NEW YORK | Empire Station District | 9 Towers (18-20 msf)| FT | FLOORS

[NYguy]

The first new Vornado tower may now actually be Site 4, where the Duane Reade is now closing.







https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/13/n...n-station.html


By Matthew Haag and Stefanos Chen
April 13, 2023

.....Vornado executives have rushed in recent days to meet with state lawmakers in hopes of shoring up support.

Executives have stressed that the company’s delay in construction is temporary but have not specified a time frame, and said that they would prioritize the building of a residential tower, at West 33rd Street and Eighth Avenue, before an office.

Vornado owns several high-profile properties in the neighborhood, including the Penn 1 office tower, the former Hotel Pennsylvania and the Manhattan Mall.

.....In a letter to shareholders, Mr. Roth wrote on Friday that Vornado remained committed to its plans around Penn Station but warned that “we are approaching the eye of the economic storm.”

“There is no new debt available for office, so no buying, no selling, no new builds,” Mr. Roth added.

.....Before Vornado announced a pause, the state had said the last of the 10 towers would probably not be complete until 2044, possibly a decade after the reconstruction of Penn Station. The plan can only be annulled by the board of the Empire State Development, or by court order.

[mrnyc]

^ i wondered when vornado was going to flip to residential. thats fine at least it will get built — although for the love of pete i dk who would want to live right next to msg/penn on that perpetually hectic corner lol.

as for the penn plan b it looks great, kind of an ode to the calatrava oculus downtown almost, and also making msg glass all around is a very cool idea, but along with the mta i am also leary that it doesnt address the 7av penn entrance and herald square subway connection. i get they are trying to reign in costs though, so lets wait for the whole plan.

[mrnyc]

oh, and now this monkey wrench in the works lol …



Community Board votes to give Madison Square Garden three years to relocate

By Max Parrott
Posted on April 14, 2023


Manhattan Community Board 5 made its resolve clear on Thursday night: they want Madison Square Garden relocated to make way for a new Penn Station.

The board’s vote came in response to MSG’s application for a permit allowing the stadium to operate at its location above the crowded transit hub in perpetuity. The board nixed this plan, instead resolving to give the arena three years to relocate.


more:
https://www.amny.com/news/community-...s-to-relocate/

[Busy Bee]

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

^ i wondered when vornado was going to flip to residential. thats fine at least it will get built — although for the love of pete i dk who would want to live right next to msg/penn on that perpetually hectic corner lol.

as for the penn plan b it looks great, kind of an ode to the calatrava oculus downtown almost, and also making msg glass all around is a very cool idea, but along with the mta i am also leary that it doesnt address the 7av penn entrance and herald square subway connection. i get they are trying to reign in costs though, so lets wait for the whole plan.

While site 4 has long been planned as a residential tower, I've always thought it was an odd location. That corner is always very busy, even for New York. I hate that the Duane Reade closed (though there are about 50 more within a couple of blocks). I'm not sure when that restaurant will close, though Vornado previously had some interim plans for that site. But, if there are no plans to start the office in the near future, I see no reason why they couldn't start here. But we all know Vornado flip flops a lot.


But looking back through the analysis, even though they can't predict a "certain" timeframe of development, it is anticipated that it could take over a couple of decades to get these towers built. Site 4, however, is one of the sites that could be completed sooner (along with 15 Penn).











While this doesn't mean anything, a non-office tower on Site 4 could be above 900 ft...

Originally Posted by mrnyc

oh, and now this monkey wrench in the works lol …



Community Board votes to give Madison Square Garden three years to relocate

By Max Parrott
Posted on April 14, 2023

Well, the community board doesn't have any say in the matter. Their standard opinion has always been for the Garden to move. It's the City that decides if MSG moves or not, and they're currently in the process of "rewriting" the permit to include upgrades to the plazas that surround it. As wacky as the City can sometimes be, they're not as stupid as some of these people who make up the "community" boards are. Thankfully.

[MAC123]

What would be stupid is allowing MSG to sit on top of Penn permanently

[mrnyc]

hmm, like i had thought the analysis above sez site 4 was to be a commercial building, or a mixed use commercial-residential building, but now it seems it will be fully residential.

any way they go with it that one will be easiest to build first. although again, good luck to the tenants living or working around that hectic, busy area.

also, i just realized site 1 is going to take out the flix busses lot.

[Ahoi]

Executives have stressed that the company’s delay in construction is temporary but have not specified a time frame, and said that they would prioritize the building of a residential tower, at West 33rd Street and Eighth Avenue, before an office.

Per: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/13/n...n-station.html

[HyperPower]

mrnyc already posted article above, damnit you guys dont miss anything...
Community Board 5 votes to give Madison Square Garden three years to relocate
https://www.amny.com/news/community-...s-to-relocate/

“The issue with Madison Square Garden here is that it is really a true impediment to Penn Station,” said Layla-Law Gisiko, chair of the board’s Land Use, Housing and Zoning Committee, who spearheaded the resolution on the matter.

ReThink Penn Station

https://www.ourtownny.com/fighting-e...tion-XA2299770

Removing the 20th centuries worst urban development blunder and building a proper Penn Station akin to the one they ripped out is the only solution. Knicks suck anyhow and always will with Dolan at the helm.

[DCReid]

Originally Posted by HyperPower

mrnyc already posted article above, damnit you guys dont miss anything...
Community Board 5 votes to give Madison Square Garden three years to relocate
https://www.amny.com/news/community-...s-to-relocate/



ReThink Penn Station

https://www.ourtownny.com/fighting-e...tion-XA2299770

Removing the 20th centuries worst urban development blunder and building a proper Penn Station akin to the one they ripped out is the only solution. Knicks suck anyhow and always will with Dolan at the helm.

Where will they go? It's too bad that a decision was not made 20 or 30 years ago as they probably could have considered the Hudson Yards area or even Long Island City. There are train tracks in Queens off the expressway near JFK airport and I wonder if the tracks can be decked and MSG built there.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

hmm, like i had thought the analysis above sez site 4 was to be a commercial building, or a mixed use commercial-residential building, but now it seems it will be fully residential.

The three options were hotel/office, residential/hotel, residential/office. Office won't be in the equation, so it could be strictly residential, or residential hotel.

Originally Posted by HyperPower

mrnyc already posted article above, damnit you guys dont miss anything...
Community Board 5 votes to give Madison Square Garden three years to relocate
[/SIZE]

Originally Posted by DCReid

Where will they go? It's too bad that a decision was not made 20 or 30 years ago as they probably could have considered the Hudson Yards area or even Long Island City. There are train tracks in Queens off the expressway near JFK airport and I wonder if the tracks can be decked and MSG built there.

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this. But I'll put it in all caps if that helps.

THE COMMUNITY BOARD HAS NO SAY AS TO WHETHER OR NOT MSG MOVES. IT IS A CITY DECISION, AND THE CITY IS CURRENTLY REWRITING THE PERMIT FOR IT TO STAY TO INCLUDE UPGRADES TO THE SURROUNDING PLAZAS.

(https://skyscraperpage.com/forum/sho...postcount=1151)

The community board has always held the position that the Garden should move, and that is their right. But MSG isn't going anywhere.

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by DCReid

Where will they go? It's too bad that a decision was not made 20 or 30 years ago as they probably could have considered the Hudson Yards area or even Long Island City. There are train tracks in Queens off the expressway near JFK airport and I wonder if the tracks can be decked and MSG built there.

A massive redevelopment of the two blocks between 32 and 34 and Seventh and Sixth. It would take lifting heaven and earth to accomplish but has the potential to be one of the most impressive civic improvements in decades.

[HyperPower]

∆∆∆
MSG VP signals willingness to relocate the Garden to accommodate Hochul’s Penn Station expansion..
https://nypost.com/2023/02/25/madiso...immediate=true

Originally Posted by DCReid

Where will they go? It's too bad that a decision was not made 20 or 30 years ago as they probably could have considered the Hudson Yards area or even Long Island City. There are train tracks in Queens off the expressway near JFK airport and I wonder if the tracks can be decked and MSG built there.

'A suggestion raised earlier in the hearing to move MSG across the street on Seventh Avenue, between 32nd and 34th streets “probably would satisfy us,” MSG VP Fisher said.'
After Penn Station area realty giant Vornado announced they would not be developing East of 7th Avenue, “there may be opportunities to move MSG eastward as well” Senator Hoylman-Sigal
(Hotel Penn area)

Good read from pro free speech;
The New Yorker
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...-square-garden



The City gave MSG a 10 year permit in 2013 which expires this Summer, the MSG VP also stated they wanted at least a few years in "perpetuity" to see if ESD & Vornado have a plan east of 7th Avenue akin to Community Board 5's three year boot...

The application will now proceed to Manhattan Borough President Mark Levine for his input before going to the City Planning Commission, which has the power to revise the venue’s special permit.

[Busy Bee]

are the stars aligning?

[HyperPower]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

are the stars aligning?

It only makes sense, why waste $6-8 billion on 'inprovements' of the area i.e. Penn Station when MSG the oldest most dank arena in all the country (1968) will eventually pick up and rebuild in the coming decades.

Now is the time to relocate across 7th Avenue and put the ESD funds towards a proper Penn Station.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

are the stars aligning?

No they’re not aligning. We discussed that a few months ago.

All you need to know about a potential MSG move can be summed up in the two applications currently winding through City Planning.

One is MSG’s permit renewal, and the other is the City’s own rewriting of that permit. To allow yourself to think anything otherwise would frankly be stupid. Follow the facts, not someone’s wishful thinking.








I should point out the other recent idea floated out there, to cover the plazas in glass to give a more uniform scale and look. But that’s just an idea at this point.

[Busy Bee]

All I can say NYguy is if you're wrong, I'll take the high road and promise not to rub it in your face.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

All I can say NYguy is if you're wrong, I'll take the high road and promise not to rub it in your face.

No, by all means, rub it in. I’m just telling you what’s going on. If by some miracle, the Garden is moved, I’ll be the first to say I was wrong.

[HyperPower]

Originally Posted by NYguy

No they’re not aligning. We discussed that a few months ago.

All you need to know about a potential MSG move can be summed up in the two applications currently winding through City Planning.

One is MSG’s permit renewal, and the other is the City’s own rewriting of that permit. To allow yourself to think anything otherwise would frankly be stupid. Follow the facts, not someone’s wishful thinking.

The City only granted MSG a ten year extension in 2013 that ends July 24th this year... to think they're going to receive another permanent or 10 year extension is very foolish.

They might get none or a 3-5 year window to move. Bye-Bye MSG, 7th Avenue East or Hudson Yards West are awaiting via Vornado and more powerful forces in the know.

They will also renegotiate their 'tax-exemption' and facial recognition issues plaguing their rats nest.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by HyperPower

The City only granted MSG a ten year extension in 2013 that ends July 24th this year... to think they're going to receive another permanent or 10 year extension is very foolish.

Only a clown would go against the evidence that is before him. Make of that what you will.



In the meantime, Vornado is moving forward with certification plans for the plazas around 1 Penn Plaza, including what is the site for tower 4.