Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[deasine]

Metro Vancouver Transit

Welcome to the Metro Vancouver Thread at SSP. Here you will find information regarding on the transit updates in Vancouver that do not belong in other specific threads. Latest updates will be posted here.

[agrant]

I saw it. Ha! I knew there was something wrong with the honour system here. The losses are in the millions each year apparently - due most to people not paying fines.

[squeezied]

if i remember correctly, its a loss of 6mill each year

[mr.x]

omg...i never realized there were that many fines handed out each year - and i was extremely surprised at how just a tiny fraction of those that were fined actually payed their fine.

regardless of operational and capital costs, i'm all for fare gates.


GlobalBC data:

2006
- 30,300 fines issued
- 2,600 paid
- 400 partially paid
- 24,600 not paid


2007 (as of this month)
- 1,800 paid
- 100 partially paid
- 12,100 not paid
- at $150 a fine, that means $5.5 million is not going to Translink



But when will it be done? They say "in a few months", so i'm assuming that means it'll be announced in the next few months...hopefully, done by 2010.

[djh]

Wasn't it just a few months ago that everybody here was arguing that the honour system was so great and that very few people would jump the system? Didn't some nutbar argue that we should give free transit rides to the homeless so that they wouldn't feel the need to do B&Es to get the ticket fare?

And now, all of a sudden, everybody's saying we need gates? Plus, yet again, a bunch of bureaucrats are flying half-way around the world to see how something common sense works?

Like I've said all along, we need gates on Transit, or else people will inevitably scam the system. Now you have statistics to prove what is common sense, so hey, I guess what I said all along must be true now?

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by djh

Wasn't it just a few months ago that everybody here was arguing that the honour system was so great and that very few people would jump the system? Didn't some nutbar argue that we should give free transit rides to the homeless so that they wouldn't feel the need to do B&Es to get the ticket fare?

And now, all of a sudden, everybody's saying we need gates? Plus, yet again, a bunch of bureaucrats are flying half-way around the world to see how something common sense works?

Like I've said all along, we need gates on Transit, or else people will inevitably scam the system. Now you have statistics to prove what is common sense, so hey, I guess what I said all along must be true now?

The thing is I don't think anyone knew the statistics, especially the statistic of people who didn't pay their fines! We all knew about the cost to the system of those who didn't pay their fares. I would've thought that there is already some sort of fine to not paying your fine - like having the police knock on your door, going to jail, etc. I also didn't think fake names was such an issue, that the transit officers had a palm pilot or something to check on the name of the fare evader.

Our opinions were based on a Translink study that found there was not enough fare evasion to make fare gates worthwhile - that the operational cost of fare gates was greater than the cost of fare evasion.

[squeezied]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

omg...i never realized there were that many fines handed out each year - and i was extremely surprised at how just a tiny fraction of those that were fined actually payed their fine.

regardless of operational and capital costs, i'm all for fare gates.


GlobalBC data:

2006
- 30,300 fines issued
- 2,600 paid
- 400 partially paid
- 24,600 not paid


2007 (as of this month)
- 1,800 paid
- 100 partially paid
- 12,100 not paid
- at $150 a fine, that means $5.5 million is not going to Translink



But when will it be done? They say "in a few months", so i'm assuming that means it'll be announced in the next few months...hopefully, done by 2010.

wait, so that's the sum from ppl not paying their fines? imagine the amount from those who evade and are not caught!

[mr.x]

^ those are the sums of people fined and the sum of those were were fined and did not pay their fine.

the fact is, fines don't work unless they are enforced. i.e. would you pay a commercial fine to Impark because "you parked your car in their lot and walked off the property"?

[en2]

Originally Posted by deasine

looks like we dont' have a thread... or at least I didn't see one. Mr. X made one for SSC so why not have one for SCP:

Anyway, Global TV has had a report on the number of SkyTrain cheats using our SkyTrain system. Minister of Transportation, Kevin Falcon, will be going to Britain to look at their transportation system and to take their good elements and put it in our SkyTrain system, specifically their system of cracking down fare evaders and their smart card, Oyster.

According to the Global report, our SkyTrain system will see:
*New Gated Entrances for SkyTrain system (not sure if it is turnstile)
*Modeled on "Oyster Card" (I still question why not Octopus Card, it's much more sucessful)
*Private company to build the facilities (I'm guessing building the expansion of SkyTrain stations because most stations don't have room for a gate.., such as 29th Avenue...)
*New system carckdown on fare evaders

I highly advise all of u to watch it on globaltvbc.com: SkyTrain ticket cheats.

Before the Canada Line was built, didn't a whole bunch of government officals go to London to "observe" their system.....

And then we ended up building a line with 50m platforms and no gated entrances for the stations...

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by en2

Before the Canada Line was built, didn't a whole bunch of government officals go to London to "observe" their system.....

And then we ended up building a line with 50m platforms and no gated entrances for the stations...

Yea, but the end product was a funding issue.


Richmond officials visited a bunch of speed skating ovals before designing their own.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by en2

Before the Canada Line was built, didn't a whole bunch of government officals go to London to "observe" their system.....

And then we ended up building a line with 50m platforms and no gated entrances for the stations...

Well at least the Canada Line stations are built to include fare gates unlike the Expo Line =.="

But yes 50 m will be a problem... hopefully there will be a solution to this and let's not begin the debate of whether platforms are long enough XD XD XD

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by djh

Wasn't it just a few months ago that everybody here was arguing that the honour system was so great and that very few people would jump the system? Didn't some nutbar argue that we should give free transit rides to the homeless so that they wouldn't feel the need to do B&Es to get the ticket fare?

And now, all of a sudden, everybody's saying we need gates? Plus, yet again, a bunch of bureaucrats are flying half-way around the world to see how something common sense works?

Like I've said all along, we need gates on Transit, or else people will inevitably scam the system. Now you have statistics to prove what is common sense, so hey, I guess what I said all along must be true now?

That nutbar was me and I stick to my point. Turnstiles are a waste of money because the same result can be accomplished with the stroke of a pen, and not only the same result but a better result. Kind of like building toll booths to reduce overall car use are a waste of money since the same result and even a better result can be achieved simply through raising gas prices.

I wish more people were into sociology, psychology and economics. These are some of the most underrated fields in our society and a person with these skills would be a 100 times more valuable then some engineer or architect, unfortunately people are designed to recognize physical solutions to problems such as arresting people, building walls, blowing things up etc. And common sense, ha, don't even go there as the common sense is as much of a draw back to humanity as it is a benefit. See common sense is not necessarily based on facts but rather the belief that the common person believes that. Now I don't want to get in to a big discussion about this but im sure you see the problem with common sense. Anyways il cut this of know because im to tired to think.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by mr.x2

^ those are the sums of people fined and the sum of those were were fined and did not pay their fine.

the fact is, fines don't work unless they are enforced. i.e. would you pay a commercial fine to Impark because "you parked your car in their lot and walked off the property"?

They are enforced and if you have a fine then you cant get a drivers license among other things. These numbers don't show two things,

A) a majority of these fines are held by very few. In other words out of all the people who have fines the top few percent hold the majority of the unpaid fines. These people don't pay, will never pay, and cant pay.
B) a majority of these fines that have been paid are paid by people who by paying these fines have payed more towards transit then they would have have they not gotten the fine.
C)So for 2007 this month the fines collected, $311,000 while all the fines given out represented $30,000 worth of unpaid trips. So if they catch 10% of all the fares evaded then they are actually profiting. If not then they just need to tweak with the fine amount, patrols, and enforcement of fine collection until they balance their numbers.
D)I feel like explaining this is a lost cause

[twoNeurons]

not a lost cause. Actually, I find it interesting. I don't know if or how it would work politically, but I do find it interesting.

[deasine]

I think we are getting a little ahed of ourselves. I clearly stated that they are implementing a form of gates and not turnstiles (or not just yet). Either way, the current system we have is not fit for smart card users. If we impement the smart card system and continue to have the proof-of-payment system, it's going to be a little hard to enforce. Let's say I have a smart card and just walk on the SkyTrain. If a transit police or SkyTrain attendant asks me for my fare, I'll show him/her my Smart card. Then I will be fine without actually paying. Then there are two different solutions to this:

1) "Gate" system with attendants monitoring this so that smart card users are forced to scan their cards. Then smart card users are forced to scan their cards before entering the fare boundary. This works for paper fare users as well. The same can be said for turnstiles.
2) Keep the same system with MORE SkyTrain attendants, MORE Transit police and have them at all stations at all times to check fares. And have them carry a mini device that can scan Smart cards to see if one has scaned their card before the station.

I would love to keep the proof-of-payment system if we didn't have so many fare evaders.

[mr.x]

TransLink funding formula short of funds, critics say
Revenue stops pumping if drivers stop pumping gas

Frank Luba, The Province
Published: Friday, October 26, 2007

A new plan to change the way TransLink operates leaves the regional transportation authority short of money, critics charge.

Eric Doherty of the Society Promoting Environmental Conservation says Bill 43, which was introduced in the legislature Tuesday and was debated again yesterday, keeps TransLink dependent on gas taxes -- along with transit fares and property tax.

"The funding formula for the new TransLink basically makes it impossible to reach the transit target that [Premier] Gordon Campbell has said they need to reach," says Doherty of the goal of having 25 per cent of all trips in the region taken by transit.

Only about 11 to 12 per cent of all trips in the region are currently made by transit and fares only cover 50 per cent of transit's operating cost.

Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon has said the new model guarantees stable planning and funding.

Meanwhile, B.C. Federation of Labour president Jim Sinclair disagrees with the replacement of TransLink's current 12-member board of municipal politicians with nine industry professionals.

"It's been apparent through the past year that Transportation Minister Kevin Falcon's ultimate goal is to take local input and control out of transportation and install a hand-picked board that will enact a Liberal agenda with no questions asked," Sinclair said yesterday.

The new nine-member board will be selected from a shortlist of 15 candidates provided to mayors in the region by a screening panel.

Doherty is also concerned that the new legislation makes only TransLink's annual general meeting open to the public.

"I'm concerned that TransLink will be basically inaccessible to the public," he says.

fluba@png.canwest.com

[en2]

Originally Posted by cornholio

That nutbar was me and I stick to my point. Turnstiles are a waste of money because the same result can be accomplished with the stroke of a pen, and not only the same result but a better result. Kind of like building toll booths to reduce overall car use are a waste of money since the same result and even a better result can be achieved simply through raising gas prices.

Fare gates do add a perception of safety and if all stations were manned like in so many other proper Metro systems in the world, SkyTrain's reputation as a crime magnet would almost certainly decrease. Plus you could actually get accurate numbers on ridership.

Even in Japan, which is the safest country in the world, all systems have fare gates in them.

[officedweller]

Remember that Translink doesn't get the money collected for fines - under the provincial legislation, the money goes to the Province as general revenue - NOT to Translink. So Translink has no incentive to spend money to collect the fines.
Remember that almost all light rail systems are proof of purchase/fare paid zones. That includes Docklands Light Railway and Portland MAX. Even the Red Line Subway in Los Angeles is proof of purchase.

[Holden West]

Translink executives rack up $154,000 in car expenses

Last Updated: Thursday, November 1, 2007 | 11:20 AM ET

CBC News

Executives of Greater Vancouver's transportation authority spent more than $154,000 on car expenses in 2006, according to documents obtained by CBC News under the Freedom of Information Act.
The documents break down car-related expenses into five categories:

• Gas usage.
• Car insurance.
• Car repair and maintenance.
• Car allowance.
• Car lease.

There are 14 members on Translink's executive team, including CEO Patricia Jacobson, who racked up the biggest bill.
Jacobson spent $2,345 on gas, $1,872 on insurance, $1,570 on repair maintenance as well as $8,354 on the lease for her Subaru Outback — for a grand total of $14,142.
Chief officer Robert Kind ranked second, spending $13,491 in total. He used $3,105 on gas and $2,072 on car insurance.
Director of communications Ken Hardie ran up the third-highest bill. Hardie doesn't lease; instead he receives a car allowance of $6,600. Including gas, repairs and insurance, he spent $13,432 keeping his 1997 Chrysler Cirrus on the road.
Jacobson isn't making any apologies for the fact that the publically-funded Translink subsidizes car use by its executives.

She told CBC News on Wednesday it's a taxable benefit on par with what any other organization or corporation might offer and that the executives need their cars.
"We're a regional transportation authority," she said. "The executives are travelling all over the region through 22 different municipalities. They use both transit and vehicles.
"It's a claimable deductions so it isn't all of their expenses, but they need to have the mobility of having both transit and car driving," she said.
Jacobson said the unfortunate reality is that people can't get everywhere they need to go in the Lower Mainland by transit.

[deasine]

I have no comments........ maybe TransLink executives should start switching to hybrid cars...