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  #721  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2020, 12:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Steely Dan View Post

i don't know how things work work in detroit, but in chicago it is not at all uncommon for permits to be pulled in a piecemeal fashion for large projects - foundation permit, podium permit, tower permit.
He's literally making things up. The tower and the block are not being submitted to the city separately nor is there any "evidence" they have separately timed building permits. So it's a complete fabrication.
It's one project that shares the same underground garage. When it starts going above ground he'll come up with something else.

There is nothing gray about construction of hundreds of millions worth of drilling caissons. They've been doing extremely complex and expensive work down there, people forget that there used to be an utter behemoth of a building on the site with the old foundation left under it all.

Oh and BTW it's been revealed that Dan Gilbert is worth 30+ billion f*cking dollars and just made a billion+ more the other day, making him one of the top 40 richest people on earth. This is about as solid of a project you could get in a Midwest city from any developer.
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  #722  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2020, 4:38 PM
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Originally Posted by The North One View Post
He's literally making things up. The tower and the block are not being submitted to the city separately nor is there any "evidence" they have separately timed building permits. So it's a complete fabrication.
It's one project that shares the same underground garage. When it starts going above ground he'll come up with something else.

There is nothing gray about construction of hundreds of millions worth of drilling caissons. They've been doing extremely complex and expensive work down there, people forget that there used to be an utter behemoth of a building on the site with the old foundation left under it all.

Oh and BTW it's been revealed that Dan Gilbert is worth 30+ billion f*cking dollars and just made a billion+ more the other day, making him one of the top 40 richest people on earth. This is about as solid of a project you could get in a Midwest city from any developer.
"Underway" sounds like a gray area in this case, as I've said.

A developer's net worth isn't necessarily relevant. It rarely translates into a blank check for whatever they're doing.

They're serious about building something. But at minimum their entitlements are in question, and it seems far less firm or defined than usual for a tower that's underway.

Or maybe that's me being used to cities that have long permitting processes with transparency and tons of online documents along the way.
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  #723  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2020, 5:02 PM
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I don't think there is any question that the Hudson's tower is going up. But I think they are having trouble getting an agreement with a hotel operator, which is a major factor in the final design (and final height). They were supposed to announce the hotel operator by Memorial Day, and I still don't think they have done so. Obviously, the pandemic has had a major impact on the hospitality business, so that's not a huge surprise. Rocket's IPO might help move things along, though.
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  #724  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2020, 5:21 PM
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Sounds like it's NOT underway then.
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  #725  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2020, 6:02 PM
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^ The Hudson site is not really comparable to anything else you're trying to draw lines to.

Bedrock is not a typical developer, they have the resources and power to basically do whatever they want. Gilbert has been self financing this project (until whatever later financing they intend to do happens) and fills much of the space with his own businesses, so in this case his net worth and health of his companies is directly tied to how this project gets built.

They are still not near going above street level yet, still have tons of work on the garage and all that infrastructure underneath. I think they wanted to get started as soon as possible and knew foundation work and demolition was going to take years so they've been working on exact programming in the meanwhile which is pretty much finalized now. No point in constantly going back to the city for changes.

IDK how anybody could call it gray when there's literal ongoing work happening? Does this forum have a "gray" tag for it's developments? And if the tower is supposedly gray so is the office block portion. I can link you to the daily progress videos if you want.

Crawford said there was no "plans" that's obviously been proven wrong.
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  #726  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2020, 7:28 PM
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^ The Hudson site is not really comparable to anything else you're trying to draw lines to.

Bedrock is not a typical developer, they have the resources and power to basically do whatever they want. Gilbert has been self financing this project (until whatever later financing they intend to do happens) and fills much of the space with his own businesses, so in this case his net worth and health of his companies is directly tied to how this project gets built.

They are still not near going above street level yet, still have tons of work on the garage and all that infrastructure underneath. I think they wanted to get started as soon as possible and knew foundation work and demolition was going to take years so they've been working on exact programming in the meanwhile which is pretty much finalized now. No point in constantly going back to the city for changes.

IDK how anybody could call it gray when there's literal ongoing work happening? Does this forum have a "gray" tag for it's developments? And if the tower is supposedly gray so is the office block portion. I can link you to the daily progress videos if you want.

Crawford said there was no "plans" that's obviously been proven wrong.
It's gray from my perspective as a general contractor for towers. None of your arguments change anything.

It's possible to build the below-grade portion of a project without considering the eventual tower underway or even very clear...it's not even that unusual. For example, it's common to build the below-grade portion and then one wing of the future project, but leave the other above-grade building for later. That sounds plausible here, though it's probably not their hope.

No, Steely, a press release wouldn't change anything either.

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  #727  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2020, 8:01 PM
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Developers are very good at expressions of confidence that absolutely, their project is an A-one sure thing. That's a big part of their job, for obvious reasons like getting tenants interested.

And announcements tend to suggest progress.

But none of that means it's underway.
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  #728  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2020, 9:56 PM
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It's gray from my perspective as a general contractor for towers. None of your arguments change anything.
You don't know anything about the project, or process going on here, or the developer, or the contractors, or the city, or anything here. So I can't say what you said changes much either.
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  #729  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2020, 10:05 PM
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It's possible to build the below-grade portion of a project without considering the eventual tower underway or even very clear...
What does this have to do with Hudson site? A project that's had a very public and extensive planning process for the tower??

What's plausible here is irrelevant, because again, it's under construction, and your plausible ideas are nothing but speculation.
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  #730  
Old Posted Aug 8, 2020, 10:36 PM
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Sure, believe what you want. I'm just explaining the real world.
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  #731  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2020, 4:05 AM
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Steely I kinda wish you just deleted these posts because we dont want them here either.
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  #732  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2020, 4:21 AM
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I'm interested to see whether you have any good arguments to share! So far you have good reasons to be skeptical of my opinions, but not much to support your own.
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  #733  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2020, 7:34 PM
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
I'm interested to see whether you have any good arguments to share! So far you have good reasons to be skeptical of my opinions, but not much to support your own.
^^You are wrong. I personally know someone working on the project and I have not heard of any plans changing in terms of construction of the block AND the tower. If something did change they would be the first to know and luckily nothing has changed. Please stop with the false information.
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  #734  
Old Posted Aug 9, 2020, 8:15 PM
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The one constant about this project is change.What has been proposed has changed several times.We'll have to wait and see what happens.
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  #735  
Old Posted Aug 10, 2020, 4:47 PM
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Originally Posted by mhays View Post
It's gray from my perspective as a general contractor for towers. None of your arguments change anything.

It's possible to build the below-grade portion of a project without considering the eventual tower underway or even very clear...it's not even that unusual. For example, it's common to build the below-grade portion and then one wing of the future project, but leave the other above-grade building for later. That sounds plausible here, though it's probably not their hope.

No, Steely, a press release wouldn't change anything either.
The tower could have been finished years ago if that's all they wanted to do was build a tower. Bedrock could have done basic apartments and a boutique hotel but they're trying to go above and beyond and push the boundaries of what can be built in Detroit.

People compare this to Chicago or other hot cities, but in those places towers like this get built all the time so much so that the market is actually competitive. Detroit isn't like those markets. Dan Gilbert is the only one building any sizable project capable of upsetting the regional market.

As reported some years ago, the Hudson's site could top $3 per square foot for apartments when the greater downtown average is like $2 to $2.20. For office space, the Hudson's could command $35 to $40 per square foot when Detroit's current average for Class A space is $26 foot (even SE Michigan overall doesn't top $30). This is all on the backdrop of occupancy rates near 100% for both residential and office space (at least pre-COVID). So no question there's unsatisfied demand for space in Detroit but what's gray is whether the Hudson's site (plus Gilberts other planned projects) will oversupply the market with new construction.

Since Dan Gilbert has a near monopoly on downtown real estate, he has no incentive to finish the tower ASAP, but there's nothing that would force him to cancel the tower altogether. In fact finishing the tower too quickly could cannibalize his current success and cause rents to fall. It has nothing to do with permits or even the overall design. It's purely because Detroit is such an underdeveloped market dealing with a handful of big players.
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  #736  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2020, 5:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Bonsai Tree View Post
^^You are wrong. I personally know someone working on the project and I have not heard of any plans changing in terms of construction of the block AND the tower. If something did change they would be the first to know and luckily nothing has changed. Please stop with the false information.
When someone is on the inside of a project, they're the LAST people to say anything other than the party line. If I say anything about my company's projects (part of my job is press releases), it's with the owner's permission.

Maybe the project is "under construction" but it all sounds like a big gray area to me until there's evidence otherwise.
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  #737  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2020, 9:24 PM
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Why on earth wouldn't they just light money on fire then? Much easier.
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  #738  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2020, 9:34 PM
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Why on earth wouldn't they just light money on fire then? Much easier.
I think media folks from other cities don't really want this project to be successful because it might prove Detroit to be a city worth investing in. A stalled or cancelled project is more in line with what people think of Detroit.
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  #739  
Old Posted Aug 11, 2020, 10:19 PM
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I think media folks from other cities don't really want this project to be successful because it might prove Detroit to be a city worth investing in. A stalled or cancelled project is more in line with what people think of Detroit.
He just sounds insane, he knows nothing and the only "evidence" he has is that permits haven't been pulled yet when they aren't near going above street level at this moment? He knows more than the actual contractors with the plans?

dumb dumb dumb

I get being skeptical because nothing about this project is typical, but trying to domineer other people like this? How foolish.

And oh totally, people who hate the city are on this project like flies on dog sh*t. Crawford might need to check in at the nearest mental hospital whenever this tops out.
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  #740  
Old Posted Aug 12, 2020, 3:34 AM
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I'm rooting for this project. But reality intervenes. What started as a simple point about the semantics of "underway" (on another thread, which got moved here) has become a big argument because people are making it so.

But I'm down for it.

Why not light money on fire? Obviously, they want to build the project. They spent millions before breaking ground, and have apparently jumped the gun on the below-grade portion before the above-grade portion has permission to build what they think.

The contractor knows more than I do? Of course. But you don't know what they know. A contractor in this situation would make the best of things and keep their mouths shut.

No above-grade permits? IIRC, I pointed out a scenario where this is ok, and said it's not necessarily a sign of anything. But it's also very likely being delayed until their entitlements are in hand. Do you expect them to do detailed design while the basics are in question?

Hate the city? You're projecting. Skepticism about a project's current status isn't "hate."

I'm not media folk. I work for a general contractor who builds projects on this scale and my job includes media relations.

Anyone have an actual argument?
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