans mes yeux qui m'a foutu de la conjonctivite.
Mes yeux sont injectés de sang... Ça me foutait le trouille quand je me regardais dans la glace. Je n'avais pas eu un truc pareil depuis l'enfance.
Je ne sais absolument pas comment j'ai chopé un truc pareil. Je pense que j'ai dû me toucher les yeux alors qu'il y avait quelque-chose de mauvais sur mes mains.
L'ophtalmo m'a donné un antibiotique. C'est pas grave. Ça n'agresse pas la cornée des yeux, mais ça me trouble encore la vue à cause des sécrétions de la bactérie ou du virus.

Je ne suis pas habitué aux problèmes de santé, alors autant te dire que ça m'a sérieusement gonflé.
Mais ça va. C'est en train de guérir.

Je ne suis pas fan des antibiotiques. Je trouve que les médecins en prescrivent trop parce que leurs patients le leur demandent. Mais en l'occurrence, celui-là m'est utile.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Edit: Of course there are other Afghans who wouldn't look out of place in India, Mongolia, or anywhere in between the three. However, MENA just aren't a "race." They're highly mixed people, and a lot of them will pass for white within the U.S. definition in almost every country.

That's because 'white' is a loose term for Caucasian which basically means anyone with European, North African, Middle Eastern, South Asian and Central Asian (the Caucuses) decent.