VIA Rail network developments

[phil235]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

If you look at the pics on Slides 7 & 10... it looks like the pedestrian access to the Trainyards is part of the deal!

I was wondering the same after looking at those pictures. If they are refurbishing the tunnel and putting more retail space in the station, it would definitely make sense.

[passwordisnt123]

It's unclear to me but, based on the PDF, it looks like we may not be getting that pedestrian tunnel until "post-2035". See page 7.

http://www.ncc-ccn.gc.ca/sites/defau...esentation.pdf

[rstnvrslps]

yeah it's not clear but post-2035 hopefully refers to southside platform and not the tunnel to train yards. they'd be imbeciles to wait 17+ years to connect train yards to LRT.

[eemy]

The renders seem inconsistent in this regard, but it looks like there will only be one track between the island platforms and possibly only one track between the north island platform and north platform (depending on the render). It almost seems like a Spanish solution design with the north island platform presumably being used for arriving passengers and departing passengers using the north platform and south island platform. I'm not sure I've ever heard of the Spanish solution being used for intercity trains, though. Is this a common thing?

[c_speed3108]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

The renders seem inconsistent in this regard, but it looks like there will only be one track between the island platforms and possibly only one track between the north island platform and north platform (depending on the render). It almost seems like a Spanish solution design with the north island platform presumably being used for arriving passengers and departing passengers using the north platform and south island platform. I'm not sure I've ever heard of the Spanish solution being used for intercity trains, though. Is this a common thing?

It is possible this is what they have in mind. They also mention the platforms being heated.

The VIA CEO's plan for VIA to have more of it's own trackage, and faster trains involves most Montreal to Toronto trains being routed VIA Ottawa, therefore it would make sense that they want to make the Ottawa stop as fast as possible as it will be largest delay. Things like heated platforms would allow VIA to have passengers cued up on the platform as the train comes in. Disembark on one side and board on the other would also save some ciaos and possibly some time. Right now it is very much unload and then and only then are boarding passengers even led out to the train.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

The renders seem inconsistent in this regard, but it looks like there will only be one track between the island platforms and possibly only one track between the north island platform and north platform (depending on the render). It almost seems like a Spanish solution design with the north island platform presumably being used for arriving passengers and departing passengers using the north platform and south island platform. I'm not sure I've ever heard of the Spanish solution being used for intercity trains, though. Is this a common thing?

Might just be as simple as they needed wider platforms than were the norm in the 1960s and needed to cannibalize a track.

What surprised me is how short the new platforms are. Via often runs longer trains than that (particularly on long weekends)

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by rstnvrslps

yeah it's not clear but post-2035 hopefully refers to southside platform and not the tunnel to train yards. they'd be imbeciles to wait 17+ years to connect train yards to LRT.

I'm guessing that the stuff labelled "post-2035" is the stuff they expect to need in the future once demand is higher. Basically stuff they're futureproofing for.

It would be very weird for something other than futureproofing to have a labelled date. If this was something unfunded and unplanned at this time they would just say "Future" instead of giving an actual year to it.

[roger1818]

IMHO, one of the highest priorities for VIA rail should be upgrade the approach into Central Station in Montreal. I know trains can't travel at high speed along there, but it seems to me like they have to travel needlessly slowly because of the infrastructure. I would guess that they could probably save about 5 minutes of travel time with some serious track improvements. Since almost every VIA train in and out of Montreal use those tracks, that would amount to over an hour (probably 1.5 hours) of time saved on the schedule. Even better would be if they could find a way to use Gare Lucien-L'Allier as they could probably shave 10 or 15 minutes off of the trips to and from the west, but that would cause connection problems with other trains. I'm dreaming I know, but optimally they would buy the CPR's track into Montreal east of the Alexandria Subdivision and re-route all of their trains along that.

The other improvement they should make is double track the vast majority of the Alexandria, Smith Falls and Brockville subdivisions. They could skip the expensive bits (like the bridge over the South Nation River at Casselman) for now, but double tracking the vast majority of the subdivision would significantly reduce travel times, improve on time performance and allow more frequent departures. With sidings (like they currently have), the first train to reach the siding has to at best slow down and at worst stop and wait for the opposing train. They can try an minimize delays with scheduling, but if one train is late, then the other train also becomes late. By double tracking most of the route, only if the trains happen to both meet at one of the expensive parts will one trains have to wait, and it would be easy to adjust the schedule to make that not happen unless one train is significantly late. Even then, since the stretch of single track would be short, the delay for the train that gets there second, would be minimal.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by roger1818

IMHO, one of the highest priorities for VIA rail should be upgrade the approach into Central Station in Montreal. I know trains can't travel at high speed along there, but it seems to me like they have to travel needlessly slowly because of the infrastructure. I would guess that they could probably save about 5 minutes of travel time with some serious track improvements. Since almost every VIA train in and out of Montreal use those tracks, that would amount to over an hour (probably 1.5 hours) of time saved on the schedule. Even better would be if they could find a way to use Gare Lucien-L'Allier as they could probably shave 10 or 15 minutes off of the trips to and from the west, but that would cause connection problems with other trains. I'm dreaming I know, but optimally they would buy the CPR's track into Montreal east of the Alexandria Subdivision and re-route all of their trains along that.

The other improvement they should make is double track the vast majority of the Alexandria, Smith Falls and Brockville subdivisions. They could skip the expensive bits (like the bridge over the South Nation River at Casselman) for now, but double tracking the vast majority of the subdivision would significantly reduce travel times, improve on time performance and allow more frequent departures. With sidings (like they currently have), the first train to reach the siding has to at best slow down and at worst stop and wait for the opposing train. They can try an minimize delays with scheduling, but if one train is late, then the other train also becomes late. By double tracking most of the route, only if the trains happen to both meet at one of the expensive parts will one trains have to wait, and it would be easy to adjust the schedule to make that not happen unless one train is significantly late. Even then, since the stretch of single track would be short, the delay for the train that gets there second, would be minimal.

GO Transit in Toronto manages to have "live passing"--trains passing each other without any slowdown to either one--with sidings about 5-10km long. They're building one of those right now in Scarborough to enable hourly off-peak trains between Toronto and Markham starting next year as an interim step towards full double tracking and electrification.

[Innsertnamehere]

They already have one on the Barrie line for their weekend all day service in the summers, which is only around 3km long. They are building a second one, around 7km long, that would allow for hourly service, like the one you mentioned on the Stouffville line.

Stouffville has had a small passing track for several years now (around 2km), but Metrolinx never used it as it isn't long enough. Its getting extended to be around 7km now, which will make it long enough to be usable.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

GO Transit in Toronto manages to have "live passing"--trains passing each other without any slowdown to either one--with sidings about 5-10km long.

Maybe, but VIA doesn't seem to be able to manage that. Almost every train I have been on between Ottawa and Montreal has to slow down at least once for another train.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Maybe, but VIA doesn't seem to be able to manage that. Almost every train I have been on between Ottawa and Montreal has to slow down at least once for another train.

Because the sidings on the VIA tracks aren't long enough.

[Innsertnamehere]

And issues arise when the train you are trying to let by is in itself 2km long.. and travelling at a very different speed than you. Via would probably need a 20km siding to properly pass a freight train.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Because the sidings on the VIA tracks aren't long enough.

Likely true. Also, I am not sure what the maximum speed of a GO train is, but my guess is that it is somewhere around 100 km/h. Given that VIA trains travel up to 160 km/h, the sidings would need to be even longer to not have to slow down, not only because they will travel through it faster, but they would need a longer stopping distance if it isn't all clear when it reaches the end of the siding.

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

And issues arise when the train you are trying to let by is in itself 2km long.. and travelling at a very different speed than you. Via would probably need a 20km siding to properly pass a freight train.

I don't think there are too many 2km long freight trains on the Alexandria subdivision. The only times I can remember having to wait for a freight train along it it when crossing the CP line near the eastern end, and no amount of double track will prevent that.

[1overcosc]

There's very little freight traffic on the corridor's "Ottawa spur" (from Brockville through Ottawa and down to Coteau). The entire spur, save for a very small section through Smiths Falls where it travels through a freight rail yard, is now owned by VIA. I'm pretty sure that rail yard is the only place in the entire Ottawa spur that VIA actually interacts with freight; I take the train between Kingston and Ottawa constantly and I've never seen a freight anywhere other than Smiths Falls along the route.

So on the Brockville, Smiths Falls, and Alexandria subdivisions, the only issue is VIA trains waiting for each other, which can be fixed with 7km sidings.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

There's very little freight traffic on the corridor's "Ottawa spur" (from Brockville through Ottawa and down to Coteau). The entire spur, save for a very small section through Smiths Falls where it travels through a freight rail yard, is now owned by VIA.

I believe the Canadian Northern Ontario Railway Federal Bridge over the Rideau River (Mile 5.8, subdivision Beachburg) is owned by CN. They don't have much freight traffic along the Beachburg subdivision, so it isn't much of an issue.

I'm pretty sure that rail yard is the only place in the entire Ottawa spur that VIA actually interacts with freight;

The other place VIA regularly interacts with freight is on the Alexandria subdivision where it crosses the CPR Winchester Subdivision, but similar to Smiths Falls, no amount of sidings or double track will solve that, as VIA has to cross to the other side. Grade separation is the only solution in both cases.

So on the Brockville, Smiths Falls, and Alexandria subdivisions, the only issue is VIA trains waiting for each other, which can be fixed with 7km sidings.

While an improvement, I am not convinced 7km is enough for the faster trains VIA operates. I'm not even sure if a train could switch onto a siding at 160 km/h without slowing down.

Even if you assume all this is okay, looking at the Alexandria Subdivision, for example, they would probably want at least 3 sidings (probably more) so that they could have several choices of locations to pass. That would be a minimum of 21 km of sidings. Given that the entire subdivision is about 125 km from Ottawa to the Junction with the Cornwall Subdivision, I still say why not double track all but the most expensive bits to maximize flexibility.

[GoTrans]

Originally Posted by roger1818

I believe the Canadian Northern Ontario Railway Federal Bridge over the Rideau River (Mile 5.8, subdivision Beachburg) is owned by CN. They don't have much freight traffic along the Beachburg subdivision, so it isn't much of an issue.



The other place VIA regularly interacts with freight is on the Alexandria subdivision where it crosses the CPR Winchester Subdivision, but similar to Smiths Falls, no amount of sidings or double track will solve that, as VIA has to cross to the other side. Grade separation is the only solution in both cases.



While an improvement, I am not convinced 7km is enough for the faster trains VIA operates. I'm not even sure if a train could switch onto a siding at 160 km/h without slowing down.

Even if you assume all this is okay, looking at the Alexandria Subdivision, for example, they would probably want at least 3 sidings (probably more) so that they could have several choices of locations to pass. That would be a minimum of 21 km of sidings. Given that the entire subdivision is about 125 km from Ottawa to the Junction with the Cornwall Subdivision, I still say why not double track all but the most expensive bits to maximize flexibility.

Does any one know how many sidings there currently are between Ottawa and Coteau?

I agree that 7km long sidings are not sufficient and as a starter I would make most sidings 15km long between sections of double track. Just look at the O Train to see how ineffective short sidings are.

One of the biggest problems is for trains getting from Gare Centrale to Coteau on time. The incomplete corridor improvements at Les Cedres is a big impediment to on time performance. When this is coupled with train delays waiting to cross the CP mainline between Coteau and Alexandria the situation only gets worse.

Similarily, there needs to be extended sidings between Fallowfield and Ottawa Station. Trains often arrive at Fallowfield on time but arrive late at the Ottawa Station.

Clearly Via should be asking the federal government for some infrastructure money to do some improvements between Montreal and Brockville via Ottawa. If trains are ever going to run on time and at a sufficient speed to attract ridership there has to be more investment in trackage, signalling and grade separations.

[eternallyme]

One part of me wishes that the northern end of Colonel By Drive could be graded out and replaced by a rail corridor to reconnect trains to the old Union Station...it just requires a reconnection to the existing rail line (probably around today's Lycee Claudel bus station). The most expensive part would be the Rideau River bridge and clearing many ramps in the 417/Nicholas interchange (the ROW is clear though).

[Aylmer]

What an improvement that would be over the current station... I use the train very often and it's just terrible to get off in the middle of nowhere with next to no options to get around other than a $15 taxi ride or a ridiculously long and infrequent bus. Forget about walking or biking anywhere.

That said, the situation will improve drastically in the coming years: level boarding (and hopefully heated and sheltered platforms), a direct connection to a 4-minute metro ride to Downtown... Nothing beats getting out of a train and finding yourself in the heart of it all, but at least it'll go from remarkably unbearable to unremarkably functional.

But I can't help but dream that one day, we'll find the courage to sink the $0.5-1B or whatever to bring rail back into the heart of the city, presumably via a tunnel under Col By Drive. The only way I see it being proposed is as part of a larger push for a regional O-Train which would require a more direct downtown connection - That's what spurred Auckland's own return of rail to downtown and it has been wildly successful by any measure; in 2004, they brought their main railway station back downtown (after more than 70 years) through a tunnel and an underground station for only about $200M and the ridership on their O-Train-like network took off to such an extent that they reached their 2021 ridership goals by 2009 (!) and they're now extending it further through the core.



Perhaps it could be coupled with the truck tunnel as a larger infrastructure push for and through the centre of town. Who knows? It wouldn't be the craziest piece of infrastructure (Toronto Stubway, Turcot... Heck, didn't the 417 to Arnprior cost over half a billion?).

So going from awful to fine is definitely an improvement...
...but we can dream, can't we?

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

One part of me wishes that the northern end of Colonel By Drive could be graded out and replaced by a rail corridor to reconnect trains to the old Union Station...it just requires a reconnection to the existing rail line (probably around today's Lycee Claudel bus station). The most expensive part would be the Rideau River bridge and clearing many ramps in the 417/Nicholas interchange (the ROW is clear though).

And let's demolish the Shaw Centre and DND for train yards to reconstitute the trainsets, and forget about ever walking or cycling to the canal from the university or Sandy Hill. Write off Corktown Bridge as just away to get to the other side of the canal and no further east. It will also be so much fun waiting for a taxi or your ride at the busiest intersection downtown if, like most of the VIA passengers, downtown isn't your ultimate destination. Just bring back the streetcars and we can pretend it's the 1930s all over again!