Polo Park Expansion

[armorand93]

Polo Park has expanded enough!!! And the Bay would make a lovely mall

[Winnipegger@Heart]

The former Gimbels dept. store in Manhattan is a pretty cool mall.

[pollswpg]

Originally Posted by 1ajs

no shindico owns the old arena site and its slated for more big box stores

I believe the arena site is actually owned by Cadillac Fairview (or the parent company Ontrea.) I think shindico is just handling their leasing...could be wrong though. I know for sure the Corus building is owned by Cadillac...and if I'm not mistaken, that building was supposed to be part of the "Polo North" development that the arena site is now part of.

If I have my facts straight, Polo North could be considered expansion of polo park, of sorts.

[Biff]

^^^ You are correct. Thoughts were given to expanding the mall but they decided to redevelop the Chorus Building and create the plan they are building now.

[h0twired]

Originally Posted by armorand93

Polo Park has expanded enough!!! And the Bay would make a lovely mall

Another mall is not in the cards for downtown Winnipeg. Have we not already learned with Portage Place that "if you build it they will come" is a fallacy?

Sure they Bay would make a beautiful mall. It would also make a beautiful location for a Holt Renfrew or a Macy's, however downtown Winnipeg does not yet have enough residents and employees to make sure a place viable. We no longer live in the 50s where people would take the bus downtown on the weekends to go shopping so downtown retail relies solely on those that live and work in the immediate area. Even in Calgary (where downtown populations triple that of Winnipeg) the Eaton Centre mall (now The Core) only got redeveloped this past year after sitting for over a decade as a relatively dead mall and they still need to offer free VALET parking on the weekends to get people to visit.

At the end of the day the retailers hold the cards. The city and planning departments can help encourage development in one direction or another, but in reality they have almost zero power. Retailers know where they want to set up shop and if they can't they will pass our city by.

I personally see Polo Park expanding before there are any major retail expansions downtown. This will be driven by the retailers looking to invest in Winnipeg.

The way I picture the expansion is along St. James between The Bay and Sears. Two full levels retail with multiple levels of underground parking. This will allow for the potential of a new anchor and a "loop" within the mall for dozens of new retail spots.

[SKYSTHELIMIT]

Originally Posted by h0twired

Another mall is not in the cards for downtown Winnipeg. Have we not already learned with Portage Place that "if you build it they will come" is a fallacy?

Sure they Bay would make a beautiful mall. It would also make a beautiful location for a Holt Renfrew or a Macy's, however downtown Winnipeg does not yet have enough residents and employees to make sure a place viable. We no longer live in the 50s where people would take the bus downtown on the weekends to go shopping so downtown retail relies solely on those that live and work in the immediate area. Even in Calgary (where downtown populations triple that of Winnipeg) the Eaton Centre mall (now The Core) only got redeveloped this past year after sitting for over a decade as a relatively dead mall and they still need to offer free VALET parking on the weekends to get people to visit.

At the end of the day the retailers hold the cards. The city and planning departments can help encourage development in one direction or another, but in reality they have almost zero power. Retailers know where they want to set up shop and if they can't they will pass our city by.

I personally see Polo Park expanding before there are any major retail expansions downtown. This will be driven by the retailers looking to invest in Winnipeg.

The way I picture the expansion is along St. James between The Bay and Sears. Two full levels retail with multiple levels of underground parking. This will allow for the potential of a new anchor and a "loop" within the mall for dozens of new retail spots.

Speaking to the point about the Core in Calagary. I was recently there(Calgary) for work meetings and extended my stay to visit with friends. I moved to the Hotel Arts in the Beltline to be central for 3 nights and for each night of stay I was given a $75 gift card for the mall. So there is still quite a push to put bodies through it. I took advantage and went down on the Saturday and for post Christmas it was fairly busy and on a side note that glass roof is incredible.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by SKYSTHELIMIT

Speaking to the point about the Core in Calagary. I was recently there(Calgary) for work meetings and extended my stay to visit with friends. I moved to the Hotel Arts in the Beltline to be central for 3 nights and for each night of stay I was given a $75 gift card for the mall. So there is still quite a push to put bodies through it. I took advantage and went down on the Saturday and for post Christmas it was fairly busy and on a side note that glass roof is incredible.

I also stayed at the Hotel Arts on a recent trip to Calgary - definitely one of the nicest hotels I've stayed at in the country. Hopefully the Alt has a similar feel to it when it's finished, as there's really nothing too comparable to that in Winnipeg yet...

[pollswpg]

Originally Posted by h0twired

Another mall is not in the cards for downtown Winnipeg. Have we not already learned with Portage Place that "if you build it they will come" is a fallacy?

......................

I personally see Polo Park expanding before there are any major retail expansions downtown. This will be driven by the retailers looking to invest in Winnipeg.

The way I picture the expansion is along St. James between The Bay and Sears. Two full levels retail with multiple levels of underground parking. This will allow for the potential of a new anchor and a "loop" within the mall for dozens of new retail spots.

Plus we already have 3 malls downtown...all of which could still use some filling up. Although, in a perfect world I wish the The Bay could remain a big name retail store too.

Unfortuntely I've heard some unoffical rumblings about just putting more surface tenants on the parking lots at Polo Park, liks St. Vital has done. And without significant underground parking, that's the last thing Polo Park needs. The big advantage Polo Park has over St. Vital is the availability of parking.

Hopefully they're just rumours though.

[armorand93]

Originally Posted by h0twired

Another mall is not in the cards for downtown Winnipeg. Have we not already learned with Portage Place that "if you build it they will come" is a fallacy?

Sure they Bay would make a beautiful mall. It would also make a beautiful location for a Holt Renfrew or a Macy's, however downtown Winnipeg does not yet have enough residents and employees to make sure a place viable. We no longer live in the 50s where people would take the bus downtown on the weekends to go shopping so downtown retail relies solely on those that live and work in the immediate area. Even in Calgary (where downtown populations triple that of Winnipeg) the Eaton Centre mall (now The Core) only got redeveloped this past year after sitting for over a decade as a relatively dead mall and they still need to offer free VALET parking on the weekends to get people to visit.

At the end of the day the retailers hold the cards. The city and planning departments can help encourage development in one direction or another, but in reality they have almost zero power. Retailers know where they want to set up shop and if they can't they will pass our city by.

I personally see Polo Park expanding before there are any major retail expansions downtown. This will be driven by the retailers looking to invest in Winnipeg.

The way I picture the expansion is along St. James between The Bay and Sears. Two full levels retail with multiple levels of underground parking. This will allow for the potential of a new anchor and a "loop" within the mall for dozens of new retail spots.

I could see the retail, but UNDERGROUND parking? Isn't it cheaper to build it elevated? By that, we might as well turn Polo Parks basement into the underground city, which TBH is feasible!

North - the Bay
Central - Bowling Alley
South - SportsChek/Offices
West - Urban Planet

[h0twired]

Originally Posted by armorand93

I could see the retail, but UNDERGROUND parking? Isn't it cheaper to build it elevated? By that, we might as well turn Polo Parks basement into the underground city, which TBH is feasible!

Of course underground parking is more expensive, but you can't exactly create more land between St. James and Empress.

Cadillac-Fairview put in several underground levels of parking in Chinook Calgary a couple of year ago so there is no reason why they couldn't do it for Polo Park.

[pollswpg]

Originally Posted by armorand93

I could see the retail, but UNDERGROUND parking? Isn't it cheaper to build it elevated? By that, we might as well turn Polo Parks basement into the underground city, which TBH is feasible!

North - the Bay
Central - Bowling Alley
South - SportsChek/Offices
West - Urban Planet

Not super feasible...the majority of Polo Park's basement is already maintenance areas storage for tenants that they'd have to find a new home for.

[armorand93]

Originally Posted by h0twired

Of course underground parking is more expensive, but you can't exactly create more land between St. James and Empress.

Cadillac-Fairview put in several underground levels of parking in Chinook Calgary a couple of year ago so there is no reason why they couldn't do it for Polo Park.

I've noticed the elevated parking, but have never heard about underground for Chinook. But yeah, you'd have to I guess. That or pull some kind of Winnipeg Transit campaign to turn 200 cars into 200-600 riders. Extra service?

[armorand93]

Originally Posted by pollswpg

Not super feasible...the majority of Polo Park's basement is already maintenance areas storage for tenants that they'd have to find a new home for.

Yay, someones using my bolding of quotations! And how much of it? I have NO idea how much space is below the mall

[pollswpg]

Originally Posted by armorand93

I've noticed the elevated parking, but have never heard about underground for Chinook. But yeah, you'd have to I guess. That or pull some kind of Winnipeg Transit campaign to turn 200 cars into 200-600 riders. Extra service?

What I also like is one of the Cadillac Fairview malls (Fairview mall in Toronto, I think) has a busloop that goes right into the mall. It was kind of a TTC BRT station...really cool.

I was there in the middle of summer, but I was just imagining how nice it would have been in the middle of Winnipeg winter. It would be cool for Polo Park to have something like that, but realistically it wouldn't happen until their next major expansion....which realistically probably isn't until like 2025 - 2030.

[armorand93]

Originally Posted by pollswpg

What I also like is one of the Cadillac Fairview malls (Fairview mall in Toronto, I think) has a busloop that goes right into the mall. It was kind of a TTC BRT station...really cool.

I was there in the middle of summer, but I was just imagining how nice it would have been in the middle of Winnipeg winter. It would be cool for Polo Park to have something like that, but realistically it wouldn't happen until their next major expansion....which realistically probably isn't until like 2025 - 2030.

Going on hotwired's underground parking idea, maybe they can build an underground right-of-way for the buse's and future LRT along with it! Preferrably right under the current Polo terminal for future BRT. Then build an underground entrance to Polo with possibly an few stores added.

- OR -

Going on the elevated idea, elevated BRT/LRT over the current terminal, elevated Polo entrance, added stores and possibly enclose the terminal itself

[h0twired]

Originally Posted by armorand93

I've noticed the elevated parking, but have never heard about underground for Chinook. But yeah, you'd have to I guess. That or pull some kind of Winnipeg Transit campaign to turn 200 cars into 200-600 riders. Extra service?

How much more transit service do you need to Polo Park?

It is probably the busiest transit hub in the city outside of downtown.

[chrisallard5454]

As nice as it would be. The problem isn't lack of service. It is that the mass majority of people will never take the bus to the mall. I only go to the mall via. bus because I don't have a car. It is one of the few places where a car would be 100% preferred over a bus for me.

[armorand93]

Originally Posted by h0twired

How much more transit service do you need to Polo Park?

It is probably the busiest transit hub in the city outside of downtown.

U of M is probably the busiest. 26,000 students, if I recall correctly.

And for me: take the 5 minutes, walk to 24, bus to polo, shop, walk to 24, bus and walk home. Not an hard concept. If its an major shopping trip, sure I'd take an car. But 1-2 bags can it onto someones lap on a bus, or under the seat...

Reason why I like more transit to Polo: Frees up the roads. St. James street is bad enough, and Empress is next

[h0twired]

Originally Posted by armorand93

U of M is probably the busiest. 26,000 students, if I recall correctly.

26,000 students attend the U of M. A small percentage take the bus.

That said, I was referring more to how many different routes converge at Polo Park and not just ridership numbers.

[armorand93]

Originally Posted by h0twired

26,000 students attend the U of M. A small percentage take the bus.

That said, I was referring more to how many different routes converge at Polo Park and not just ridership numbers.

11, 12, 20, 21, 22, 24, 25, 26, 66, 77, 78, 79 and 95.

That being said (excluding am/pm express services 22, 25 and 67), only 11 and 12 cover the west end. 26 covers my area of st james, rrc and logan. 20 covers academy. 24 covers st james, crestview and unicity. 21 covers portage avenue. 66 covers grant (occasionally). 77 is REALLY slow and it takes 45 minutes from the maples to polo. 78 fares a little better, but still slow. 79 covers charleswood, and 95 during peak covers river heights. yes the service is there, but how FAST is that service? if i was in whyte ridge and had the choice between an hours bus ride or an half-hour car ride to go to polo, i'd chose the car (if i can ever get one, that is). if you put in an faster service, people might actually take it and leave the car behind. kinda the idea behind the 22 or the SWRTC.

what i think they need: express service up north, down south and an advertisement blitz

EDIT: most of the people i know (i'm 18, they're 18-22) always bus to the U of M