HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > Transportation


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #14861  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2019, 4:56 AM
emathias emathias is offline
Adoptive Chicagoan
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: River North, Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 5,157
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomarandlee View Post
I like the plan to but I've always thought it most ideal to attempt to potentially run up the ME through Lakeshore East, across the river, and north up Columbus, turning west at Chicago (or Division) and connecting to a densely developed Tribune Plant site before going either north or south to Lincoln Yards/West Loop.

All in that would be about 2.5 miles of completely new below-grade track that would give downtown Chicago much of what was needed for a circulator.
Yep. I know, I know, just let me get my checkbook ...
__________________
[SIZE="1"]I like travel and photography - check out my [URL="https://www.flickr.com/photos/ericmathiasen/"]Flickr page[/URL].
CURRENT GEAR: Nikon Z6, Nikon Z 14-30mm f4 S, Nikon Z 24-70mm f/4 S, Nikon 50mm f1.4G
STOLEN GEAR: (during riots of 5/30/2020) Nikon D750, Nikon 14-24mm F2.8G, Nikon 85mm f1.8G, Nikon 50mm f1.4D
[/SIZE]
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14862  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2019, 5:01 AM
emathias emathias is offline
Adoptive Chicagoan
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: River North, Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 5,157
Quote:
Originally Posted by k1052 View Post
Limited capacity passengers per hour and the absolute nuclear firestorm of homeowner opposition I think are problems with this.

Dedicated bus lanes would be much cheaper.
They're not that noisy, and they're high enough to be less intrusive than the 606 so I don't really see much homeowner opposition. Capacity wouldn't need to be all that high to be useful, and buses would only be effective if given dedicated lanes, but there are no streets in that alignment where that's possible - unless you think residents would object to less to halving capacity on their favorite EW route to/from the Kennedy. I can't even imagine the outcry for that. Aerial trams are grade-separated, so offer the most value at rush hour. Buses are exactly the opposite of that. Bus capacity at rush hour can't possibly be very high on Armitage, North, or Fullerton between Milwaukee and Halsted anyway. I think trams can do 6,000/hr, which should be enough. It's not as if buses are going to be gotten rid of on those routes, so this is supplemental for just people moving from those lines to other lines or Lincoln Yards.
__________________
[SIZE="1"]I like travel and photography - check out my [URL="https://www.flickr.com/photos/ericmathiasen/"]Flickr page[/URL].
CURRENT GEAR: Nikon Z6, Nikon Z 14-30mm f4 S, Nikon Z 24-70mm f/4 S, Nikon 50mm f1.4G
STOLEN GEAR: (during riots of 5/30/2020) Nikon D750, Nikon 14-24mm F2.8G, Nikon 85mm f1.8G, Nikon 50mm f1.4D
[/SIZE]
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14863  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2019, 1:05 PM
k1052 k1052 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,235
Quote:
Originally Posted by emathias View Post
They're not that noisy, and they're high enough to be less intrusive than the 606 so I don't really see much homeowner opposition. Capacity wouldn't need to be all that high to be useful, and buses would only be effective if given dedicated lanes, but there are no streets in that alignment where that's possible - unless you think residents would object to less to halving capacity on their favorite EW route to/from the Kennedy. I can't even imagine the outcry for that. Aerial trams are grade-separated, so offer the most value at rush hour. Buses are exactly the opposite of that. Bus capacity at rush hour can't possibly be very high on Armitage, North, or Fullerton between Milwaukee and Halsted anyway. I think trams can do 6,000/hr, which should be enough. It's not as if buses are going to be gotten rid of on those routes, so this is supplemental for just people moving from those lines to other lines or Lincoln Yards.
Specifically I think the height would be a major part of opposition. You're tying to logically think about what these people would oppose when it isn't about logic at all.

I've seen 6,000/hr as proposed but am not aware of any system that actually operates at this level. 2,000-3,000/hr seems more common. Which are throughputs that are readily achievable with more advanced bus service that could be deployed at far lower cost than building a tramway.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14864  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2019, 2:20 PM
Mr Downtown's Avatar
Mr Downtown Mr Downtown is offline
Urbane observer
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,385
I was quite impressed with the systems I toured in La Paz and Medellín (and under construction in Guayaquil and Bogotá) in November. Much cheaper than any type of rail; much more politically feasible than dedicated busways.

But imagine the local reaction to something like this down the middle of North Avenue



or to riders having this view into the McMansions on Howe or Orchard:

Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14865  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2019, 4:54 PM
k1052 k1052 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,235
I'm not sure that I'd say a busway is more or less politically feasible than a tram in a neighborhood since I don't think we've seriously proposed it and let the locals shoot at it.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14866  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2019, 5:18 PM
Baronvonellis Baronvonellis is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Chicago
Posts: 880
Yes, that would be amazing! I don't know why people would be against it. Buses get jammed in all the traffic around that area. Gondolas look really cool and futuristic, they make no noise from the ground and 0 pollution. Plus, it's so peaceful and relaxing to float up in the air like that and admire the views. Compared to the noisy loud L trains, I don't think people would even notice they were there.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14867  
Old Posted Jul 26, 2019, 5:57 PM
ardecila's Avatar
ardecila ardecila is offline
TL;DR
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: the city o'wind
Posts: 16,356
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Downtown View Post
In Phase 2, an expensive new Munich-style tunnel under Clark and Chicago Ave. would give access to the heart of the Loop. Transfer stations (with timed meets) where the downtown routings cross give passengers their choice of Central Loop–River North or West Loop. O’Hare access is most expedient today via CP/NCS but may be more practical long-term via MD-W.
I'd keep the tunnel as you proposed it, but add an extra leg below Ogden so UP-W, MD-N and MD-W can approach the tunnel from the north and serve the Near North area.
__________________
la forme d'une ville change plus vite, hélas! que le coeur d'un mortel...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14868  
Old Posted Jul 28, 2019, 10:20 PM
emathias emathias is offline
Adoptive Chicagoan
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: River North, Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 5,157
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Downtown View Post
I was quite impressed with the systems I toured in La Paz and Medellín (and under construction in Guayaquil and Bogotá) in November. Much cheaper than any type of rail; much more politically feasible than dedicated busways.

But imagine the local reaction to something like this down the middle of North Avenue
...
or to riders having this view into the McMansions on Howe or Orchard:
...
I was thinking it could run above the 606, which has already overcome political opposition, and it would pull in additional tourists and eventually it might be viable to pull it west to the western end of the 606 to get some grade-separated transit into Humboldt Park (again - given the spur there was torn down a half-century ago). It could serve all sorts of things that some politicians like, creating quite a coalition of supporters. Politicians that like the transit, politicians that like pulling transit into underserved areas, politicians that like transit that doesn't use carbon, politicians that like shiny, new things in their wards, politicians that like the idea of pulling more tourists out of downtown and into the neighborhoods. Gentrifiers might have mixed opinions - better transit, but might raise property values again. Of course some homeowners might object, and some might say it doesn't carry enough, but those are details to be negotiated in my opinion, not dead stops.
__________________
[SIZE="1"]I like travel and photography - check out my [URL="https://www.flickr.com/photos/ericmathiasen/"]Flickr page[/URL].
CURRENT GEAR: Nikon Z6, Nikon Z 14-30mm f4 S, Nikon Z 24-70mm f/4 S, Nikon 50mm f1.4G
STOLEN GEAR: (during riots of 5/30/2020) Nikon D750, Nikon 14-24mm F2.8G, Nikon 85mm f1.8G, Nikon 50mm f1.4D
[/SIZE]
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14869  
Old Posted Jul 29, 2019, 9:23 PM
Mr Downtown's Avatar
Mr Downtown Mr Downtown is offline
Urbane observer
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,385
^That makes sense for west of Ashland—but where could it be routed between Clybourn and the lakefront that it's not providing views down into the backyards and bedrooms of the city's wealthiest and most powerful census tracts?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14870  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2019, 7:20 PM
Jim in Chicago Jim in Chicago is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Downtown View Post
Well, I'm not sure that's likely. But it does give me a chance to post my RER/S-bahn fantasy for Chicago.


Begin with 30-minute service on four lines, through-routed via the St. Charles Air Line and Union Station through tracks. This only requires three new turnouts. In Phase 2, an expensive new Munich-style tunnel under Clark and Chicago Ave. would give access to the heart of the Loop. Transfer stations (with timed meets) where the downtown routings cross give passengers their choice of Central Loop–River North or West Loop. O’Hare access is most expedient today via CP/NCS but may be more practical long-term via MD-W.
I'll vote for any S/RER service like the one that allows me to go from Koeln Hbf to Dusseldorf Flughafen non-stop in less time than it takes me go from the Loop to ORD! And the cars are clean, the tracks don't squeek, you aren't flung from side to side and random people aren't screaming at each other.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14871  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2019, 7:47 PM
Baronvonellis Baronvonellis is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Chicago
Posts: 880
Yea, German and most Europe transit systems are lightyears ahead of Chicago for convenience and speed.

Why do trains in Chicago fling you around like a rag doll? I've never been on a train in Europe that did that. Is the suspension crap?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14872  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2019, 10:31 PM
Mr Downtown's Avatar
Mr Downtown Mr Downtown is offline
Urbane observer
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 4,385
Several reasons: we're not very good with track in the US, because we've spent decades thinking primarily of freight trains and because we take the lowest bidder rather than being able to select the company with experience (this was a national scandal on the CTA O'Hare Extension back in the 1980s).

Then, CTA cars are basically lightweight streetcars running at 55 mph. They don't weigh much, and have short wheelbases. By contrast, Metra bi-levels are topheavy, so they sway quite a bit any time the two rails aren't perfectly aligned.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14873  
Old Posted Jul 30, 2019, 10:52 PM
urbanview urbanview is offline
BANNED
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Location: Kampala
Posts: 77
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baronvonellis View Post
Yea, German and most Europe transit systems are lightyears ahead of Chicago for convenience and speed.

Why do trains in Chicago fling you around like a rag doll? I've never been on a train in Europe that did that. Is the suspension crap?
U don't say! They have money to put into transit, we don't.

Last edited by urbanview; Jul 30, 2019 at 11:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14874  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2019, 3:36 PM
Jim in Chicago Jim in Chicago is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 363
Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanview View Post
U don't say! They have money to put into transit, we don't.
Or, another way to state this would be "they've chosen to fund public transit" we've chosen to fund other things.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14875  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2019, 3:54 PM
sammyg sammyg is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in Chicago View Post
Or, another way to state this would be "they've chosen to fund public transit" we've chosen to fund other things.
That's right - we suddenly had billions to bribe Amazon to come here, when there's not enough money to complete the order of 7000-series railcars. (Not 5000 like I said before)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14876  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2019, 4:53 PM
Baronvonellis Baronvonellis is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Chicago
Posts: 880
Well yea, we have unlimited billions to buy the latest stealth fighter jets, laser guided missiles and mulit-decade skirmishes on the other side of the planet. But when it comes to trains in the US, they are far too expensive and we can't afford them lol.

I was referring to the L trains that fling me side to side, the metra trains seem more stable to me.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14877  
Old Posted Jul 31, 2019, 11:01 PM
OhioGuy OhioGuy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: DC
Posts: 7,649
I f*cking hate buses on the Mag Mile during evening rush hour. They move so incredibly slow. It just took me 30 minutes to go 1 mile from Oak Street to the river on the 147. I should have just walked from the Delaware stop down to the park. I can walk much faster. I gave up at the Wrigley building and walked. I want a bus tunnel!
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14878  
Old Posted Aug 1, 2019, 12:03 AM
emathias emathias is offline
Adoptive Chicagoan
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: River North, Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 5,157
Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioGuy View Post
I f*cking hate buses on the Mag Mile during evening rush hour. They move so incredibly slow. It just took me 30 minutes to go 1 mile from Oak Street to the river on the 147. I should have just walked from the Delaware stop down to the park. I can walk much faster. I gave up at the Wrigley building and walked. I want a bus tunnel!
Me, too! There's already a lower Michigan all the way to Grand Ave, so they'd just have to do the 1/2 mile to Oak Street. Granted, the interchange at Oak would be quite complex, but they're planning to rebuild that entire area sometime anyway, so why not at least engineer it so that if they ever got around to doing a lower Michigan from Grand to Oak it could connect up easy.

I think it'd be best paired with a Lower Chicago Ave, too, to get the 66 bus through quickly. It can take nearly half an hour to get from the Brown Line Chicago Ave station to Navy Pier,w hich is insanely slow. Making a tunnel between Orleans and Fairbanks would be very helpful and, coupled with some BRT investments west of the River, the Chicago Ave 66 bus could really gain some ridership and also actually be useful for continuing on the gentrification of Ukrainian Village and southern portions of Humboldt Park.
__________________
[SIZE="1"]I like travel and photography - check out my [URL="https://www.flickr.com/photos/ericmathiasen/"]Flickr page[/URL].
CURRENT GEAR: Nikon Z6, Nikon Z 14-30mm f4 S, Nikon Z 24-70mm f/4 S, Nikon 50mm f1.4G
STOLEN GEAR: (during riots of 5/30/2020) Nikon D750, Nikon 14-24mm F2.8G, Nikon 85mm f1.8G, Nikon 50mm f1.4D
[/SIZE]
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14879  
Old Posted Aug 1, 2019, 12:46 AM
ardecila's Avatar
ardecila ardecila is offline
TL;DR
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: the city o'wind
Posts: 16,356
Or, you know, we could just build bus lanes. The city is already doing bus lanes on Chicago from Michigan to Larrabee, funded in part by One Chicago... not sure if those are done yet but they are many orders of magnitude cheaper than a tunnel.

https://chi.streetsblog.org/2019/04/...the-new-lanes/
__________________
la forme d'une ville change plus vite, hélas! que le coeur d'un mortel...
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #14880  
Old Posted Aug 1, 2019, 11:09 AM
OhioGuy OhioGuy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: DC
Posts: 7,649
I doubt city officials would want to interrupt the signal timing of the traffic lights along the Mag Mile to allow for legitimate BRT. Plus there are so many buses through that stretch the lights would almost have to stay constantly green for north-south traffic and very little east-west traffic. Although I guess you’re only suggesting bus lanes and not anything related to signal priority. How have the bus lanes for Loop Link fared? Beyond creating fixed shelters for the homeless, has Loop Link been all that successful?

Last edited by OhioGuy; Aug 1, 2019 at 1:23 PM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > Transportation
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:10 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.