CHICAGO | General Discussions

[Tombstoner]

Originally Posted by Zapatan

That's insane, that could easily be 1-2 million in NY or California.

Kind of hard to say unless you see the property in question. It could be an amazing deal (and I hope for SIGSEGV it was) but there are a number of Loop properties that are poorly located/no view/need extensive rehab/no amenities, etc. Good for future investment, perhaps... Something for 1-2M in a nice part of LA or NYC you could expect a very turnkey 850-1050 sqft. As marothisu says, there are certainly insanely overpriced properties in NYC, but it's not like Chicago is 75% cheaper.

[marothisu]

Originally Posted by Tombstoner

Kind of hard to say unless you see the property in question. It could be an amazing deal (and I hope for SIGSEGV it was) but there are a number of Loop properties that are poorly located/no view/need extensive rehab/no amenities, etc. Good for future investment, perhaps... Something for 1-2M in a nice part of LA or NYC you could expect a very turnkey 850-1050 sqft. As marothisu says, there are certainly insanely overpriced properties in NYC, but it's not like Chicago is 75% cheaper.

I was only talking about downtown, the most expensive part of Chicago (on average). Chicago is actually pretty much 50% or more cheaper than NYC anywhere you look no matter what. Literally a 3 bedroom in downtown Chicago is cheaper than the 1 bedrooms next to us here. Also the HOA prices on average in NYC are way higher than in Chicago so that needs to be factored in.

How about this $800K 2/1 in Chelsea with a $1700/mo HOA? Not very nice though with some character, a virtually non existent kitchen, and small with absolutely no view of anything:
https://www.realtor.com/realestatean...1_M38522-29800

By contrast, I can get a 1350 sq ft 2/2 in Lincoln Park just a few miles north of downtown basically right next to Lincoln Park with a much better view for $299K with a $975 HOA. You could spend $100K renovating this place and it would still be half the sale price as the Chelsea one above.

https://www.realtor.com/realestatean...4_M85860-62577

So let's contrast to some place not in Manhattan. How about this 1200 sq ft 2/2 in Forest Hills, Queens for $719K with a $1533 HOA. This is 9 miles east, in Queens, to Bryant Park in Manahttan:
https://www.realtor.com/realestatean...5_M43495-08187

[the urban politician]

^ Are you sure you want to move back to Chicago?

It’s 9 degrees outside!

9!!

[marothisu]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ Are you sure you want to move back to Chicago?

It’s 9 degrees outside!

9!!

Hmmm, maybe not. Jk. Eh, not like it's like that most days my wife and I both grew up in places that are a bit colder than Chicago... we are talking about places where the average low temps in winter are barely above 0, but below 0 is completely normal with nobody complaining. I had the pleasure of being there in China last January (during COVID-19) where the highs were in the negatives every day. We've both softened a bit but will be fine

[SamInTheLoop]

^^ Not a small point. People sometimes lose sight of the obvious in terms of analyzing why certain metros continue to see such outmigration. What is probably the single most important reason Chicago's (and many other northern clime metros) demographics struggle?

It's not complicated.

This is something that plays out over many, many decades (and there are of course many other factors - going both ways - mixed in) and is still happening.

And, the inverse is also true - what is one of the single most important factors in strong inmigration trends in many metros across the southern half of the US - weather......and, very importantly, air conditioning. Yes - believe it or not, the advent of AC is after all this time, still a significant factor in regional migration trends within the US. Kinda crazy yet......duh.

[SamInTheLoop]

Originally Posted by ardecila

I think people recognize there are a lot of benefits to living in the Loop but a lot of hassles, too. Most residential buildings don't have parking. The streets tend to be pretty quiet at night which can be eerie to some. Congestion and noise are pretty bad. The streets are concrete canyons, with very little green. Summer festivals and political protests can be very disruptive.

Yes, clearly Loop living is not for everyone. I certainly understand why some folks would never do it. For me, it was the best. The convenience, living amidst a true mix of uses and activities, the buzz of special events - parades, marathons (although not Loop specific), the marches, protests, concerts, the arts, institutions, commerce, government, retail, entertainment, dining, parks, river, lake and yes residential. I liked all of it. The walking to work and literally everywhere else, and the lack of parking (well, cheap parking anyway!....to me this was also a positive). And, a steady increase in evening activity with continually increasing residential and hotel development. I think much of the Central and Eastern Loop is extraordinarily well-positioned for decades of continued residential, hotel, foot traffic and 24/7ish growth....or at least 18-20/7 - I don't see late night clubs joining the mix. And I truly think residential really is among the highest and best uses (with some competition certainly) for a lot of this real estate.

[sentinel]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ Are you sure you want to move back to Chicago?

It’s 9 degrees outside!

9!!

There's a very very thin margin separating Chicago weather from that of NYC, Boston, Philly, DC, Toronto, etc, during this time of year, especially usually these usual 2-3 weeks each year. Just sayin'. Marothisu has lived here before, he knows the drill lol

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

What a smoking deal!

2 beds with low HOA in the freaking loop for under $300K!?!

Chicago really is the best big city in america to be a regular guy.

Well to be fair, "low" is relative (this is still ~$500), but definitely on the low side for a high-rise. There's no gym or dog spa, but we'll survive. Probably the biggest drawback is if we ever get a car in the future, the building has no parking so we'd have to pay $$ for a loop garage spot.

And the previous owner redid the wood floors / walls/ appliances not too long ago. Doubt we'll have to do any significant work in the next 5 years.

But yeah, the point is that there are deals to be found right now, both for rent and sale.

[SamInTheLoop]

Originally Posted by sentinel

There's a very very thin margin separating Chicago weather from that of NYC, Boston, Philly, DC, Toronto, etc, during this time of year, especially usually these usual 2-3 weeks each year. Just sayin'. Marothisu has lived here before, he knows the drill lol

Whoooaaa hold on now. There's quite a difference between NY, Philly, & DC winters and Chicago. True cold snaps (let alone polar vortices sp?) are typically much more severe and lengthy across the upper midwest than the mid-atlantic and a lot of the northeast (my ancestral homelands). It's just the Atlantic Ocean/Gulf Stream effect. Boston is a little closer certainly but still not as cold.....and then Toronto would be more comparable.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop

Whoooaaa hold on now. There's quite a difference between NY, Philly, & DC winters and Chicago. True cold snaps (let alone polar vortices sp?) are typically much more severe and lengthy across the upper midwest than the mid-atlantic and a lot of the northeast (my ancestral homelands). It's just the Atlantic Ocean/Gulf Stream effect. Boston is a little closer certainly but still not as cold.....and then Toronto would be more comparable.

Yeah, Boston rarely gets below 0 F though. But it gets a lot more snow.

Anyway, highrises are great for winter. Central heating (usually) and someone else shovels the snow.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by marothisu

I was only talking about downtown, the most expensive part of Chicago (on average). Chicago is actually pretty much 50% or more cheaper than NYC anywhere you look no matter what. Literally a 3 bedroom in downtown Chicago is cheaper than the 1 bedrooms next to us here. Also the HOA prices on average in NYC are way higher than in Chicago so that needs to be factored in.

How about this $800K 2/1 in Chelsea with a $1700/mo HOA? Not very nice though with some character, a virtually non existent kitchen, and small with absolutely no view of anything:
https://www.realtor.com/realestatean...1_M38522-29800

By contrast, I can get a 1350 sq ft 2/2 in Lincoln Park just a few miles north of downtown basically right next to Lincoln Park with a much better view for $299K with a $975 HOA. You could spend $100K renovating this place and it would still be half the sale price as the Chelsea one above.

https://www.realtor.com/realestatean...4_M85860-62577

So let's contrast to some place not in Manhattan. How about this 1200 sq ft 2/2 in Forest Hills, Queens for $719K with a $1533 HOA. This is 9 miles east, in Queens, to Bryant Park in Manahttan:
https://www.realtor.com/realestatean...5_M43495-08187

I've been telling people this for weeks now......

And yes, Chicago's winters suck, but if you are already in DC/NY, I think you won't be bothered by it too much. Here in Denver, our prices continue to go through the roof because of extreme issues with under-supply. Here's a recent article discussing how bad it's getting in Denver (https://www.westword.com/news/denver...-year-11892826), where the average selling price for a SFH is now $629k. That average number has gone up $100k in the past year. So, when I see 2-bdr in Lincoln Park for $299k.... It definitely captures my attention.

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by twister244

I've been telling people this for weeks now......

And yes, Chicago's winters suck, but if you are already in DC/NY, I think you won't be bothered by it too much. Here in Denver, our prices continue to go through the roof because of extreme issues with under-supply. Here's a recent article discussing how bad it's getting in Denver (https://www.westword.com/news/denver...-year-11892826), where the average selling price for a SFH is now $629k. That average number has gone up $100k in the past year. So, when I see 2-bdr in Lincoln Park for $299k.... It definitely captures my attention.

Denver doesn't have great winters either, other than the fact that you don't have to go far to ski.

I went to a wedding in Denver in I think it was April and it snowed a shit ton.

[Investing In Chicago]

Originally Posted by marothisu

I was only talking about downtown, the most expensive part of Chicago (on average). Chicago is actually pretty much 50% or more cheaper than NYC anywhere you look no matter what. Literally a 3 bedroom in downtown Chicago is cheaper than the 1 bedrooms next to us here. Also the HOA prices on average in NYC are way higher than in Chicago so that needs to be factored in.

How about this $800K 2/1 in Chelsea with a $1700/mo HOA? Not very nice though with some character, a virtually non existent kitchen, and small with absolutely no view of anything:
https://www.realtor.com/realestatean...1_M38522-29800

By contrast, I can get a 1350 sq ft 2/2 in Lincoln Park just a few miles north of downtown basically right next to Lincoln Park with a much better view for $299K with a $975 HOA. You could spend $100K renovating this place and it would still be half the sale price as the Chelsea one above.

https://www.realtor.com/realestatean...4_M85860-62577

So let's contrast to some place not in Manhattan. How about this 1200 sq ft 2/2 in Forest Hills, Queens for $719K with a $1533 HOA. This is 9 miles east, in Queens, to Bryant Park in Manahttan:
https://www.realtor.com/realestatean...5_M43495-08187

Those older highrises in Chicago typically don't make sense to purchase from an investment perspective. If you were looking to purchase a condo in Chicago, you'd be better off purchasing in a 3 unit building on a standard 25/30 x 125 foot lot. You'll have significantly lower HOAs and will see better appreciation / demand long term.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Investing In Chicago

Those older highrises in Chicago typically don't make sense to purchase from an investment perspective. If you were looking to purchase a condo in Chicago, you'd be better off purchasing in a 3 unit building on a standard 25/30 x 125 foot lot. You'll have significantly lower HOAs and will see better appreciation / demand long term.

Yep

The only caveat is a beautiful classic building in an exceptional location (Gold Coast, LP, Streeterville) with views of the lake. Those condos will probably hold their value.

Another good condo investment is a low cost, small, low HOA condo downtown that you can always keep rented at a good rate. 235 w VB, where I own my condo, is a good example of that. It’s a high volume, low amenity building and when pandemics aren’t happening it will always be in an area where you can snag renters at a good rate.

Otherwise, most highrise condos in Chicago are not a good investment when downturns hit.

[marothisu]

Yeah, I was just showing from a living perspective and not necessarily full on investment mode. As for ourselves, we'll probably lean more towards a smaller building (under 10 unit building) that was built in the last decade or so outside of downtown if we do end up moving back in the next handful of months.

[LouisVanDerWright]

Originally Posted by SIGSEGV

Denver doesn't have great winters either, other than the fact that you don't have to go far to ski.

I went to a wedding in Denver in I think it was April and it snowed a shit ton.

This is absolutely not true. Denver will get cold snaps for up to a week where it snows a ton, but most of the winter is sunny and 50-60 degrees. It snows 2' and a week later it's gone.

[mark0]

Sam, I'm reading a book about the Second Machine Age, future trends, past technological advancements, etc. Very fascinating how technological innovation growth, settlement, population, health, etc. are tied together. After the steam engine, digitization (IT) and plumbing, the switch from window unit ACs to central AC systems is one of the biggest drivers of social change in history. I believe we are witnessing it first hand in our lifetimes and our regions' loss of population to the sun belt. It was near impossible to live comfortably in the deep south during summers. Taxes + bad weather are a toxic combination for growth. You can usually survive with one or the other but not both.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by LouisVanDerWright

This is absolutely not true. Denver will get cold snaps for up to a week where it snows a ton, but most of the winter is sunny and 50-60 degrees. It snows 2' and a week later it's gone.

I lived in the Denver area for 12 years. While your comment is partially true, the weather extremes can last from October through May. Having extreme changes (literally 70 degrees one day, a two-foot blizzard two days later, 70 degrees two days after that) is interesting, it gets old in a hurry as well. At least Chicago winters are of a relatively pre-determined time period.

Aaron (Glowrock)

[SIGSEGV]

Originally Posted by glowrock

I lived in the Denver area for 12 years. While your comment is partially true, the weather extremes can last from October through May. Having extreme changes (literally 70 degrees one day, a two-foot blizzard two days later, 70 degrees two days after that) is interesting, it gets old in a hurry as well. At least Chicago winters are of a relatively pre-determined time period.

Aaron (Glowrock)

Yeah, for the wedding I went to (I think it was the last weekend of April in 2017), it was nice the day I got there, but on the day of the wedding the bridesmaids (my wife was one) were freezing their asses off taking pictures in the snow...

Chicago is definitely colder on average but I think Denver gets twice the amount of snow on average.

[twister244]

Originally Posted by glowrock

I lived in the Denver area for 12 years. While your comment is partially true, the weather extremes can last from October through May. Having extreme changes (literally 70 degrees one day, a two-foot blizzard two days later, 70 degrees two days after that) is interesting, it gets old in a hurry as well. At least Chicago winters are of a relatively pre-determined time period.

Aaron (Glowrock)

Yep. When you average things out over the year, the numbers look good. And sure, right now it looks great when we are 55-60 while you guys are 10. But, back in September, we literally went from having ash falling on my car because of wildfires and it being 80+ to snow around Labor Day.

Also..... It's dry as hell here in Denver. I miss that summertime humidity that you get east of here.

So, as always, there's trade offs to all of this.