NEW YORK | Penn Station / MSG Renovation

[manchester united]

Originally Posted by NYguy

There are no doubts about the construction of 15 Penn. The only issue is the timing. There are 10 skyscrapers projected to be built over 20 years. They know that due to market fluctuations it’s nearly impossible to predict an exact schedule, unless they build those towers on spec, which will not happen.

Currently the only question about a connections to the PATH is whether it will be on the north or south side of 15 Penn. I think they should do both.

Thank you. In your opinion, when could there be this 24/7 connection between Penn Station and Path?

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by manchester united

Thank you. In your opinion, when could there be this 24/7 connection between Penn Station and Path?

There’s a connection there now, it’s just not in use. Considering all tge construction that hascto be done, I wouldn’t look for it tomorrow.

[NYguy]

• Video Link

[TonyNYC]

Pretty Cool vision for a new Penn Station!


https://nypost.com/2022/12/03/this-n...s-are-made-of/

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by TonyNYC

Pretty Cool vision for a new Penn Station!


https://nypost.com/2022/12/03/this-n...s-are-made-of/

Under architect Washburn’s Penn Station plan, MSG would move out of the complex and be replaced by a classic building with a central towering atrium that inspires awe instead of horror

People need to stop with these fantasies. 2 Penn, which is currently growing, isn’t going anywhere. And neither is the Garden.

Pretty pictures though. Trains will still be stuck in the tunnel (or in Jersey). But lets draw up a fantasy based on something built in a different time for a different time.

[Busy Bee]

I've evolved on this. There was a time that i thought the best way to undo the injustice of losing Penn would be to spend a few billion to painstakingly recreate it without much regard as to how it functions for contemporary needs. A metaphorical cart before the horse. But you are right. As breathtaking as much of the original station was, it was in fact built primarily as a long distance hub and not a commuter hub shared with a significantly smaller long distance market. If we are still to dream and imagine a relocated MSG, which I disagree is as set in stone as you elude, I'd rather see an awe inspiring edifice from this era designed to perfectly function as we need it to with an eye towards future rail improvements that i wont get into, ehmm NEC true HSR ehmm. One thing i think would be extremely impressive though would be to meticulously recreate one interior element of the old station inside the new likely glassy envelope like the concourse on one end of the station.

[NYguy]

As we know, the area between 2 Penn and MSG will be opened up to allow daylight into Penn Station as it is reconfigured into a one level station.

While designs are currently in the works (bids were received), we get an idea of what it could look like from the conceptual renderings...







Meanwhile, with Madison Square Garden's permit renewal underway, we get an idea of how they will reconfigure the loading area to accommodate this, as well as some background on why an arena is allowed to operate on site in the first place.



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[NYguy]

As part of the permit renewal, the City plans to require MSG to upgrade the open areas around the arena to suitable public spaces. However, considering the crowds, lines, and need for circulation space around the arena (for both Penn Station and MSG), I see this as ill-advised.































By the way, for the people who are yelling about all of the displacement (likely they've newer walked the blocks), the area in green, as it's currently configured...

[mrnyc]

and to add to that … he ain’t movin:


JAMES DOLAN'S REFUSAL TO MOVE MSG PUTS SNAG IN PENN STATION REPAIR PLANS
Who will come out on top?

By Jim Dolan
Friday, February 10, 2023


MIDTOWN, Manhattan (WABC) -- New York City, also known as the city that never sleeps, has the Garden that never moves ... or is it?

If there is one thing the current owner of Madison Square Garden, James Dolan, wants you to know, it is that he is not moving MSG any time soon.


more:
https://abc7ny.com/amp/james-dolan-m...rden/12793891/

[TonyNYC]

MSG Spokesperson at last Community Board meeting..

"sure we would def. consider moving if you give us W 32-34 and 7th Avenue to build a new MSG!

No such plans are being considered for MSG to move across the street on the Hotel Penn and other sites owned by Vornado.. but I like that MSG went on the offensive here.

It's as far fetched as it comes.. just can't see Vornado giving up those lots, but damn it would be a game changer for the rebuilding of Penn Station.

There was a visionary idea of MSG moving over to that side of 7th Avenue, but nothing more.

What does everyone think??


https://nypost.com/2023/02/25/madiso...reet-official/

[BK1985]

Originally Posted by TonyNYC

but I like that MSG went on the offensive here.

https://nypost.com/2023/02/25/madiso...reet-official/

How is that going on the offensive? Destroying the old Penn station wasn't enough so now he's floating decimating two more blocks, including the Gimbels skybridge.

[TonyNYC]

Originally Posted by BK1985

How is that going on the offensive? Destroying the old Penn station wasn't enough so now he's floating decimating two more blocks, including the Gimbels skybridge.

Under Vornado's plan to build PENN15.. that POS of a building by Lord Foster, the Gimbel's Bridge will be coming down.

Matter of fact the whole block will be coming down under Coumo/Hochul's Empire Station plan.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=...AAAAAdAAAAABAE

[Busy Bee]

^ Neither of those things are accurate. We don't know what Vornado plans for the Gimbels building and we certainly dont know if whatever they decided would specifically affect the skybridge. The Empire District does not affect this Vornado owned site.

[Busy Bee]

Originally Posted by BK1985

How is that going on the offensive? Destroying the old Penn station wasn't enough so now he's floating decimating two more blocks, including the Gimbels skybridge.

In this hypothetical there is no reason to believe it will require the entire raising of 32 to 34 St from 8 to 7. A new MSG arena could fit in the western half of the site as well as front 34th St to Herald Sq. The Gimbels building could be preserved and radically integrated. The closure of 33rd could probably be avoided by having a connected subterranean level just above track level and then have the arena floor span the street. Its actually incredibly doable if they wanted to. The Hotel Penn loss is water under the bridge, a done deal. The only other structure really worth preserving is Gimbels. Everything on the 33-34-7-8 block is shockingly bad with the lone exception of the old Beck storefront.

This is intriguing. And to me at least seems more revealing than what is being led on. If the powers that be got together on the same page, delivering a transport palace for this city AND a new MSG is possible. Vornado would obviously have to radically compromise on 15 Penn.

[BK1985]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

In this hypothetical there is no reason to believe it will require the entire raising of 32 to 34 St from 8 to 7. A new MSG arena could fit in the western half of the site as well as front 34th St to Herald Sq. The Gimbels building could be preserved and radically integrated. The closure of 33rd could probably be avoided by having a connected subterranean level just above track level and then have the arena floor span the street. Its actually incredibly doable if they wanted to. The Hotel Penn loss is water under the bridge, a done deal. The only other structure really worth preserving is Gimbels. Everything on the 33-34-7-8 block is shockingly bad with the lone exception of the old Beck storefront.

This is intriguing. And to me at least seems more revealing than what is being led on. If the powers that be got together on the same page, delivering a transport palace for this city AND a new MSG is possible. Vornado would obviously have to radically compromise on 15 Penn.

That is an incredible amount of supposition. If the garden were to hypothetically move then Gimbels is as good as gone, which is why im hoping they opt for residential conversion + additions to those two buildings in order to preserve Gimbels. ( i think it would be great to repurpose as a sky lounge or bar)

[Busy Bee]

So your crystal ball is more all knowing than mine. Got it.

[BK1985]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

So your crystal ball is more all knowing than mine. Got it.

That is not what I said, I just don't think you can fit a modern arena on the western portion of those two blocks without severely compromising the structural integrity of the Manhattan Mall building which evidence of the past would indicate that they wouldnt go through the trouble of saving Gimbels. we can respectfully disagree without resorting to snarky comments.

[Busy Bee]

If I'm being honest I care more about the Gimbels building facade, as well as the skybridge, being preserved more than whether the entirety of the structure being saved/massively renovated and sliced through to accomodate a Macy's Tower style tower rising above. The original atrium has been significantly modified and altered during the Abe&Strauss/ Manhattan Mall years and its dubious whether the interior of the structure is significant enough to lift heaven and earth to restore. It would be a real undertaking but a façadectomy by either bracing the facade or taking it down and reassembling it on a new ground up structure would be a great solution. It would, as far as the public and the cityscape is concerned, preserve the building from the outside as a historical retail landmark and coukd beautifully contrast with a massive and modern new MSG with towers also rising from the venue roof which would likely be about the same height as the current Gimbels. Re-attaching a restored skybridge to the modern conplex would be icing on the cake. A ground up MSG megadevelopment would also present a huge opportunity to expand and modernize the Herald Square subway and PATH terminal complex.

In summation this hypothetical would represent obe of the most exciting development opportunities in the cities history.

[TonyNYC]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

It would, as far as the public and the cityscape is concerned, preserve the building from the outside as a historical retail landmark and coukd beautifully contrast with a massive and modern new MSG with towers also rising from the venue roof which would likely be about the same height as the current Gimbels. Re-attaching a restored skybridge to the modern conplex would be icing on the cake. A ground up MSG megadevelopment would also present a huge opportunity to expand and modernize the Herald Square subway and PATH terminal complex.

In summation this hypothetical would represent obe of the most exciting development opportunities in the cities history.

Exactly and that's only talking about that aspect of the project... now on to the other bigger and more significant aspect... leveling the current MSG and rebuilding Penn Station not necessarily rebuilding it to what it was a but a modern version of the classic Station!!

Shit it would be EPIC!!

[Doubleu1117]

Originally Posted by NYguy

As we know, the area between 2 Penn and MSG will be opened up to allow daylight into Penn Station as it is reconfigured into a one level station.

While designs are currently in the works (bids were received), we get an idea of what it could look like from the conceptual renderings...

No matter how long I look at this rendering I cant visualize where this would actually be. Above ground I know where it is, but it's difficult to understand what I'm looking at/ how this is connected or not to the new LIRR concourse. It must.