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  #2001  
Old Posted Aug 29, 2022, 11:35 PM
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I have my doubts it will make one difference to the average rider. No one in NY avoids stations along the Central Park West line because they are stacked. I'd imagine it would matter even less considering it would just be a short escalator flight lasting only a handful of seconds between directions. Personally I kind of like the stacked stations because I like to be nestled and prefer side platforms to island and having a wall behind you can be psychologically more comfortable. It also appears the stacked design accommodates a more generous platform width, at least the lower level shown in the schematic. The wider width lower level platform should be matched to the direction with the highest outbound ridership, in this case toward Oakland, and the higher level narrower platform for disembarking passengers.


EDIT

Nevermind, on closer inspection it appears the platform widths are more or less the same when taking the angle of the tunnel radius wall into account.
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  #2002  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2022, 10:59 PM
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Some more new Caltrain trainsets have arrived.



https://twitter.com/Caltrain/status/...-1FvPgowOTM5Rg
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  #2003  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2022, 4:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Busy Bee View Post
I have my doubts it will make one difference to the average rider. No one in NY avoids stations along the Central Park West line because they are stacked. I'd imagine it would matter even less considering it would just be a short escalator flight lasting only a handful of seconds between directions. Personally I kind of like the stacked stations because I like to be nestled and prefer side platforms to island and having a wall behind you can be psychologically more comfortable. It also appears the stacked design accommodates a more generous platform width, at least the lower level shown in the schematic. The wider width lower level platform should be matched to the direction with the highest outbound ridership, in this case toward Oakland, and the higher level narrower platform for disembarking passengers.


EDIT

Nevermind, on closer inspection it appears the platform widths are more or less the same when taking the angle of the tunnel radius wall into account.
Island platforms (that lack platform doors) are also disliked by the visually impaired apparently. I saw an interview with an accessibility activist discussing potential designs for new stations in Toronto and they mentioned how scary it is to have tracks on both sides with no wall for refuge.
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  #2004  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2022, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
Island platforms (that lack platform doors) are also disliked by the visually impaired apparently. I saw an interview with an accessibility activist discussing potential designs for new stations in Toronto and they mentioned how scary it is to have tracks on both sides with no wall for refuge.
It is unfortunate that metro stations in the US don't have platform doors. If you've spent any amount of time traveling in Asia, you'd see the rapid transit systems there are much safer, cleaner, newer, and user friendly.
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  #2005  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2022, 10:55 PM
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It is unfortunate that metro stations in the US don't have platform doors. If you've spent any amount of time traveling in Asia, you'd see the rapid transit systems there are much safer, cleaner, newer, and user friendly.
I'm sort of indifferent to the whole concept of PSDs. I suppose with a ground up metro system or completely new lines they have a selling point. But the outrageous cost to retrofit them into an existing system and the visual and psychological sense of confinement they produce on already cramped platforms (unless of the harder to engineer and less protective half height style) I don't think they are worth it. Yes they may save some lives by preventing the incredibly rare and tragic pushing incident and a number of yearly suicides (which most would find another way to accomplish anyway, sorry to sound heartless) but when weighed against system expansion, better service and rehabilitated stations I do not see their value. And yes that's not even getting into the undeniable fact that they would take that certain something away, that energy and that magic, and not just for railfans, from the entire experience of riding rail rapid transit. I find the images of the grand vaulted ceilings of Paris Metro stations being walled in by tinted glass screens pretty miserable.
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  #2006  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2022, 10:56 PM
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Island platforms (that lack platform doors) are also disliked by the visually impaired apparently. I saw an interview with an accessibility activist discussing potential designs for new stations in Toronto and they mentioned how scary it is to have tracks on both sides with no wall for refuge.
I hadn't even thought of that. I imagine that would be the case.
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  #2007  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2022, 11:00 PM
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I'm sort of indifferent to the whole concept of PSDs. I suppose with a ground up metro system or completely new lines they have a selling point. But the outrageous cost to retrofit them into an existing system and the visual and psychological sense of confinement they produce on already cramped platforms (unless of the harder to engineer and less protective half height style) I don't think they are worth it. Yes they may save some lives by preventing the incredibly rare and tragic pushing incident and a number of yearly suicides (which most would find another way to accomplish anyway, sorry to sound heartless) but when weighed against system expansion, better service and rehabilitated stations I do not see their value. And yes that's not even getting into the undeniable fact that they would take that certain something away, that energy and that magic, and not just for railfans, from the entire experience of riding rail rapid transit. I find the images of the grand vaulted ceilings of Paris Metro stations being walled in by tinted glass screens, I find it pretty miserable.
I don't know. I've ridden various metro systems in Asia and I didn't feel like anything related to energy and magic was lost because of PSDs. And the fact that everything was clean, new, and modern made for a much more enjoyable experience.

I believe Honolulu's brand new system (HART) will have PSDs so it'll be interesting to see how that is executed.
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  #2008  
Old Posted Aug 31, 2022, 11:16 PM
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It is unfortunate that metro stations in the US don't have platform doors. If you've spent any amount of time traveling in Asia, you'd see the rapid transit systems there are much safer, cleaner, newer, and user friendly.
I do believe Austin’s subway stations will include platform doors.
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  #2009  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2022, 12:12 AM
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I don't really like the aesthetics of PSDs but I try to set that aside because of the benefits. In addition to the other benefits mentioned, it isn't true that most suicides on metro systems would just happen elsewhere anyway. Often it's people who are distraught or experiencing some type of mental health crisis at that moment and they do it very spontaneously. So when people are presented with an easy, accessible way of doing it, the rates really increase. Kind of like with guns how the likelihood of a successful attempt is MUCH higher if you have access to one than if you don't. Having to go through extra time and bother to do it presents a lot more time for second thoughts or for other people to intervene and get the person help.
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  #2010  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2022, 1:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse View Post
I don't really like the aesthetics of PSDs but I try to set that aside because of the benefits. In addition to the other benefits mentioned, it isn't true that most suicides on metro systems would just happen elsewhere anyway. Often it's people who are distraught or experiencing some type of mental health crisis at that moment and they do it very spontaneously. So when people are presented with an easy, accessible way of doing it, the rates really increase. Kind of like with guns how the likelihood of a successful attempt is MUCH higher if you have access to one than if you don't. Having to go through extra time and bother to do it presents a lot more time for second thoughts or for other people to intervene and get the person help.
People wishing to commit suicide do not have to go to a station to step in front of a train off the platform. They could just as easily do it at a railroad crossing or along the right of way anywhere.

There are other things transit agencies can do to prevent accidential falling in front of a train from a platform vs using platform doors. Liverpool Merseyside Rail is placing gap fillers on the trains to prevent people falling between the train and platform. Many light rail operators in the USA, including DART, are placing bollards on the platforms in the location where the train units are coupled together. Automated doors is not the only answer.
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  #2011  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2022, 1:34 AM
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People accidently falling onto the tracks or between the railcar and the platform really isnt the issue though. Any solution to that problem on a massive scale would essentially be a solution in search of a problem. Not only that most American systems have a pretty tight tolerance between vehicle and platform and prevention comes in the form of pantograph gates like in NY or a version of the same concept like chains or belts. What you see less of in NA due to our lack of open gangway railcars is the rubber accordion which serves the same function on many overseas systems. At least in the case of NY, most of the interest in PSDs, to the amount that there is from both the agency and advocates, is to prevent trespassing into tunnels and suicides which both disrupt service (not to mention traumatic to both opetator and passengers) and passenger safety regarding pushing incidents usually at the hands of the menttally ill, respectively.
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  #2012  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2022, 2:10 AM
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Platform screen doors would make it possible to air-condition enclosed stations in sunbelt states and prevent litter from getting on the rails and causing incidents. There's such a night and day difference waiting for an airport people mover in an indoor room that gets mopped by a janitor every four hours and has the AC on blast so it never gets musty, versus a skanky light rail station that is outside and has piles of garbage on the tracks. Combine that with fare gates to prevent homeless loiterers and it would greatly improve the experience of using transit.

I know the official narrative is that all of this is too expensive. But I think you have to spend money to get results in the real world.
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  #2013  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2022, 3:07 AM
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I don't doubt those are attractive benefits and I actually forgot about the track fire thing with regard to third rail subways but I still think it comes down to best use of resources. Like I said, ground up and brand new, sure, go for it. But such an endeavor would cost a system like the NY subway likely tens of billions. And that's if they could even be installed in the vast majority of underground stations as the location of columns creates spaces too narrow to pass for passengers including wheelchairs creating serious circulation issues and thus hazards. I believe the MTA not that long ago released a report saying a large percentage of stations could not practically has screen doors installed in them. And we all know that in an ancient system like that some PSDs might show up but likely would never be followed by air conditioning. That is nearly guaranteed.
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  #2014  
Old Posted Sep 1, 2022, 4:13 AM
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People wishing to commit suicide do not have to go to a station to step in front of a train off the platform. They could just as easily do it at a railroad crossing or along the right of way anywhere.
In case I wasn't clear, I wasn't referring to premeditated suicides where people are going some place specifically for that purpose, but rather the spontaneous ones which tend be the larger percentage in metro systems. Besides, the issue isn't just saving lives as important as that is. It's also reducing disruption to the transit systems and trauma to transit staff and riders who witness the event so forcing the pre-mediated attempts to another location still has value.
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  #2015  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2022, 12:16 AM
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In case I wasn't clear, I wasn't referring to premeditated suicides where people are going some place specifically for that purpose, but rather the spontaneous ones which tend be the larger percentage in metro systems. Besides, the issue isn't just saving lives as important as that is. It's also reducing disruption to the transit systems and trauma to transit staff and riders who witness the event so forcing the pre-mediated attempts to another location still has value.

Over the course of a day, a disturbed someone might spend half an hour waiting for a train at the station. They spend 8 hours at work, and easily another 8 hours at a minimum at home. 16 hours vs 0.5 hours. Why do you think they might go crazy more often at the train station?
Possibilty YES, Probabilty NO!
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  #2016  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2022, 12:48 AM
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Over the course of a day, a disturbed someone might spend half an hour waiting for a train at the station. They spend 8 hours at work, and easily another 8 hours at a minimum at home. 16 hours vs 0.5 hours. Why do you think they might go crazy more often at the train station?
Possibilty YES, Probabilty NO!
Because statically that's what happens. It isn't a matter of either of us speculating on what we think people might do and why because what we expect has no bearing on reality. You only need to speculate about something if there's not enough actual data to know for sure.
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  #2017  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2022, 1:00 AM
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Over the course of a day, a disturbed someone might spend half an hour waiting for a train at the station. They spend 8 hours at work, and easily another 8 hours at a minimum at home. 16 hours vs 0.5 hours. Why do you think they might go crazy more often at the train station?
Possibilty YES, Probabilty NO!

No matter what the issue, Electricron loves math!
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  #2018  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2022, 1:13 AM
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This is an except from a much longer article where I initially learned about the nature of subway-related suicide attempts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toronto Life Magazine

In some notable ways, people who choose to commit suicide in the subway are a breed apart. The subway is one of the only violent means of suicide that women are as apt to use as men. (Suicidal women tend to prefer pills and cutting themselves, while men prefer more deadly means, such as guns.) Paul Links, a professor of psychiatry and the chair of suicide studies at the University of Toronto, has studied suicidal behaviour on subway systems around the world and proposes that subways are a draw to people who impulsively commit suicide, for the simple reason that they are convenient. His theory is backed up by a Montreal study that found most people attempt suicides at the subway station closest to home. “A characteristic of a suicidal state of mind is that planning is affected,” Links says. “A suicidal person isn’t thinking, ‘Well, I have six options, so if this doesn’t work, I’ll try another method.’ ” If you can prevent a person committing suicide by one method, he says, the crisis may pass, and so may the desire to die.

Most deaths occur during lunch hour. The highest concentration is on the Yonge line, between Bloor and Sheppard

The convenience theory undermines critics of subway barriers, who believe that a suicidal person who encounters such a barrier will simply find another place to die. The effect of the suicide barrier installed on the Bloor Street Viaduct seems to support Links’s findings. Between 1918 and 2003, more than 400 people died by jumping from the overpass above the Don Valley; it was second only to San Francisco’s Golden Gate Bridge as the most frequently used site for bridge-related suicides in the world. In 2003, the city built the Luminous Veil along both sides of the bridge, ignoring criticism about cost and aesthetics. Since then, no one has died from jumping off the viaduct, and the total number of suicides in the city has dipped from 273 in 2003 to 244 in 2007. Of course, the drop could simply be a statistical anomaly.

Researchers have tried to understand suicidal behaviour by following thwarted subway jumpers and seeing if they re-attempt. One decade-long study undertaken in Britain in the 1980s followed a group of 94 people who had survived a suicide attempt on the London underground. Only seven went on to die from a subsequent suicide (three in the subway). For most of the 94, the desire to die was fleeting. More recently, there was an 11-year study of suicides on the Hong Kong subway system, after the city installed platform barriers. Only some of the stations have barriers, but jumpers didn’t flock to unprotected stations to kill themselves. Instead, fewer people jumped, period. Researchers concluded that not only did the existence of barriers at some stations physically prevent suicides, the barriers “delethalized” the image of the subway system altogether.
https://torontolife.com/city/priorit...-to-stop-them/
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  #2019  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2022, 2:05 AM
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All that makes perfect sense, I'm not going to claim it doesn't. It's just that a person could also walk in front of a bus, or truck, or any number of split decision methods. Obviously we can't put up barriers to protect against that and the cost of... well thats pointless to even explore. There's nothing less lethal about walking in front of a Mack box truck going 40 than a subway doing 25.

I understand the psychology at play here. I understand the sentiment. It will just continue to come down to whether we want to spend scarce public dollars to safeguard against suicides or suicide attempts. Not everything in life can be protected against. I don't mean to sound insensitive I really dont, but if saving lives were the goal, the list would be long... Driving, alcohol, over the counter drugs, and of course the #1 suicide aid, guns.
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  #2020  
Old Posted Sep 2, 2022, 2:19 AM
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All that makes perfect sense, I'm not going to claim it doesn't. It's just that a person could also walk in front of a bus, or truck, or any number of split decision methods. Obviously we can't put up barriers to protect against that and the cost of... well thats pointless to even explore. There's nothing less lethal about walking in front of a Mack box truck going 40 than a subway doing 25.

I understand the psychology at play here. I understand the sentiment. It will just continue to come down to whether we want to spend scarce public dollars to safeguard against suicides or suicide attempts. Not everything in life can be protected against. I don't mean to sound insensitive I really dont, but if saving lives were the goal, the list would be long... Driving, alcohol, over the counter drugs, and of course the #1 suicide aid, guns.
But it isn't just about saving lives it's about protecting the transit system which is a vital piece of infrastructure to a city. These incidents can require the line to shut down, sometimes for hours, inconveniencing thousands of people and costing money and resources. Not to mention how traumatic it is for the transit operator and passengers who witness the event. There's at least one case where a subway operator committed suicide themselves after experiencing the trauma of hitting someone. Plus there can be benefits not related to suicide such as reducing the danger from crowding at busier stations, reducing trip times by allowing trains to enter stations at higher speeds, and making it possible to climate control some stations where it wouldn't otherwise be feasible.

I'm not saying that all existing stations should be retrofitted. That would require a cost-benefit analysis which could result in different outcomes in different settings. I'm simply pointing out how I came to accept that their benefit outweighs their downsides in many cases despite my aesthetic aversion to them.
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