Transit Fantasies

[Migrant_Coconut]

Suggestion: instead of Gladys, maybe run the east segment down McCallum and have one branch each to UFV and Abbotsford Village (eventually Lower Sumas)?

[JS04]

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

This is an idea for rapid transit in Abbotsford that came about as part of my work on regional rail. The idea is to have a central elevated corridor through Abbotsford that would serve both rapid transit and regional rail with hubs at Clearbrook and Abbotsford Central.

I love it, but I'd have it go straight down McCallum maybe with a stop in between.
Im assuming its not skytrain technology because it shares track with regional rail right?

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Suggestion: instead of Gladys, maybe run the east segment down McCallum and have one branch each to UFV and Abbotsford Village (eventually Lower Sumas)?

That's an interesting idea. I guess you could have a station at the park and at Marshall. The challenge I see is that McCallum is fairly narrow but it does provide a more direct route to the Abbotsford Centre and UFV.

Originally Posted by JS04

I love it, but I'd have it go straight down McCallum maybe with a stop in between.
Im assuming its not skytrain technology because it shares track with regional rail right?

Correct. It would be automated but not Skytrain.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

That's an interesting idea. I guess you could have a station at the park and at Marshall. The challenge I see is that McCallum is fairly narrow but it does provide a more direct route to the Abbotsford Centre and UFV.

I imagine that by the time Abbotsford Rapid Transit finally becomes a thing, the west side of the street will be densifying - adding a setback for the viaduct ahead of time should give it the extra room it needs.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Gave Victoria a metro; darker segments are grade-separated, lighter ones aren't.

[Helvetia]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Gave Victoria a metro; darker segments are grade-separated, lighter ones aren't.

What are the dashed orange and blue lines?

[mcj]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Gave Victoria a metro; darker segments are grade-separated, lighter ones aren't.

Does the blue line extend to the airport/Swartz Bay?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Helvetia

What are the dashed orange and blue lines?

Potential future lines that I'm not really sure about but seem like they match up with the current FTN.

Originally Posted by mcj

Does the blue line extend to the airport/Swartz Bay?

You know it.

[chowhou]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Gave Victoria a metro; darker segments are grade-separated, lighter ones aren't.

For the darker segments of the red line, I assume grade separated means above grade through Esquimalt, but I also assume it means below grade through Victoria. How do you propose to do the transition? (Assuming that's what you mean)

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by chowhou

For the darker segments of the red line, I assume grade separated means above grade through Esquimalt, but I also assume it means below grade through Victoria. How do you propose to do the transition? (Assuming that's what you mean)

Doesn't really matter to me - all I know is that there's one too many crossings for at-grade rail to work. Worth noting that the E&N runs through a park though, and the Esquimalt Nation will probably want their surface rights back, so I figure Red will have to duck into a tunnel somewhere around Helmcken; YMMV on whether it should stay there or briefly go elevated again until Victoria West.

Though I suppose if that segment is tunneled, then it doesn't need that weird bend...

[Helvetia]

I tried making a new SkyTrain line to connect Surrey to Burnaby. The aims of this line were to:

• Build a second rail crossing across the Fraser River to increase transit service resiliency (there were massive service reductions in 2022 when the SkyBridge was out of service)
• Make it easier for commuters to go from Surrey to Coquitlam or SFU Burnaby (the current transfer at Columbia is neither comfortable nor convenient, as you need to go to New West before heading north)
• Increase capacity along Scott Road

The one assumption I made was that:

• The Millennium Line was modified so trains can now go to Waterfront (using Expo Line tracks west of Commercial-Broadway) - I’ll get back to this later.

Bearing those guidelines in mind, let me walk through the alignment I proposed, from south to north.



The line starts at Newton Exchange to connect with a future Newton-Guildford SkyTrain. It then heads west along 72 Avenue until reaching Scott Road (120 Street). This section features a wide road with centre median strips, so an elevated guideway seems possible. At Scott Road, the line makes a sharp turn to face north and continues northward until 99 Avenue. This vertical section does not have as wide roads, since there aren’t many centre median strips, so underground tunnels seem mandatory.

Around 99 Avenue, the line pops out of a tunnel (if underground) and follows the tracks of the Southern Railway of British Columbia until Old Yale Road (see https://rac.jmaponline.net/canadianrailatlas/ for exact track alignment). The gradient here is less harsh than if you remain on Scott Road and while I’m not sure exactly what value it is, it has to be fairly mild like 1.5% for the freight train tracks to be usable.



Moving on, the line intersects Scott Road SkyTrain station, either on the surface or underground. It then continues north, maybe along 125A Street before crossing the Fraser River using the all-new SkyBridge II. It crosses industrial lands before intersecting the Expo Line before Braid station at a new wye.



As seen from the first picture, this line would effectively take over the Expo Line tracks for its Production Way-University leg. There would be trains headed to Newton from both Columbia and Production Way-University. Assuming the Millennium Line service between Commercial-Broadway and Waterfront is established, Surrey commuters would not suffer too much time wasted if they took the Millennium Line from Production Way-University to Waterfront, so the burden on the Expo Line would potentially reduce.

Anyway I'm not 100% satisfied with the alignment (could probably shift the bridge further to the east to cross the river at a narrower point, also didn't finalize any station locations along 72 Ave or Scott Road) but I'd appreciate constructive criticism.

[trofirhen]

Given the way Surrey is expanding and growing so rapidly into the second city on the Lower Mainland, I think your idea is timely and very good. Traffic <> Surrey is going to grow enormously in the near future.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Maybe shift it west, closer to the other bridges? Then you can cut out that Sapperton branch altogether.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Helvetia

I tried making a new SkyTrain line to connect Surrey to Burnaby.

The section south of 99th and Scott would have to be underground to have any hope of continuing north of there.

I'd suggest terminating the line at Scottsdale Exchange - not because 72nd isn't busy (it very much is) but because Skytrain (and any other rail for that matter) does not do 90 degree turns well. Look at the maps - TransLink has very much gone out of their way to avoid sharp turns as much as possible. I'm not entirely sure you'd be able to do that at 72nd without limiting any future towers.

The rail line you suggest following is still in use so I doubt there's much hope of adding elevated Skytrain along that not terribly wide corridor - although you're right the grade is much better than following Scott Rd. There's a topographical map here.

The location of bridges is on the narrowest sections - and you've picked one of the widest for yours. So I really can't see it continuing over the Fraser. Also in their future planning TransLink has penciled in a highway coach (aka not many stops) route - it'll presumably start at Surrey Central, then Guildford and across the Port Mann, and then north to Coquitlam Central Station.

[fredinno]

Is the track elevated?

Also, I don't know if you really need a 2nd skybridge. Skytrain tracks are not capacity-limited by headways on the tracks themselves, but from loading speeds on the stations.
You can pack a *lot* of trains onto a single dual-track rail bridge, even with 60s frequencies on the Expo.

Also, the Skybridge has a rail between the 2 Skytrain rail lines I presume is used for maintenance. Maybe that could be dug up and converted into a Skytrain track?

[Migrant_Coconut]

99% sure the SkyBridge only accepts southbound traffic from the Columbia direction, and that converting that section into a wye is another fantasy in itself.

[fredinno]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

99% sure the SkyBridge only accepts southbound traffic from the Columbia direction, and that converting that section into a wye is another fantasy in itself.

Actually, I'm thinking of adding a separate set of tracks and platforms to Columbia so that the Skytrain can pick up passengers and reverse direction towards Braid.

Port Moody commissioned a preliminary study to build a new station on Douglas Street by building an entirely new set of tracks next to the existing Skytrain instead of using the Queen Street location (so they could catch buses from Barnet Hwy and North Road more easily, and so they could get passengers from Seaview.)
Being underground complicates things though.

[Migrant_Coconut]

At that point they might as well run Scott/Newton directly to Lougheed and make Columbia-Production a shuttle route (i.e. there, back, repeat, return to Edmonds depot at end of service day). Reversed direction lines suck for everybody involved.

[Helvetia]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Maybe shift it west, closer to the other bridges? Then you can cut out that Sapperton branch altogether.

Keeping the Columbia branch allows for a second transfer station, that is more convenient for New West-Coquitlam travellers, whereas Scott Road is better for Surrey-Coquitlam travellers.

Originally Posted by Sheba

I'd suggest terminating the line at Scottsdale Exchange - not because 72nd isn't busy (it very much is) but because Skytrain (and any other rail for that matter) does not do 90 degree turns well.

Yes, I would prefer that as well. I took inspiration from the R1/future Newton-Guildford Line which features a hard 90 degree turn at 104 Ave (though I think this would probably have to be significantly smoothed out).

Originally Posted by Sheba

Also in their future planning TransLink has penciled in a highway coach (aka not many stops) route - it'll presumably start at Surrey Central, then Guildford and across the Port Mann, and then north to Coquitlam Central Station.

Ah I didn't know about that. Well if the ridership is considerable, perhaps an upgrade to rail is possible in the far future

Originally Posted by fredinno

Is the track elevated?
Also, I don't know if you really need a 2nd skybridge.

Elevated along 72 Ave (between Newton and Strawberry Hill) and north of 99 Ave all the way until Braid.

The second bridge is mainly for redundancy. The capacity on the existing bridge may be fine for today and the next decade, but I'm not convinced it would suffice if additional train service is established to Guildford/Newton/Scottsdale.

Once the Broadway subway is complete, even if the Expo Line out of downtown is busted, you (as an Expo or M-Line commuter) can take the Canada Line, transfer to the M-Line, and arrive at Commercial-Broadway to continue your trip. Currently, if you want to go to Surrey/Langley and the SkyBridge is out of service... no such alternatives exist.

[cganuelas1995]

Originally Posted by Helvetia

I tried making a new SkyTrain line to connect Surrey to Burnaby. The aims of this line were to:

• Build a second rail crossing across the Fraser River to increase transit service resiliency (there were massive service reductions in 2022 when the SkyBridge was out of service)
• Make it easier for commuters to go from Surrey to Coquitlam or SFU Burnaby (the current transfer at Columbia is neither comfortable nor convenient, as you need to go to New West before heading north)
• Increase capacity along Scott Road

The one assumption I made was that:

• The Millennium Line was modified so trains can now go to Waterfront (using Expo Line tracks west of Commercial-Broadway) - I’ll get back to this later.

Bearing those guidelines in mind, let me walk through the alignment I proposed, from south to north.



The line starts at Newton Exchange to connect with a future Newton-Guildford SkyTrain. It then heads west along 72 Avenue until reaching Scott Road (120 Street). This section features a wide road with centre median strips, so an elevated guideway seems possible. At Scott Road, the line makes a sharp turn to face north and continues northward until 99 Avenue. This vertical section does not have as wide roads, since there aren’t many centre median strips, so underground tunnels seem mandatory.

Around 99 Avenue, the line pops out of a tunnel (if underground) and follows the tracks of the Southern Railway of British Columbia until Old Yale Road (see https://rac.jmaponline.net/canadianrailatlas/ for exact track alignment). The gradient here is less harsh than if you remain on Scott Road and while I’m not sure exactly what value it is, it has to be fairly mild like 1.5% for the freight train tracks to be usable.



Moving on, the line intersects Scott Road SkyTrain station, either on the surface or underground. It then continues north, maybe along 125A Street before crossing the Fraser River using the all-new SkyBridge II. It crosses industrial lands before intersecting the Expo Line before Braid station at a new wye.



As seen from the first picture, this line would effectively take over the Expo Line tracks for its Production Way-University leg. There would be trains headed to Newton from both Columbia and Production Way-University. Assuming the Millennium Line service between Commercial-Broadway and Waterfront is established, Surrey commuters would not suffer too much time wasted if they took the Millennium Line from Production Way-University to Waterfront, so the burden on the Expo Line would potentially reduce.

Anyway I'm not 100% satisfied with the alignment (could probably shift the bridge further to the east to cross the river at a narrower point, also didn't finalize any station locations along 72 Ave or Scott Road) but I'd appreciate constructive criticism.

That map should really include the Langley extension