California High Speed Rail Thread

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Where in the world do you have successful HSR in a transit-hostile environment?

And if it doesn't matter, why are we even bothering with SF and LA? You could build 90% of the system at half the cost. The airports are nowhere near downtown either. Forget the tunnels and in-town construction and just end it short of the passes.

Well, so far every country rich enough to build HSR is also not pathologically opposed to public transportation. America is unique in this respect.

The reason California is "bothering" with LA and SF is because the law requires them to link those two destinations, and CA has a lot of political power vested in its inner cities. On the other hand, Brightline West and Texas Central are both stopping short of major downtowns, because it is very expensive and difficult to build those segments. As private companies they have decided the juice ain't worth the squeeze, especially when the downtown is weak and will not actually generate much ridership; an inner or mid suburban station is good enough.

I think they're right in a pure business sense; they can get the ridership they need even if they don't go all the way downtown. So for those of us who want to see HSR investment benefit inner cities, we need to grapple with this reality. Orlando actually is an interesting case here; Brightline was set to take a freeway alignment south of the airport, and the city/county agreed to share the costs with Brightline to do a better and more costly alignment that served the convention center, Universal, etc.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Crawford

And if it doesn't matter, why are we even bothering with SF and LA? You could build 90% of the system at half the cost.

Bay and LA commuter rail being massively upgraded as part of the HSR approaches.

[creamcityleo79]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

Bay and LA commuter rail being massively upgraded as part of the HSR approaches.

This is a key point I think a lot of people are missing. Commuter rail is currently being expanded from Stockton to Sacramento (line comes from San Jose and also connects with CalTrain and, eventually, BART). That line will open next year. In 2027, the same line will also have a branch from Stockton to Merced where it will connect to the HSR. In 2031, an extension from Sacramento to Chico is projected to open. There is already commuter rail via the Capitol Corridor from Sacramento to the East Bay and San Jose.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by creamcityleo79

This is a key point I think a lot of people are missing.

I don't understand what that has to do with HSR. HSR isn't going to have more ridership bc commuter rail is expanding. The claim is that HSR's relative success is predicated on grabbing market share from airlines. A commuter train to Chico isn't going to have any impact.

[creamcityleo79]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I don't understand what that has to do with HSR. HSR isn't going to have more ridership bc commuter rail is expanding. The claim is that HSR's relative success is predicated on grabbing market share from airlines. A commuter train to Chico isn't going to have any impact.

I do think it matters because it's not a "train to nowhere" (as some seem to think) if it's a part of a California-wide network of rail that is expanding coverage and frequency. This bridges the gap between completion of the Central Valley Segment and the rest of the system. The more connections it has to other types of rail, the higher the ridership. People won't have to drive from other parts of the valley to get to HSR...they can take ValleyRail or the San Joaquins and transfer.

[TWAK]

A large portion of the state is gonna be accessible via some type of rail, basically. The parts that already do will have more options and speed.

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by Crawford

I don't understand what that has to do with HSR. HSR isn't going to have more ridership bc commuter rail is expanding. The claim is that HSR's relative success is predicated on grabbing market share from airlines. A commuter train to Chico isn't going to have any impact.

...because it's only incrementally more expensive to piggy-back commuter rail improvements than to not do them. This means commuter rail gets transformative electrification and a tunnel to a new terminal station in SF for a fraction of the cost of just doing it for the commuter rail line. LA commuter rail gets full grade separation from Burbank to Anaheim, almost for free.

[TWAK]

Here is a big ole map of what nor cal would look like excluding LTR:

Fox 40

[badrunner]

Brightline West has just selected the American Pioneer 220 trainset from Siemens Mobility. Very likely CAHSR does the same.

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

I'm not sure I was aware the test speed was set at 242mph...

People are going to wet their pants when they see that streaking across the Central Valley. Naysayers will be converted. Indifferent, ignorant and oblivious will be amazed. Pols will react and state government will start to get serious about expediting Phase 1. My prediction.



California high speed train request for proposals approved

By Railway Gazette International
12 April 2024




USA: The California High-Speed Rail Authority board has approved the release of a request for proposals for the supply and maintenance of high speed trainsets.

Alstom Transportation and Siemens Mobility have prequalified for the process. Their proposals are to be submitted this autumn, with the authority aiming to award a contract by the end of the year.

The contract is to cover two prototype trainsets to be delivered for testing and trial running within four years of the noticed to proceed, and four production trainsets for passenger services on the initial 275 km Merced to Bakersfield early operating segment of the planned high speed line from 2030-33. The trainsets must be capable of operating at 355 km/h (220 miles/h) and tested up to 390 km/h (242 miles/h).

The contract would include a driving simulator, spare parts and 30 years of maintenance, including a mid-life overhaul.

The federal funding contribution requires compliance with Buy America rules, although waivers may be sought for components which cannot be sourced domestically.

Rest

[hughfb3]

Originally Posted by craigs

Many Californians will arrive at future CAHSR and Brightline stations just as they currently arrive at local airports--by private car and Uber/taxi. But some Californians will also arrive by public transit, as they currently do at the airports today.


CAHSR (and perhaps Brightline, one can hope) stations will almost certainly become focal points for local public transportation systems. The San Francisco and Los Angeles stations already are. However, the question remains whether locals will take public transit to the train stations. Time will tell.

This is an interesting case study. Brightline plans on many of their Rancho station arrivals to come from Metrolink as they have previously stated they are working with them to create a seamless schedule and transfer with ticketing and such. Sounds like they think many of their people from west of the 710 will just get to Union and do the rest via train. The question is, will people that intend on taking a train to Vegas from the Valley, South Bay, or West LA drive almost 2 hours to a park and ride Rancho Cucamonga Brightline station, or will they just drive/uber/taxi to their nearest Metrolink/Metrorail station. Time will tell

Also, a big meeting happened today at the Ziggurat in Sacramento and it looks like Foster & Partners will be one of the main architects of the CAHSR stations and German Rail operator "DeutscheBahn" is in the running to be the operator of our system

[dropdeaded209]

lol don't let Deutsche Bahn anywhere NEAR the system. Those clowns are a crushing mass of arrogant, incompetent German mediocrity.

[UrbanImpact]

Originally Posted by hughfb3

This is an interesting case study. Brightline plans on many of their Rancho station arrivals to come from Metrolink as they have previously stated they are working with them to create a seamless schedule and transfer with ticketing and such. Sounds like they think many of their people from west of the 710 will just get to Union and do the rest via train. The question is, will people that intend on taking a train to Vegas from the Valley, South Bay, or West LA drive almost 2 hours to a park and ride Rancho Cucamonga Brightline station, or will they just drive/uber/taxi to their nearest Metrolink/Metrorail station. Time will tell

Also, a big meeting happened today at the Ziggurat in Sacramento and it looks like Foster & Partners will be one of the main architects of the CAHSR stations and German Rail operator "DeutscheBahn" is in the running to be the operator of our system

Foster has been getting a lot of big American projects as of late.

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by dropdeaded209

lol don't let Deutsche Bahn anywhere NEAR the system. Those clowns are a crushing mass of arrogant, incompetent German mediocrity.

Can you please elaborate because from this side of the ocean they seem like the epitome of everything you would want in a rail operator.

[Crawford]

Germany has an amazing rail system, but DB, at least of late, has had lots of challenges. I don't think that would necessarily impact any foreign operating agreements, tho.

https://www.theguardian.com/business...-on-efficiency

[jmecklenborg]

Originally Posted by dropdeaded209

lol don't let Deutsche Bahn anywhere NEAR the system. Those clowns are a crushing mass of arrogant, incompetent German mediocrity.

It's interesting that they managed to quote several long-distance commuters in that article. We have had several commenters on this thread remark that there won't be any commuters on CAHSR because "HSR isn't for commuters", or whatever.

[ardecila]

People can't imagine any situation different from their own. Certainly it will be an expensive option to commute compared to public transit, when viewed in isolation, but coastal California housing is also extremely expensive.

Average home price, San Jose: $1.4M / $9885 monthly
Average home price, Fresno: $400K / $2824 monthly

With the savings from living in Fresno, you could spend up to $313/day on your commute and still save money. Surely some people will look at the extreme cost of living in the Bay Area and take this deal. Especially when remote work now means you only have to commute a few days a week.

Of course at those prices you could already do this with airplanes, and I'm sure some people do. The actual rate of commuting on HSR will depend on a lot of details: the ease of access (security, on time performance, etc), the final fares between cities, and how the operator allocates seats to long-distance vs short-distance passengers.

[TowerDude]

Which tunnels do people think get started first? The ones connecting Gilroy to the Central Valley Wye at Pacheco Pass or the ones between Palmdale and Burbank?

[Busy Bee]

The Pacheco Pass will get underway before the basin tunnel.

[SoCalKid]

Originally Posted by badrunner

Brightline West has just selected the American Pioneer 220 trainset from Siemens Mobility. Very likely CAHSR does the same.

Anyone have any thoughts on this selection? I don't know much about trainsets or how this will impact Brightline or other HSR throughout the US.

[Busy Bee]

As others have alluded to, BW selected the NA spec Siemens model because they already have insider confirmation that CHSRA are doing the same. This makes complete and total sense as they can piggyback a better negotiated joint order (a possibility at least), knowledge share as well as eventually interline with identical equipment.