Winnipeg | Portage and Main

[bomberjet]

We're going on about this again?

[rkspec]

Weren't they going to remove them anyways to make some repairs?

Is that still on the radar?

[cheswick]

Originally Posted by pspeid

Do a majority of Winnipeggers oppose opening P & M? Apparently they do-true.

Hate to pick nits here, but only 28% of eligible voters wanted to keep it closed. The vast majority didn't care enough to vote.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by Biff

I am on the Open side.

I use the intersection everyday. Live in the NE and travel to the SW for work.

It has been closed for 40+ years. The immediate area has seen some amazing developments and change in recent years.

The only legitimate negative is that it will add 30 to 90 seconds to someones commute.

What is the harm in opening it to see if any of the potential benefits that could be possible become a reality. If people are being mowed down and killed on a daily basis then close it again (a joke of course - if this were a fact then pedestrians should not be able to cross the streets anywhere). Lots change in 40+ years. What would a 1-2 year trial hurt.

The egoes of the people who claim that keeping the intersection closed is correct and has some sort of attached moral value. That said, this is my assessment of why nothing ever happens here in terms of normal urban evolution or upgrades. People don't want to change, ascribe some moral value to the stasis that we have been living in since 1920, and then cry foul anytime anything remotely forward thinking is implemented. Of course, once they've internalized the change, they no longer oppose it.

Obviously there is room for healthy debate on ideas and proposals, but often we need to step back and have the humility to realize that we may not be correct in doing things differently than every other place out there, and maybe, just maybe, the reason we are the only ones standing stubbornly in the breach is because we are simply attached to our stasis, and not because it is a good idea. Very rarely is it the case that we are right and everyone else is wrong.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by cheswick

Hate to pick nits here, but only 28% of eligible voters wanted to keep it closed. The vast majority didn't care enough to vote.

Good point, not nit-picky at all.

[pspeid]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Very rarely is it the case that we are right and everyone else is wrong.

I think some folks might cling to their original position at any cost simply to feel they have "defeated" the other person.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by pspeid

I think some folks might cling to their original position at any cost simply to feel they have "defeated" the other person.

Hence my call for having a bit of humility and perhaps open-mindedness to change.

[bomberjet]

Anecdotal. I was once again at P&M yesterday, at Hy's. And I thought to myself while looking out the window. Which way should I walk back. And then it hit me the damn barriers are in the way for me to go either west on Portage or south on Main. So to the underground..

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by pspeid

I've always been on the "open P & M" side, but I've tried to see if the "keep it closed" side had any valid arguments, and reduce the "demonizing" and sarcasm that tends to dominate the discussion.

As much as it seems people on this forum have tried to demonize me for not supporting the incomplete proposal to open Portage and Main, I have never been fully opposed to it.

Originally Posted by pspeid

0Would there be traffic chaos? Studies have been done that show there would be delays during peak traffic periods, sometimes in several minutes depending on the direction drivers are taking-likely true

The challenge is those "peak times" is basically around 6 am to 6 pm when there isn't an event on at Canada Life Centre and can push back to close to midnight when there is an event. Also Winnipeg Transit, who has to be considered a local authority on traffic, said opening the intersection would have a significant delay on their whole network requiring more busses and operators to offset.

Would a complete, city-wide rapid transit network solve those issues? Likely.

Would such a city-wide rapid transit network be in place for the previously proposed opening timeline? Not a chance.

Originally Posted by pspeid

Would there be hazards to pedestrians? I would think any time that pedestrians and auto traffic cross paths there will be an increase in danger of accident-likely true

True story, I have crosses Main just past the barriers and it isn't something that is overly fun to do. As I have said many times before the discussion on opening Portage and Main to pedestrians needs to look at the origin and destination of these would be pedestrians crossing there. It is hard to ignore that one block south, one block north and one block west of the intersection there are already at-grade pedestrian crossing. There is also extremely limited directly east-west pedestrian traffic outside of hotel guests. Also the limited undeveloped space between the east side of Main St and the CN line truly limits new development. So even if it was opened today there would be very few pedestrians.

And the terms of the hazard, another true story is I needed to cross Portage at Fort heading north. Having done it many times I know as a pedestrian I have right of way but I also know there is pretty much always traffic turning left from Fort onto Portage. I had my head on a swivel looking for cars wanting to cross into my space but someone staying at the Fairmont wanting to walk across Portage and Main isn't going to have that same level of insight. And sure enough as I was crossing Fort I saw a firetruck coming up the street. Not overly noteworthy but when I come back about 10 minutes later sure enough that truck was coming to attend to an accident scene at that very corner.

Originally Posted by pspeid

Do a majority of Winnipeggers oppose opening P & M? Apparently they do-true.

Actually I think you have have misread that vote. There is a small and highly vocal group that wants the intersection open, quite possibly as the stand to benefit financially such as property owner, people that will do renovations to the builds, architects, etc. There is an equally small group that opposes opening Portage and Main. Not sure who they are. Then the vast majority of the people fall into the indifferent camp that don't want the status quo to change if any taxpayer money is involved, and that would include needing the expand the Transit fleet to deal with traffic delays.

Originally Posted by pspeid

Traffic chaos-some people will find alternate routes/delays will only happen at the busiest times/ the delays are not that long-some fact, some speculation.

Already touched on this some but it is getting close to P&M being busy 24/7.

Originally Posted by pspeid

Safety-every intersection has the same dangers/there are more dangerous intersections in the city/ drivers and pedestrians have to be careful-hopeful speculation

The more lanes of traffic in an intersection the more dangerous it is for a pedestrian. The distance from the northeast corner to the first vehicle on the southwest corner lined up to make a conflicting left turn is fairly far and it is easy for that pedestrian to get missed. Worse the first couple of vehicles can likely make the turn without a conflict and by then the third vehicle could not even be aware a pedestrian is about to cross their intended path of travel.

Originally Posted by pspeid

Expense-the barriers have to be removed for underground repairs anyway- fact

Removing the barriers does not mean they need to be replaced with permanent barriers. Temporary concrete Jersey barriers could be put in place after the repairs while the other pre-conditions to a full opening a met, such as completing the city-wide rapid transit network and the inner ring road network.

Originally Posted by pspeid

Majority rules?-the majority only represents people who briefly pass through P & M/most people in the immediate area want P & M open-apparently fact

And that is where I strongly disagree with the open group. I have spent most of my working life in the shadows of Portage and Main. And I know lots of others in similar positions. I have literally walked all over downtown, the Exchange, to HSC, etc and its been extremely limited the number of times Portage and Main being closed was ever an issue where we would have intentionally crossed at that intersection instead of another at grade crossing.

Originally Posted by pspeid

Of these, the "cost" argument seems the most compelling, even overwhelming, in favour of the "open" side. The barriers will apparently have to be removed to make repairs below ground, and some will probably will have to stay down for the proposed BRT routes. There will be traffic delays/re-routing while the construction is going on, and this will most likely result in drivers and busses adopting alternate routes that a number will keep using after P & M is open.

On the cost side all I have ever seen from the open folks is we need to spend money, why spend more money building new barriers. They offer zero discussion on what should be done with the existing circus and what costs may be related to that.

Originally Posted by pspeid

I'd like to add one more thing to the "open" side-vision. An open P & M is a piece (yes just a piece, it's not a magic bullet) of what I hope will eventually become a walkable and hopefully fairly vibrant downtown; one with a strong residential base, safe streets and pleasing street-scapes.

As I covered earlier in my reply I literally was walking downtown in this area today. Even in the most utopian version of a future downtown Winnipeg nothing is going to change that we have -27 days like today where no one wants to be outside. That more than anything else is what keeps Winnipeg from having an a truly walkable downtown as it forces people to find alternatives to walking several blocks on the street in winter.

Originally Posted by pspeid

It confuses me that so many of the people opposed to opening P & M also seem to want to see the same thing. I don't understand how keeping P & M closed can do anything but contribute to the downtown conditions that so many of us bemoan in our posts. I would there isn't a contingent of people here who want to see the downtown fail, though sometimes it's difficult for me to come to any other conclusion.

For me it is more indifference to opening P&M and truly asking how it will make downtown better. The fact is we are talking about one block of downtown with about six buildings and minimal destination or origin traffic to the rest of downtown. Opening P&M will never change that.

[BKB]

Of course, Transit is going to argue they need more buses.
Very little will change for the driver or the transit user. Everyone will adapt.
Portage Avenue at Empress was done to two lanes in each direction (sometimes one) for almost two years. Traffic flowed with no issues.

[thebasketballgeek]

^Yea that’s one point not mentioned enough. This city in the summer is a mess of construction and closed lanes yet we’re still functioning. If Portage and Main was open to pedestrians than commuters who use it will adapt and adjust accordingly.

Personally for me it’s very simple. The cities most important intersection should be designed for the people of the city, not the cars of the city. Limiting the intersection for the benefit of 1 measly form of transportation will always hamper it from the true potential it has.

[Biff]

The 146 units at 138 Portage Ave E will hopefully kick start the sea of parking lots east of Main.

[EdwardTH]

Originally Posted by CoryB

As I covered earlier in my reply I literally was walking downtown in this area today. Even in the most utopian version of a future downtown Winnipeg nothing is going to change that we have -27 days like today where no one wants to be outside. That more than anything else is what keeps Winnipeg from having an a truly walkable downtown as it forces people to find alternatives to walking several blocks on the street in winter.

This is kind of a silly argument when there are only about 30 days per year when it gets that cold. What about the other 335 days? Shouldn't we plan around the averages rather than the extremes?

I've also never bought that the cold is an argument against walkability, quite the opposite. Walking through block after block of big open windswept parking lots beside 6 lanes of traffic makes it so much worse. The cold is the exact reason we should want things dense and closer together, which includes allowing as many crossings and connections as possible because nobody wants to walk an extra block around when its -30.

And either way if you have enough people in the area there will be foot traffic. I saw plenty of pedestrians crossing River & osborne today, like I do everyday, regardless of temperature.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by Biff

The 146 units at 138 Portage Ave E will hopefully kick start the sea of parking lots east of Main.

I hope that we get many more proposals soon. By the looks of that rendering that was teased, is a parking lot being eaten up by this one?

[thebasketballgeek]

Originally Posted by Biff

The 146 units at 138 Portage Ave E will hopefully kick start the sea of parking lots east of Main.

146 units eh. With that other development on Bannatyne the area east of Portage is reaching a nice critical mass.

Speaking of that area what happened with that 1 office building that was supposed to replace the massive McDermot Lot. Was it another covid casualty?

[Wpg_Guy]

City of Winnipeg to replace concrete barriers at Portage and Main as part of repairs, redesign

The City of Winnipeg plans to remove the concrete barricades from Portage and Main — and replace them with more aesthetically pleasing barriers to pedestrian traffic.

On Tuesday, the city plans to launch public consultations about new designs for the city's most famous intersection, which has been closed to pedestrian traffic since 1979.

City councillors were briefed about the plans on Friday. City council finance chair Jeff Browaty (North Kildonan) said they include the replacement of a leaky underground membrane and the reconstruction of the public spaces above ground.

…

[esquire]

^ About time. What's there now is hideous.

[WinCitySparky]

The fact they’re still dancing around actually opening it up like a real city with vision is still sad as fuck though

[bomberjet]

The door has cracked open.

[BAKGUY]

Originally Posted by esquire

^ About time. What's there now is hideous.

It has a Brutalist vibe. Very unwelcoming.Like Surroundings @ a Siberian Prison