CHICAGO | General Discussions

[Chi-Sky21]

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[ORD2010]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ No offense, you seem very nice and genuine, but therein kinda lies the problem. We hear these perspectives from "late 20s" or "30 something" whipper snappers all day every day and it's the same clueless perspective. I know that most of that demographic is ignorant about running a business. I was one once.

Many have their neat little software-tech-whatever consulting job which somehow is now happening from home, and pay rent, and all is well. Never fear, the "educated bright elite are all still coming to the city in droves" and everybody who complains, well, "don't let the door hit you on the way out" as you go to backwards Trumpist Florida.

It's the old and tired routine, but it's completely off. It's not telling anything close to the complexity of the real story.

I'm not saying that I have the answers, but post-COVID Chicago needs a new formula. Because at least for some proportion of the population, work from home is here to stay--and "work from home" can mean suburbs, or maybe it can mean Missouri.

These small businesses are mostly owned by people who aren't 33 years old, they are older and more cynical, but that doesn't make them all 'mean Trumpist assholes' or whatever they are falsely being characterized as. They are a huge part of Chicago's tax base that are not as mobile as the "work from home" types who can do their job from anywhere. This year has been enormously painful for them, perhaps destructive, and they deserve better than some asshole with the whole "enjoy Florida, you won't be missed!" nonsense.

Now I didn't bring politics into this, and unlike the original post I don't think this is a blue vs red issue all that much, almost every major city in the country even if a red state, is a blue area, Miami to Chicago is still a blue to blue move. I do a fair amount of research, do not work in tech, and have people in industries dedicated to studying population movements and investment opportunities. Now I wouldn't call the perspective of anyone below 30 incorrect, as no matter how great economics are, the new generations move to places due to different factors, especially post pandemic, than past generations, as it always has.

I also don't think the 'enjoy florida!' attitude came because he was moving to Florida, but because of the tone and attitude he delivered it with, a very 'Chicago is garbage and liberals and their tech are killing it and why would I stay there when I can go lay on a beach' and thats the tone that pisses most people off, me included, cause they don't realize the city they get the privilege to call home, again the grass is always greener, but you don't need to rub it in and the piss on the lawn you used to live in.

If we are being completely honest? most people under 30 do not feel like there is an environment to open a brick and mortar business in, heck most of us don't even plan on there being a social security/pension fund for us by the time we can retire. We are a very cynical generation currently and much more rely on virtual businesses since it does not require the same amount of the money. The future of all these cities depends on attracting those under 30 and maintain their current population. Chicago needs to to support its current small businesses but also appeal more to the yuppies especially with wfh to stay, which to me is well, the offering a major city has that places like Nashville, Miami, and Austin don't have yet at least.

Your perspective is important, both of ours make up the city and are important for the future, but we can't pretend each side is wrong and that only we know what is correct.

[Rizzo]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ No offense, you seem very nice and genuine, but therein kinda lies the problem. We hear these perspectives from "late 20s" or "30 something" whipper snappers all day every day and it's the same clueless perspective. I know that most of that demographic is ignorant about running a business. I was one once.

Many have their neat little software-tech-whatever consulting job which somehow is now happening from home, and pay rent, and all is well. Never fear, the "educated bright elite are all still coming to the city in droves" and everybody who complains, well, "don't let the door hit you on the way out" as you go to backwards Trumpist Florida.

It's the old and tired routine, but it's completely off. It's not telling anything close to the complexity of the real story.

I'm not saying that I have the answers, but post-COVID Chicago needs a new formula. Because at least for some proportion of the population, work from home is here to stay--and "work from home" can mean suburbs, or maybe it can mean Missouri.

These small businesses are mostly owned by people who aren't 33 years old, they are older and more cynical, but that doesn't make them all 'mean Trumpist assholes' or whatever they are falsely being characterized as. They are a huge part of Chicago's tax base that are not as mobile as the "work from home" types who can do their job from anywhere. This year has been enormously painful for them, perhaps destructive, and they deserve better than some asshole with the whole "enjoy Florida, you won't be missed!" nonsense.

The greater investment you put in Chicago, the more you realize the rising cost of owning or running a business. Not complaining personally, just aware. If you're a homeowner, it could be rising property taxes that are of concern. If you own a business, the rising cost and complexity of permits and registrations.

We probably have some runway left to reform and transition before abrupt, structural changes must be made to address the budget crisis, but it's a runway mostly traveled so the remaining options aren't desirable. It doesn't help much that people are stuck at home due to the pandemic and can't enjoy a city that's worth paying for. It's what keeps Chicago an attractive draw, at least in the midwest.

That said, costs will eventually follow the masses to whatever places become popular. Real Estate prices will rise, infrastructure will be stressed, and residents will demand more services and amenities, and all of this will be the foundation for legacy costs.

Quite the conversation to emerge from the subject of furniture stores. To that I'll say there's plenty of options out there. Reminds me of what became of independent electronics stores.

[Busy Bee]

Plus you get to have a bonafide space alien as your senator.

[Bonsai Tree]

Originally Posted by SamInTheLoop

^^ Not a small point. People sometimes lose sight of the obvious in terms of analyzing why certain metros continue to see such outmigration. What is probably the single most important reason Chicago's (and many other northern clime metros) demographics struggle?

It's not complicated.

This is something that plays out over many, many decades (and there are of course many other factors - going both ways - mixed in) and is still happening.

And, the inverse is also true - what is one of the single most important factors in strong inmigration trends in many metros across the southern half of the US - weather......and, very importantly, air conditioning. Yes - believe it or not, the advent of AC is after all this time, still a significant factor in regional migration trends within the US. Kinda crazy yet......duh.

Originally Posted by mark0

Sam, I'm reading a book about the Second Machine Age, future trends, past technological advancements, etc. Very fascinating how technological innovation growth, settlement, population, health, etc. are tied together. After the steam engine, digitization (IT) and plumbing, the switch from window unit ACs to central AC systems is one of the biggest drivers of social change in history. I believe we are witnessing it first hand in our lifetimes and our regions' loss of population to the sun belt. It was near impossible to live comfortably in the deep south during summers. Taxes + bad weather are a toxic combination for growth. You can usually survive with one or the other but not both.

I especially get mad at the stupid "weather argument". That's the dumbest argument out there. If the weather was a major factor in the recent slight decline in Illinois's population then why are there plenty of cities north of here growing? Minneapolis, Grand Rapids, and even Fargo North Dakota. How about Canada! Canada has a booming population! Calgary is cold as hell, how do you explain it growing by 400,000 people over the past 15 years. Sure there are plenty of people who do move for weather, but if they made up a large portion of the population the North wouldn't have any people and we'd all be living in California (which has the best year-round weather). Oh wait, people are moving out of California! That's why this argument sucks. Please use other things like segregation, lack of economic opportunity, even image (which has a much larger impact on population) rather than weather. It's just ridiculous.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by west-town-brad

he should be cursing the internet

The internet doesn't control local rules and regulations nor property taxes.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by Busy Bee

Wayfair's got just what I need....

...says a whole lot of people that used to pay more for less selection at mom n pop furniture stores. Sad but true. But sure, blame it on democrats. Enjoy Florida.

Actually this guy received floor units etc. His prices were extremely low.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by Handro

What would your solution be? Flirting dangerously close with encouraging governments to interfere with a free market here. Lowering taxes isn’t going to solve rising rents in desirable areas or the siren song of online shopping. Evolve or die... I hope the furniture store owner finds great success in Florida, it often takes risks (like moving) to find a new edge.

Or alternatively, building more affordable housing to increase foot traffic to budget furniture stores in rapidly changing neighborhoods could do the trick. But that’s often seen as the final step to 1917 Russia to pro-capitalist folks in Chicago, so it’s sort of a rock and hard place.

He owned the building and said he sold it for a lot less than it was worth.

We need urbanites to stop buying online. They are killing their own city. My God why can't people see that? A city is more than restaurants and bars. However, within a decade or so that is all that will be left. What kind of energy is that?

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by OrdoSeclorum

One man's trash is another man's Florida.

Seriously, though, I'd consider moving to Florida myself if I smoked, jet-skied and was named Tammy. There's no better place to be if you enjoy hearing people complain about walking. Plus you get to shoot whomever you want as long as you say they were threatening you!

Why is always a joke to you guys?

A dude (who is a Chinese immigrant, btw) has made a decent living and now was forced to sell his business and building. He is making a smart decision by moving states (I think he is retiring) and you guys make fun of him instead of focusing in the insanity here?

Why is that?

Is it because it would force you to think about the negatives? I am currently working on an energy plan for Calumet City. I have lost all motivation for the project when I found out more about the city. They have been losing population for two decades yet the government budget keeps increasing(even accounting for inflation) and tax revenue...surprise surprise...keeps going UP! They just keep increasing property taxes. Check out the property tax calculator, a home worth 100k is paying more in taxes than a 500k home in Florida. This discourages appreciation which is the main driver of wealth. But who cares, just a bunch of poor blacks living there!

This mentality is literally killing this area and you guys just make silly jokes and deride anyone to makes a rational choice to leave.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by Bonsai Tree

I especially get mad at the stupid "weather argument". That's the dumbest argument out there. If the weather was a major factor in the recent slight decline in Illinois's population then why are there plenty of cities north of here growing? Minneapolis, Grand Rapids, and even Fargo North Dakota. How about Canada! Canada has a booming population! Calgary is cold as hell, how do you explain it growing by 400,000 people over the past 15 years. Sure there are plenty of people who do move for weather, but if they made up a large portion of the population the North wouldn't have any people and we'd all be living in California (which has the best year-round weather). Oh wait, people are moving out of California! That's why this argument sucks. Please use other things like segregation, lack of economic opportunity, even image (which has a much larger impact on population) rather than weather. It's just ridiculous.

Well, in regards to a Canada, it’s literally growing because of international immigration of people from poorer countries.

Trust me, the single worst thing that could happen to Toronto, Vancouver, Calgary, etc is if America flings open its doors to international immigration (at least makes it as easy as Canada does), or if a Canada became a part of the US. It would be a disaster.

[Handro]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

Why is always a joke to you guys?

Because an anecdotal story about a brick-and-mortar retail owner struggling to stay in business is not an indictment of rules and regulations as much as it is of the state of American society in 2021 (chiefly online shopping, COVID) and is something one could find in any city, despite what the right-leaning, John Kass-readers of Chicago want to believe. How much ink has been spilled over the past two decades about the "death of retail"? This is not a Chicago-centric problem.

In our city's case, there is plenty of blame to go around for the struggles of both business and residents, and a fair-minded person can level them all over the political spectrum (looking at you, Kim Foxx). The conservative (culturally if not politically) voices that fear lack of parking (Ashland BRT, we hardly knew ye), increased density (death to SFH zoning!), or neighbors from different socio-economic classes (like hero Ald. Jim Gardner) are as much to blame for the woes of neighborhood businesses as rising taxes. I agree that all factors considered, it is an EXTREMELY difficult business environment--but to conveniently try to blame some vague "regulations" bogeyman is at best lazy and at worst dishonest. So we just laugh.

[the urban politician]

..

[OrdoSeclorum]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

Why is always a joke to you guys?

.

It's not ALWAYS a joke. But Florida with the bugs and the heat and Pitbull and the driving sun-damaged women named Tammy smoking in a bikinis all over the place. It's.... it's not for me. 100% of the time when someone I know moves to Florida it's also someone who has gotten tricked into joining a pyramid scheme.

Obviously some people like it.

But if Illinois is in a race with Florida and someone says we need to be more like Florida to win, that's not someone I take seriously. In the long run, quality places and institutions will win. States run like Florida love to say they are pro-business, simply because they let them do whatever they want. It's a great place to be if you're a slumlord. Not a a great place to be if you're a person.

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by Handro

Because an anecdotal story about a brick-and-mortar retail owner struggling to stay in business is not an indictment of rules and regulations as much as it is of the state of American society in 2021 (chiefly online shopping, COVID) and is something one could find in any city, despite what the right-leaning, John Kass-readers of Chicago want to believe. How much ink has been spilled over the past two decades about the "death of retail"? This is not a Chicago-centric problem.

In our city's case, there is plenty of blame to go around for the struggles of both business and residents, and a fair-minded person can level them all over the political spectrum (looking at you, Kim Foxx). The conservative (culturally if not politically) voices that fear lack of parking (Ashland BRT, we hardly knew ye), increased density (death to SFH zoning!), or neighbors from different socio-economic classes (like hero Ald. Jim Gardner) are as much to blame for the woes of neighborhood businesses as rising taxes. I agree that all factors considered, it is an EXTREMELY difficult business environment--but to conveniently try to blame some vague "regulations" bogeyman is at best lazy and at worst dishonest. So we just laugh.

Alright.

Well, keep laughing. The city's sales tax is so high that even Chicago politicians can't stomach to raise it. You guys are maxed out.

Do the people of Chicago benefit from all of these high taxes and regulations? You would hardly know from how it looks on the ground. But whatever, keep ignoring these issues, it doesn't matter. They aren't going away and the city will suffer from its horrible leadership and bloated government. (I just had a detailed look at the city's most recent budget, holy shit).

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by OrdoSeclorum

It's not ALWAYS a joke. But Florida with the bugs and the heat and Pitbull and the driving sun-damaged women named Tammy smoking in a bikinis all over the place. It's.... it's not for me. 100% of the time when someone I know moves to Florida it's also someone who has gotten tricked into joining a pyramid scheme.

Obviously some people like it.

But if Illinois is in a race with Florida and someone says we need to be more like Florida to win, that's not someone I take seriously. In the long run, quality places and institutions will win. States run like Florida love to say they are pro-business, simply because they let them do whatever they want. It's a great place to be if you're a slumlord. Not a a great place to be if you're a person.

Oh yes, ZERO slumlords in Chicago LOL

A whole quarter of this city is made up of landlords who don't give a shit about the quality of their buildings and let gangbangers ruin neighborhoods.

[ChiMIchael]

I had a cousin that's made many attempts to leave Chicago for Florida but winds up coming back. It seems like Florida's QOL isn't that great. But if I receive a decent job offer in FL, I would definitely take it.

Some of you can answer this better than me, but when was the last time Chicago achieve any major investments or resources booms? I think that addresses many of the city's problems.

[Handro]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

Alright.

Well, keep laughing. The city's sales tax is so high that even Chicago politicians can't stomach to raise it. You guys are maxed out.

Do the people of Chicago benefit from all of these high taxes and regulations? You would hardly know from how it looks on the ground. But whatever, keep ignoring these issues, it doesn't matter. They aren't going away and the city will suffer from its horrible leadership and bloated government. (I just had a detailed look at the city's most recent budget, holy shit).

Again, it's not about ignoring them. It's about taking a holistic view of the problems facing the city and giving the appropriate eye roll when partisans rage about "regulations" as if that's the beginning and end of the myriad issues. Maybe once you get a few years in Chicago under your belt you'll start to understand things more broadly.

[the urban politician]

^ Why do you say “partisans”?

If a business owner for 20 years is frustrated at the city, what part about him considering moving makes him “partisan”?

[jtown,man]

Originally Posted by Handro

Again, it's not about ignoring them. It's about taking a holistic view of the problems facing the city and giving the appropriate eye roll when partisans rage about "regulations" as if that's the beginning and end of the myriad issues. Maybe once you get a few years in Chicago under your belt you'll start to understand things more broadly.

I understand enough now, it's not partisan.

Look at what businesses had to go through for SIMPLE outdoor seating. A representative from the city spoke in one of my classes and even he pointed out how this process and its costs kept many smaller restaurants from even attempting to do that.

The city wants to control every aspect of everything a business does. Sure, it has fine foundations, but it's getting out of control and businesses are reacting.

I mean, at what level will these issues become an issue to most of yall?

40% of businesses closing? An even larger population loss? More crime?

I just don't understand.

[Handro]

Originally Posted by jtown,man

I understand enough now, it's not partisan.

Look at what businesses had to go through for SIMPLE outdoor seating. A representative from the city spoke in one of my classes and even he pointed out how this process and its costs kept many smaller restaurants from even attempting to do that.

The city wants to control every aspect of everything a business does. Sure, it has fine foundations, but it's getting out of control and businesses are reacting.

I mean, at what level will these issues become an issue to most of yall?

40% of businesses closing? An even larger population loss? More crime?

I just don't understand.

You think loosening "regulations" is the sliver bullet to reverse population loss and solve crime? Lol ok.