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  #641  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2011, 2:16 AM
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Originally Posted by galeforcewinds View Post
Wats the point of the detour being tunelled if you can take the line over the burrard bridge?
I don't think there are actual provisions on the Burrard Bridge that could allow for that...
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  #642  
Old Posted Aug 20, 2011, 3:03 AM
Zassk Zassk is offline
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Burrard Bridge is ancient and deteriorating. There is no point in planning any kind of transit over it, not even buses, beyond about 10 years from now. Instead, we should debate whether the bridge will be replaced, or completely removed as part of the ongoing war against cars (but in a different thread). Its time will come sooner than Lion's Gate Bridge since it is made of concrete.
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  #643  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2011, 5:14 PM
jsbertram jsbertram is offline
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Originally Posted by xd_1771 View Post
I don't think there are actual provisions on the Burrard Bridge that could allow for that...
I would have expected streetcar tracks to be put on the bridge was it was built in the 30s when streetcars were backbone of transit in the city.

There have been rumours for years that the steelwork that supports the road deck was designed to allow for rails to be added later under the roadway.
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  #644  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2011, 7:17 PM
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Originally Posted by xd_1771 View Post
At 2.2km vs 1.6km the distance difference is very minimal. The line can be constructed with little to no interfering development in a way. A station placed in the vicinity can also serve the mini commercial/business district around 4th & Burrard, as well as Granville Island. You make a good point about moving the Arbutus ROW in favour of a heritage streetcar however.... problem is would moving the line to Macdonald, resulting in more challenging ROW and taking away from some key areas such as Arbutus Village, really worth it? If environmental/surrounding impact is what you're worried about with construction of Skytrain along the Arbutus ROW, there is the option to place it underground.

If you were talking about why I'm placing the route where it is around the Burrard Bridge vs. a straight shot between Broadway/Arbutus and Yaletown, it has to do with other destinations (non-residential) along the route - i.e. Vanier Park, nearby museums, and Sunset Beach.

---
I would like to see the Vancouver Loop line include the loop around downtown with 2 additional stations: one at Georgia and Denman and the other at Davie and Denman. These would provide service to all those tourists flocking to Stanley Park and English Bay. And would also serve locals getting around downtown peninsula.
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  #645  
Old Posted Aug 21, 2011, 10:22 PM
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^ The Denman service would be significantly longer and more expensive, but it does seem a worthwhile consideration. Be reminded too that the extension of the Vancouver streetcar down Cordova towards Coal Harbour & Stanley Park may mitigate the Stanley Park situation.
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  #646  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2011, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by xd_1771 View Post
The thing about Kitsilano is that this is no 2 block (hospital) or 3-4 block (Langara) difference. To route the line elsewhere would be neglecting this community - a community in which there are several major and popular destinations for people from elsewhere. To take the line and have it totally skip Kitsilano is in my opinion a step in the wrong direction - it is like taking a huge chunk of ridership potential (not just from Kitsilano residents who may ride the line, but others who may ride to Kitsilano and other such areas)

Although servicing through commutes through completing the circle would be nice, omitting the southwest corner of the loop I could definitely understand (perhaps the 49th Avenue portion could stop at Kerrisdale , until/unless if it is absolutely necessary to extend the line to complete the circle), but the lack of service to Kitsilano and area (which, mind you, wouldn't just be for the residents there) when there is little compromise to line length & cost, and higher potential benefit and more destinations served, not so much.

To compare (let us assume that all of this will be constructed by bored tunnel):
Exhibit A: 6th west of Burrard to Pacific and Drake via modified routing: Burrard -> under False Creek -> Pacific Blvd: 2.6KM

Exhibit B: 6th west of Burrard to Pacific and Drake - most direct route: 1.85KM


For a relatively minimal difference in line length, you are going out of the way to better serve these potential destinations: Vanier Park/Point Grey, Hadden Park, Jericho Beach, the Vancouver Aquatic Centre, Sunset Beach, and the southern end of the Granville St corridor. In addition, if the circle were to never be completed and the line to never continue past Broadway and Arbutus, this pretty much renders the need for faster through commute somewhat less significant.

I don't see why it doesn't make sense.
What is the point of this line? Who wants to go from condos in Kerrisdale to condos in Yaletown, and bypass downtown? Why spend the money on a Skytrain line that will require everyone on it to transfer to actually get anywhere interesting? The part of Yaletown you travel through is already done, so there is no possibility of ToD, and it doesn't take anyone who lives along it to a major employment center. It just skirts around the edge of downtown, being as far away from the CBD as possible, and horizontally connecting communities that want to travel to the hub. Honestly, who is going to ride this without transferring to Canada Line or Expo Line?

If you are going to make people transfer anyway to get to the CBD, this may as well be LRT and NOT cross False Creek. Just run trains at grade on the Arbutus ROW, under the Granville street bridge, and along the existing ROW along false creek. Then you make the connections for transfers at Arbutus (Broadway Line), Olympic Village (Canada Line), Main Street (Expo Line), and Hastings (Hastings Line), then turn towards Waterfront to bring commuters through Gastown or onto Coal Harbour (with a single ride) and save a lot of money.

Otherwise it seems to be a multi-billion dollar inconvenience.
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  #647  
Old Posted Aug 22, 2011, 11:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Toddlertoddy View Post
Changed a few things:
http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?msa=0&...88,0.4319&z=12

Thanks for the tips.
It's looking good, but I too have some suggestions.

1. In Richmond, I would put your Sturgeon line down Granville (or Blundelle to pass a few more apartment buildings) and then down Railway Ave (or down the McCallan trail between Railway and Westminster Hwy). Railway has the space for the tracks to be laid at grade without interfering or requiring any major road work. After the Downtown Streetcar and Arbutus ROW, it is probably the cheapest possible line to build in Metro Vancouver.

Also, by having further east makes it closer to A LOT MORE people. Having it so close to the ocean means so many more people have to ride such a long bus ride to get to the line that the transfer will be unattractive and many will just ride buses into Richmond. If the tram went down No1 road, people along Railway will still just take buses along Railway into Richmond, instead of using the capacity on the train, defeating its purpose and the savings mass transit offers Translink's operating budget. Having it further east makes it more attractive to so many more people, and a lot cheaper to put in.

2. The Langley Line: it shouldn't go through Cloverdale. Cloverdale does offer some density and a destination or two, but it brings it away from so many other people. The racetrack isn't really something that should be considered a priority destination for rapid transit, and stuff happens at the fair ground twice a year. It's over spending on a few troubled gamblers and rare event.

It also increases the travel times from Langley, making it not an attractive alternative to driving. It zigzags around making it a long trip, whereas going straight down Fraser Highway makes the trip faster than even driving.

And while it would pass a couple of condo buildings in downtown Cloverdale, it's really not that much. It also makes the train run along almost half its journey right along the edge of the ALR. That automatically halves the number of people that can be within walking distance and within a short bus ride compared to if the train went down Fraser Hwy. Most commuters in the Cloverdale area would have to travel a long way south by foot or bus to get to the train... only to ultimately travel north. It's back and forth travel. Bus lines will have to traverse long distances through Cloverdale/Clayton to get to the Skytrain, decreasing the impact it can have on operating costs.

If the train went straight down Fraser Hwy, all the way to Langley, then you have large amounts of people living to both the North AND South of stations, with many tens of thousands within a 5 to 10 minute bus ride. It would also shorten and simply many bus routes, meaning routes can now have double the frequency using the same number of buses and drivers.

By going though Cloverdale, the line is really only useful to residents south of 60 ave, making the line almost useless to over 3/4 of the Cloverdale/Clayton and Langley population. And as new homes are built farther north, they only get that much farther from the Skytrain, making them car dependent from the getgo.

To visualize what I'm talking about, imagine bubbles extending from the stations 360 degrees that encompass people that can walk to the station, then larger bubbles that cover the area of 10 minute bus rides to stations. For your proposed route, half the volume of the bubbles will be over the ALR, and most of Clayton won't be anywhere near the largest bubbles. People in the fast growing and densely populated East Clayton and further north would have to bus all the way into Fleetwood to catch this train.

3. I don't think I would put the Surrey LRT down Scott Road, and I live on Scott Road. I think the money would be better spent sending LRT all the way down to South Surrey. Then increase east-west bus service to offer better connections to the new LRT line on King George. After the line is built to White Rock, then I would consider the possibility of building a branch down 72nd Ave to at least Scottsdale and potentially down Scott Road.

4. Arbutus and Marine I think should terminate at New Westminster Station. I don't think the residents of the area around 22nd street station would like another train going through their neighborhood. You would also have to build some significant infrastructure to get the tracks up from the ROW and over or under the Queensborough bridge interchange. By having the LRT go through to New West, you could avoid that cost and potential NIMBYs.

The ROW is basically right across the street from New Westminster Station, and with the new shops in the area, it makes it a great transfer point where commuters could pick up some coffee or breakfast/dinner during their commute. You could also offer a station to the residents of the Quayside area. And by extending it that far, you could potentially extend it further in the future down several potential routes, including across a future Fraser River Crossing, and use the line to bring commuters from Surrey into South Burnaby and Vancouver, especially if the Skytrain becomes too busy.
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  #648  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2011, 12:26 AM
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Originally Posted by BCPhil View Post
What is the point of this line? Who wants to go from condos in Kerrisdale to condos in Yaletown, and bypass downtown? Why spend the money on a Skytrain line that will require everyone on it to transfer to actually get anywhere interesting? The part of Yaletown you travel through is already done, so there is no possibility of ToD, and it doesn't take anyone who lives along it to a major employment center. It just skirts around the edge of downtown, being as far away from the CBD as possible, and horizontally connecting communities that want to travel to the hub. Honestly, who is going to ride this without transferring to Canada Line or Expo Line?
If I'm not mistaken, you stated yourself that there would be "a lot of demand" for it:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BCPhil View Post
I know that sounds sarcastic, but I'm actually pretty serious. I think there would be a lot of demand for travel from Kits and the West End into the CBD and Yaletown.
You make it seem like just because the routing goes down here that no one's going to be able to get anywhere and no one is going to want to use the line. that's ridiculous. It is definitely impossible to design a line that is going to get absolutely every rider to get to where they want to go with the best travel time, and at the best price/cost per taxpayer. In fact I find a routing like this might just be necessary; by splitting up transfer points in the downtown peninsula, you are avoiding severe overcrowding at one specific transfer point, i.e. Waterfront station. Even though the line does not directly traverse the CBD, I don't expect the lack of direct service to a certain area to create such a huge inconvenience for many users that it actually makes them not want to ride the line. At some point in one's average commute to the CBD, it is very likely that, no matter which line you take into downtown and where it takes you, your trip into downtown involves some extra walking, cycling, or using other modes of transit such as bus, once you get off the rapid transit line. A likely and common habit once this line is built would be to get off at the south end of Granville and then board a bus or walk to your destination; it would be likely a more comfortable experience than boarding another overcrowded rapid transit line (or in the case of an extension of the Expo Line down Hastings, having to share a train with loads of people who board at Waterfront and/or Burrard) and still having to walk/cycle to your destination again after getting off anyway. The time difference, as downtown is a clustered and tight area that is not only very walkable/cycling friendly but boasts an good street-level bus network in addition to rapid transit, would be very little.

It's not that there aren't any potential destinations that are along this line either. A transfer point at Stadium-Chinatown could be quite a great success and a great improvement to transit options to get into and out of that area. The same goes for the Vanier Park area, Yaletown area, and the western areas of the Broadway corridor. Whatever happened to the idea of connecting the Broadway corridor with a third line, esp. for the purpose of easing traffic on the Canada Line into that corridor? The line accomplishes this and fairly well.

The idea to route the line down false creek north was actually originally conceived by Canadian Mind (not me) and I rather like this idea, hence incorporating it into the line plan. Not that to take the line down Burrard or Denman, as suggested, would be less of a good idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BCPhil View Post
If you are going to make people transfer anyway to get to the CBD, this may as well be LRT and NOT cross False Creek. Just run trains at grade on the Arbutus ROW, under the Granville street bridge, and along the existing ROW along false creek. Then you make the connections for transfers at Arbutus (Broadway Line), Olympic Village (Canada Line), Main Street (Expo Line), and Hastings (Hastings Line), then turn towards Waterfront to bring commuters through Gastown or onto Coal Harbour (with a single ride) and save a lot of money.
I don't think Vancouver intends to repurpose its historic streetcar into something that would be so highly used for all different types of commutes, as you say. In San Francisco the high utilization of the historic streetcar by daily commuters, tourists, and the like, makes for lots of pass-ups and long waits before being able to even get on the tram, or a very uncomfortable standing-room-only ride, and this is a downer for everyone who happens to need to use this service.
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  #649  
Old Posted Aug 23, 2011, 4:50 AM
Toddlertoddy Toddlertoddy is offline
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http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?msa=0&...93,0.4319&z=12

Updated.

Edit: I kept the LRT on Scott Rd. because it passes by businesses and Nordel and it could be a alternate to the east part of the line.
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  #650  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2011, 7:27 AM
Vonny Vonny is offline
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A richmond Transit Plan

Here is a suggested new (budget neutral) Richmond Transit bus network



the rational for it can be found here

and the regional bus network (still budget neutral):

(with rational there)
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  #651  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2011, 8:17 AM
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I'm a particularly big fan of some of these route changes you propose they definitely make a lot of sense based on travel patterns, and it also very well centralizes Brighouse as Richmond's transit hub. Everything seems well balanced, and well studied. The 402 will be useful in the summer when the night market is open. Until recently travel to there relied on an apparent SPL bus (which I could never really find at Bridgeport) or an indirect ride on the 430. The use of split transit terminals (i.e. Crestwood as a 410/411/301 transfer point, as well as to make up for a loss of service in the area if the 410 were to regardless re-route onto the 91 and Nelson Rd exit) seem rather interesting. A reinstated bus link to the airport would IMO provide some decent redundancy, as well as a better link from Richmond.

Concerning the 410, recently I had the opportunity to make more observations about it again. Not too long ago I had reason to travel to and from the airport. I have a feeling that Translink seems to purposely screws up the route schedule on the 410 to make it seem unattractive from first person point of view and entice use of the Canada Line instead for travellers from the east. IMO, they're doing it wrong - the Canada Line needs some serious relief, while the 410 corridor could use some serious service improvement as well. Creation of a 411 or improvements otherwise to the 410 would benefit everybody.

Example: Thursday August 25th, I was bound for the airport with an arrival time of about 11AM. Trip westbound via Rte 91 took just 30 minutes to the transfer point at Aberdeen Centre, with busy on/off movement in the east Richmond section - actual scheduled time was 42 minutes. (I was initially going to take the 100 and transfer at Marine Drive, but unlucky me, it had just left the bus stop as soon as I arrived at 22nd st - a 410 on the other hand was already waiting).

The return trip, however, at around 6:30PM (after doing some shopping in Richmond), was nothing short of terrible. It was a via Fraserwood, no problem. But jeez, the bus driver had a way of really taking it SLOW for the entire trip! It honestly felt like she was going down Westminster Hwy at just 30km/h. There was a very decent lineup of cars in the rightmost lane just zooming past us on the Queensborough Bridge. Being not in a hurry, I didn't bother complaining (good opportunity for a nap if I was tired ). The timing turned out to be perfect - 42 minutes for a 43 minute scheduled trip, but the trip could have obviously been much faster. She had to go THAT SLOW just to meet the schedules. There's obviously something wrong here. Of course there would have been delays before when the bus would become stuck at lineups approaching Nelson Road on the eastbound Westminster Highway (lineups I have seen before riding westbound 410s) - however, with the opening of the new Nelson Rd interchange, this should now have been addressed, and the 410 should be making more trips with a closer to half-hour schedule. By the time the 410 returns to eastbound 91 service, rush hour delays should have dissipated - this was true for I observed a moving Rte 91 corridor on my eastbound trip.

As for ridership patterns, I noticed a definite pattern of commute in between 22nd and Richmond. The busiest portion of the 410 seems to be the portion along Cambie Street in east Richmond. Although there are still a significant amount of regional commuters past there, this is faded compared to the traffic on Cambie.

Last edited by xd_1771; Sep 2, 2011 at 8:38 AM.
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  #652  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2012, 1:24 AM
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is this forum dead?
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  #653  
Old Posted Jan 8, 2012, 1:35 AM
trofirhen trofirhen is online now
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That's what I'd like to know. Much of what goes into the transit discussion thread could well use elaborating visually here, as well as anyone's concept of transit in Vancouver. This thread has been neglected too long
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  #654  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2012, 3:57 PM
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We could eventually build a skytrain on main st.
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  #655  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2012, 6:22 PM
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Personally I'd like to see some sort of rapid transit from Metrotown Station to Brentwood Station via Willingdon in the future. I think there is enough demand as the busses are always packed, BCIT, the office builings and the Casino are there, and then of course there are the booming developments at both ends. The line could go north to Hastings and then West to downtown too.

I know that there is no money for this, but this is the fantasy thread!
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  #656  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2012, 7:48 PM
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Originally Posted by fredinno View Post
We could eventually build a skytrain on main st.
If it was not for the VGH complex, Skytrain may have been better off going down Main ST. where there is probably more of a transit demographic, and in the East Side in general. Eventually I`d like to see a line down Arbutus tying in to Downtown and an extension of the Expo Line going up Main St., then heading east on Kingsway, then south on Victoria Dr. to Marine. This would put most people in the CoV within, at most, 2 km away from a train station.

If we ever get Paris like densities along Main St. then we could get our own line.
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  #657  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2012, 8:11 PM
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Originally Posted by red-paladin View Post
Personally I'd like to see some sort of rapid transit from Metrotown Station to Brentwood Station via Willingdon in the future. I think there is enough demand as the busses are always packed, BCIT, the office builings and the Casino are there, and then of course there are the booming developments at both ends. The line could go north to Hastings and then West to downtown too.

I know that there is no money for this, but this is the fantasy thread!
I don't know if it could be done with Skytrain.. at least not easily. The grade gets quite steep up Willingdon towards Metrotown, not to mention the need for a portal in the area to meet up with the main line.. can't really see an LRT either for the same reasons.
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  #658  
Old Posted Jan 22, 2012, 8:29 PM
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Originally Posted by GeeCee View Post
I don't know if it could be done with Skytrain.. at least not easily. The grade gets quite steep up Willingdon towards Metrotown, not to mention the need for a portal in the area to meet up with the main line.. can't really see an LRT either for the same reasons.
I'd would think Willingdon would be great for BRT or maybe some double-decker buses?
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  #659  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2012, 1:06 AM
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I'd would think Willingdon would be great for BRT or maybe some double-decker buses?
How about a gondola system similar to what was proposed for SFU? Connecting Brentwood, BCIT and Metrotown. With all those elevation changes and limited space that could be a nice fit...

Although I always pictured this segment (Metrotown to Brentwood) being a part of much larger circular line that would connect to Hastings, Downtown, Kits, down Arbutus and than back east on 41st or 49th back to Metrotown.

Like this http://tinyurl.com/6twudoe

Last edited by WBC; Jan 23, 2012 at 1:18 AM.
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  #660  
Old Posted Jan 23, 2012, 4:55 AM
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It would be cheaper to move the whole BCIT campus to an existing transit line (e.g. False Creek Flats) than to build a new transit line to the existing BCIT campus...
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