General STO News and Rapibus System

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

That statement comes close to the root of the problem in this metropolitan region. Here's a reality: Gatineau is a suburb/satellite city of Ottawa. As much as the Quebecois nationalists there, and the francophone bashers over here, want to think otherwise, it's true. Gatineau should be treated the same as Kanata--as an Ottawa suburb. As such rapid transit to Gatineau should be provided as part of Ottawa's rapid transit network.

I'm sure myself and a few others have stated similar thoughts before in different threads.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

That statement comes close to the root of the problem in this metropolitan region. Here's a reality: Gatineau is a suburb/satellite city of Ottawa. As much as the Quebecois nationalists there, and the francophone bashers over here, want to think otherwise, it's true. Gatineau should be treated the same as Kanata--as an Ottawa suburb. As such rapid transit to Gatineau should be provided as part of Ottawa's rapid transit network.

I know it seems that way to most on the Ottawa side but viewed from the Gatineau side it's not how things generally appear. And I say this as someone originally from Ottawa who expected it to be that way (your view) when I moved here and was surprised it wasn't.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I know it seems that way to most on the Ottawa side but viewed from the Gatineau side it's not how things generally appear. And I say this as someone originally from Ottawa who expected it to be that way (your view) when I moved here and was surprised it wasn't.

It's not that there's a strong separatist attitude in Gatineau but there's certainly a vibe that it likes to pretend it's a real independent city (in the economic sense) and that Ottawa is just some far distant land where a few of its residents just happen to work.

If it wasn't for all the employment in Ottawa, Gatineau wouldn't be much of a city. The bridges into Ottawa are full of traffic every morning for a reason.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

It's not that there's a strong separatist attitude in Gatineau but there's certainly a vibe that it likes to pretend it's a real independent city (in the economic sense) and that Ottawa is just some far distant land where a few of its residents just happen to work.

If it wasn't for all the employment in Ottawa, Gatineau wouldn't be much of a city. The bridges into Ottawa are full of traffic every morning for a reason.

IMO Quebecois nationalism does play some role in Gatinois' false sense of independence. While many people are not separatists politically, they do feel a sense of Quebec as a distinct community (this is something a lot of English Canadians have difficulty understanding, they hear 'nationalism' and immediately think of political separatists) With a viewpoint like that the reality that your city is dependent on one outside of that distinct community is a hard pill to swallow.

I do agree that non-nationalist factors are definitely at play as well. Kanata long had a similarly snarky sense of independence from Ottawa (although one without cultural/national factors obviously), and over the years with greater integration of the RMOC followed by amalgamation Kanatans were put in their place, although the sense of independence still pervades their civic mindset to an extent.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

IMO Quebecois nationalism does play some role in Gatinois' false sense of independence. While many people are not separatists politically, they do feel a sense of Quebec as a distinct community (this is something a lot of English Canadians have difficulty understanding, they hear 'nationalism' and immediately think of political separatists) With a viewpoint like that the reality that your city is dependent on one outside of that distinct community is a hard pill to swallow.

I do agree that non-nationalist factors are definitely at play as well. Kanata long had a similarly snarky sense of independence from Ottawa (although one without cultural/national factors obviously), and over the years with greater integration of the RMOC followed by amalgamation Kanatans were put in their place, although the sense of independence still pervades their civic mindset to an extent.

I think this can be best described as civic pride. There is a lot of positive things that came about as a result of amalgamation but as someone who lived in one of the former municipalities, there is also a sense of loss because of the lack of local control over local issues. Everything seems to have gone into a black hole on Laurier Avenue and none of our opinions on any issue seem to matter anymore. To say that Kanata residents have been put in their place is very unsympathetic and many positive things can come about from residents having pride in their community. It is frustrating to see city council ram something down on a community as a result of councillors' votes from other parts of the city. I have seen this a number of times. To some degree, the rural communities have managed a degree of local control but that is the result of strong local institutions that are volunteer based. Those local volunteer institutions did not exist to the same degree in Kanata, Nepean and Gloucester.

There is certainly a linguistic element regarding Gatineau and the confusion about language and politics in Quebec. That does give the false sense of civic independence, which has thrown major road blocks into planning the region. This has been demonstrated by the lack of cooperation in transit planning and transportation planning in general. But as I said, there are positive aspects of maintaining a seperate municipal government. If we could only find a middle ground where a better degree of cooperation could take place.

[Acajack]

A few comments on Gatineau with respect to Ottawa...

I must say that when I moved to Gatineau I was very surprised at how self-contained (to the exclusion of Ottawa) most aspects of life were here. Especially socially. My dad (who lived and worked in Ottawa most of his professional life) used to say that many Gatineau coworkers would regularly cross over to Quebec for lunch. I didn't get it when I lived in Ottawa - but now I do. Sure, people from Gatineau go to Ottawa for stuff (some more than others) but for some reason it's not at all the same as someone from Orleans or Barrhaven going to downtown. Even before amalgamation and the Ottawa megacity, people in Kanata and Orleans pretty much considered themselves as "from Ottawa". Few people in Gatineau (except for some of our anglos and Franco-Ontarian "expats") would say they are "from Ottawa". When Franco-Ontarian relatives come to stay with us and phone friends back home and say "they're in Ottawa", my kids for some reason naturally find that weird. I am not sure kids in Orleans would think the same way. (Even pre-amalgamation.)

Now, the discussion about "dependence" is interesting because the vast majority of this is related to federal government jobs. People in Ottawa may see things differently but in Gatineau most don't see these as "Ottawa jobs" but rather "Canadian jobs". They just happen to be located in buildings in Ottawa. People in Gatineau don't see Dave from Kanata who works in IT at Portage as being dependent upon Gatineau and the Québécois nation, and so they don't on the other hand see the issue with Manon working for TBS at L'Esplanade Laurier either. The majority of people who hold down jobs on the Island of Hull (downtown Hull is an island, in case people don't know) are Ontario residents, but no one sees this as leeching off Gatineau or Quebec.

There is also some of the employment held in Ottawa by Gatinois that happens to be on that side of the river because of quirks of history or other reasons: Le Droit for example, Radio-Canada's French language operations for the region, the Civil Law Faculty at the University of Ottawa. The francophone component of the National Arts Centre's activities.

There is quite a bit of stuff in Ottawa (especially related to the French language) that would be on a much smaller scale or perhaps would not even exist if Gatineau was not there. Just think of La Cité collégiale for example.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

There is certainly a linguistic element regarding Gatineau and the confusion about language and politics in Quebec. That does give the false sense of civic independence, .

Except that the sense of civic independence is not false. It *IS* a separate city, with it's own administration, police, fire, etc. Different court system, different education system, different electrical system, different cable TV provider, different (main) operating language, different laws in some respects, etc.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

IMO Quebecois nationalism does play some role in Gatinois' false sense of independence. While many people are not separatists politically, they do feel a sense of Quebec as a distinct community (this is something a lot of English Canadians have difficulty understanding, they hear 'nationalism' and immediately think of political separatists) With a viewpoint like that the reality that your city is dependent on one outside of that distinct community is a hard pill to swallow.

With respect to sharing any new type of political structure with Ottawa, I think people in Gatineau are leery for a variety of reasons. First of all, there is a perception that Gatineau and the Quebec is an afterthought and even a dumping ground for stuff that Ottawa doesn't want in its backyard. And also that we are simply seen as a source for the four Ss: sex, ski, sand and suds.

I think most in Gatineau would rather run their own affairs as opposed to being Ottawa's "rump" even more than we are perceived to be at the moment.

If one looks at what happened to places like Vanier under the old RMOC and then the new city of Ottawa (huge social housing concentration leading to a disaster for the established community), much of Gatineau has great potential for this type of mess but on a much larger scale.

There is also of course the question of bilingualism within any shared structure, and the perception that Ottawa talks the talk on bilingualism but doesn't walk the walk: lots of bilingual signage à la RUE/STREET but frontline bilingual services are often non-existent or hit and miss at best. My kids picked up just by themselves at a very young age that unless you are in a federal museum or a caisse populaire, when you go to Ottawa you gotta speak English.

[J.OT13]

Does anyone have examples of rapid transit systems that cross different jurisdictions?

Although the whole independence and français vs. English is a huge obstacle, it seems to me that the simple fact that Gatineau has the STO and Ottawa has OC is a bigger issue. The question of who pays what in both capital and operating costs is a pretty important one. Of course the fact that both sides of the river are different provinces would cause big problems when it comes to funding.

Most (if not all) transit systems that seamlessly cross boarders is usually operated by a regional transit service, sort of like OC Transpo pre amalgamation, Translink in Vancouver (provincially funded), GO Transit in TO (100% provincially funded) and the San Francisco Bay Area Rapid Transit District.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Does anyone have examples of rapid transit systems that cross different jurisdictions?

Although the whole independence and français vs. English is a huge obstacle, it seems to me that the simple fact that Gatineau has the STO and Ottawa has OC is a bigger issue. The question of who pays what in both capital and operating costs is a pretty important one. Of course the fact that both sides of the river are different provinces would cause big problems when it comes to funding.

Most (if not all) transit systems that seamlessly cross boarders is usually operated by a regional transit service, sort of like OC Transpo pre amalgamation, Translink in Vancouver (provincially funded), GO Transit in TO (100% provincially funded) and the San Francisco Bay Area Rapid Transit District.

I believe that in the NYC area much of the transit is integrated across state borders.

Windsor Transit crosses into Detroit for some lines I am pretty sure.

And there are many transit systems across country borders in Europe:

Lille, France into Belgium
Sarrebruck, Germany into France
Geneva, Switzerland and neighbouring France
Basel, Switzerland and neighbouring France and Germany

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I believe that in the NYC area much of the transit is integrated across state borders.

Washington, D.C., into Virginia and Maryland:

[Schattenjager]

Minneapolis St Paul Subway system, two cities, two states (Wisconsin & Minnesota).

[gjhall]

Originally Posted by Schattenjager

Minneapolis St Paul Subway system, two cities, two states (Wisconsin & Minnesota).

Minneapolis and St Paul are both in Minnesota.

Kenosha and Miwaukee in Wisconsin do have some commuter rail service from Chicago.

The New York/NJ/CT/northeast Pennsylvania area certainly has cross-jurisdictional transit, though there is some fragmentation within it, of course.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by gjhall

Minneapolis and St Paul are both in Minnesota.

Kenosha and Miwaukee in Wisconsin do have some commuter rail service from Chicago.

The New York/NJ/CT/northeast Pennsylvania area certainly has cross-jurisdictional transit, though there is some fragmentation within it, of course.

You are right but there is actually a small portion of the Twin Cities metro that is in Wisconson. But yeah the two main cities and most of the metro is in one state.

[Schattenjager]

Originally Posted by gjhall

Minneapolis and St Paul are both in Minnesota.

Kenosha and Miwaukee in Wisconsin do have some commuter rail service from Chicago.

The New York/NJ/CT/northeast Pennsylvania area certainly has cross-jurisdictional transit, though there is some fragmentation within it, of course.

Oops, that assumption had been based on simply eyeing the map on Google Maps, my bad.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by Acajack

With respect to sharing any new type of political structure with Ottawa, I think people in Gatineau are leery for a variety of reasons. First of all, there is a perception that Gatineau and the Quebec is an afterthought and even a dumping ground for stuff that Ottawa doesn't want in its backyard. And also that we are simply seen as a source for the four Ss: sex, ski, sand and suds.

I think most in Gatineau would rather run their own affairs as opposed to being Ottawa's "rump" even more than we are perceived to be at the moment.

If one looks at what happened to places like Vanier under the old RMOC and then the new city of Ottawa (huge social housing concentration leading to a disaster for the established community), much of Gatineau has great potential for this type of mess but on a much larger scale.

There is also of course the question of bilingualism within any shared structure, and the perception that Ottawa talks the talk on bilingualism but doesn't walk the walk: lots of bilingual signage à la RUE/STREET but frontline bilingual services are often non-existent or hit and miss at best. My kids picked up just by themselves at a very young age that unless you are in a federal museum or a caisse populaire, when you go to Ottawa you gotta speak English.

Is Gatineau paranoid they'll lose all their autonomy if they cooperate with Ottawa on transportation and transit issues?

Isn't the concentration of social housing in Overbrook?

And seriously, I cant imagine how Gatineau would ever become a huge swatch of social housing.

And I object to your last sentence. As a francophone I am pleasantly surprised how often I can get french service in Ottawa (public and private sector) but I can admit It's not consistent. There's a limited number of bilingual workers around and a huge chunk of them are in the federal public service.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

Is Gatineau paranoid they'll lose all their autonomy if they cooperate with Ottawa on transportation and transit issues?

Isn't the concentration of social housing in Overbrook?

And seriously, I cant imagine how Gatineau would ever become a huge swatch of social housing.

And I object to your last sentence. As a francophone I am pleasantly surprised how often I can get french service in Ottawa (public and private sector) but I can admit It's not consistent. There's a limited number of bilingual workers around and a huge chunk of them are in the federal public service.

I could understand why they wouldn't want to amalgamate with Ottawa, unless it's absolutely necessary (Québec separates) but I believe that there should be one transit authority in the region.

As for French service on the Ottawa side (or English service on the Gatineau side), I never noticed; I always revert to the default language of the respective province.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Washington, D.C., into Virginia and Maryland:

It's true that there is a major rail system, but most of the bus systems are separate. Montgomery, Prince George's, Fairfax, Arlington, etc. all have separate transit systems.

Another example: St. Louis - at least their LRT - goes between Illinois and Missouri.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Except that the sense of civic independence is not false. It *IS* a separate city, with it's own administration, police, fire, etc. Different court system, different education system, different electrical system, different cable TV provider, different (main) operating language, different laws in some respects, etc.

This may be true but Ottawa-Gatineau is for the most part one economic unit, and one metropolitan area. Ontario and Quebec residents routinely cross the boundary for work and play and we need to plan accordingly. The federal government as the biggest employer and by policy encourages this interaction between the residents of the two cities. The municipal and provincial governments fail to consider the realities of the metropolitan area. This is partly the result of the linguistic divide but also a degree of hostility from nationalist Quebec governments. There is the need for the federal government to show some leadership but from what I observed over the years, Conservative governments tend to neglect this leadership role. As result, there is no consistent ongoing planning of the metropolitan area. It is hit and miss depending on who is in power. This is reflected in the inability to get a new interprovincial bridge off the ground and building a disjointed and incompatible rapid transit network that will never cross the boundary even though this may be the most critical need in the long term. It is a demonstration of failure of the current planning system (especially compared to a similar example in Washington DC), and I believe this failure is getting worse to the point of planning paralysis.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This may be true but Ottawa-Gatineau is for the most part one economic unit, and one metropolitan area. Ontario and Quebec residents routinely cross the boundary for work and play and we need to plan accordingly. The federal government as the biggest employer and by policy encourages this interaction between the residents of the two cities. The municipal and provincial governments fail to consider the realities of the metropolitan area. This is partly the result of the linguistic divide but also a degree of hostility from nationalist Quebec governments. There is the need for the federal government to show some leadership but from what I observed over the years, Conservative governments tend to neglect this leadership role. As result, there is no consistent ongoing planning of the metropolitan area. It is hit and miss depending on who is in power. This is reflected in the inability to get a new interprovincial bridge off the ground and building a disjointed and incompatible rapid transit network that will never cross the boundary even though this may be the most critical need in the long term.

That is one huge mistake by residents and governments mostly! And all parties are guilty there.