PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X - Page 98

summersm343 · #**1941** Posted **Sep 17, 2020, 12:47 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Londonee

You've been on here for over 10 years now and your bullishness on the stadium complex is noble and noted. But...

It's not going to happen the way you envision, not in our life time at least, and frankly - why would we want it to? Are you envisioning something like the Battery in Atlanta? That weird faux nonsense? it's never going to organically feel like a part of South Philly, period. We can't develop 8th and Market, or Penn's Landing. Or, really, Market East. Or the centrally located rail yards, let alone this hellish landscape of doom. I feel like I'm explaining to my young son that Santa isn't real, but he's not, and "all the new development down by the stadiums" is just undesirable nonsense.

But, but, but... Santa is real....

One day, there will be development down at the stadium and I'll remember that you doubted it, lol!

JohnIII · #**1942** Posted **Sep 17, 2020, 2:21 PM**

I understand I don't speak often and love skyscrapers a lot so I tend to focus on that a bit but I have a confession or maybe an admission. I'm not sure what's wrong is the Sixers staying in the Sports Complex; I'd appreciate knowing why because the reasons escape me.

To me the Sport Complex is unique to Philadelphia; its appreciated by people who come here from other cities; and it has good parking on site with good mass transit and highway access. I don't see any location near downtown that offers all of these things combined.

If we wish to spur skyscraper development then we must work on being more business friendly and market the city more internationally; not rely on a sports team because that value is limited. Let the front of the business community take care of itself.

If I had my way keep them in the Sport Complex; I'd even retrofit Mustin Air Field for private flights just for sports and rock venues so the entertainers could have a stage door to enter the city away from the public; the hanger is ther as is the control tower as archaic as it may be and the runway seems strong. I don't see where.

There may be things I'm not seeing for if there is feel free to let me know.

thoughtcriminal · #**1943** Posted **Sep 17, 2020, 2:30 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnIII

I understand I don't speak often and love skyscrapers a lot so I tend to focus on that a bit but I have a confession or maybe an admission. I'm not sure what's wrong is the Sixers staying in the Sports Complex; I'd appreciate knowing why because the reasons escape me.

To me the Sport Complex is unique to Philadelphia; its appreciated by people who come here from other cities; and it has good parking on site with good mass transit and highway access. I don't see any location near downtown that offers all of these things combined.

If we wish to spur skyscraper development then we must work on being more business friendly and market the city more internationally; not rely on a sports team because that value is limited. Let the front of the business community take care of itself.

If I had my way keep them in the Sport Complex; I'd even retrofit Mustin Air Field for private flights just for sports and rock venues so the entertainers could have a stage door to enter the city away from the public; the hanger is ther as is the control tower as archaic as it may be and the runway seems strong. I don't see where.

There may be things I'm not seeing for if there is feel free to let me know.

the reason the sixers want to leave is the same reason people leave apartments and buy homes: it is better to own than rent. it's that simple. that way they get the revenue from other events that occur in the arena.
when wells fargo was built, comcast owned both the flyers and sixers, as well as the arena, so everything was hunky dory. but since they sold the sixers, the new owners have wanted a place of their own. Part of the problem is, if they build another arena in the sports complex, it will have to compete with the WF for those other events (concerts, etc). Again, when comcast owned both the spectrum and the wells fargo, it wasn't a problem: the spectrum became the overflow place for those events, when WF was booked and couldn't accommodate some events, they went to the spectrum. but now if someone else builds another arena, the competition between the two arenas will drive rents down and take longer to realize profitability.

allovertown · #**1944** Posted **Sep 17, 2020, 2:47 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by thoughtcriminal

the reason the sixers want to leave is the same reason people leave apartments and buy homes: it is better to own than rent. it's that simple. that way they get the revenue from other events that occur in the arena.
when wells fargo was built, comcast owned both the flyers and sixers, as well as the arena, so everything was hunky dory. but since they sold the sixers, the new owners have wanted a place of their own.

Yes. This is it exactly.

I'll just add that the reason they not only want to move, but also move out of the sports complex is because owning the arena isn't just about the sixers. They want the arena to draw in revenue for them with all kinds of events and building the arena in the sports complex would make this difficult because there is already an arena there that was just completely modernized and capable of hosting anything they'd want to host.

Building an arena in center city allows them to differentiate their arena from the wells Fargo center and according to their market research have a leg up in securing the majority of the concerts and events that both arenas would be vying for.

They don't want to own one of two arenas in the sports complex. They want to own philly's only downtown arena.

McBane · #**1945** Posted **Sep 17, 2020, 2:50 PM**

IF the Sixers want to be in Center City AND expect most fans to take transit, then the stadium MUST be built within very close proximity of Regional Rail. No amount of free tickets, shuttles, or whatever other cockamamie ideas will convince your average suburbanite to take transit if the trip involves anything more than than taking a single train and a very short walk. Sorry to North Broad - but not all lines stop there and it's not downtown. No space around Suburban Station so would have to be either in the 8th and Market vicinity or around 30th St.

However, note that the Delaware Waterfront - the Sixers' Plan A - has almost no transit options and would have required a hefty dose of parking.

The other thing - and I've said this before. With all due respect to the fans that take the Broad Street line and walk 15 minutes to the stadium, driving to games is ingrained in our city's sports culture. I can't imagine any scenario in which the vast majority of fans start taking transit to Sixers games like fans have been doing for decades in Wrigley, Fenway, MSG, etc. You can't just create that culture overnight unless you literally put the arena in the heart of the city and built no parking but even still - what would prevent nearby property owners from not building a garage or forgoing development to operate a parking lot?

mcgrath618 · #**1946** Posted **Sep 17, 2020, 3:22 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by McBane

IF the Sixers want to be in Center City AND expect most fans to take transit, then the stadium MUST be built within very close proximity of Regional Rail. No amount of free tickets, shuttles, or whatever other cockamamie ideas will convince your average suburbanite to take transit if the trip involves anything more than than taking a single train and a very short walk. Sorry to North Broad - but not all lines stop there and it's not downtown. No space around Suburban Station so would have to be either in the 8th and Market vicinity or around 30th St.

However, note that the Delaware Waterfront - the Sixers' Plan A - has almost no transit options and would have required a hefty dose of parking.

The other thing - and I've said this before. With all due respect to the fans that take the Broad Street line and walk 15 minutes to the stadium, driving to games is ingrained in our city's sports culture. I can't imagine any scenario in which the vast majority of fans start taking transit to Sixers games like fans have been doing for decades in Wrigley, Fenway, MSG, etc. You can't just create that culture overnight unless you literally put the arena in the heart of the city and built no parking but even still - what would prevent nearby property owners from not building a garage or forgoing development to operate a parking lot?

Except... all lines do stop at North Broad?

JohnIII · #**1947** Posted **Sep 17, 2020, 5:00 PM**

So I see the logic of the Sixers then; is ownership and of course control of the purse strings; this is a tangles dance because how do they do this without making the public feel as if their desires are not taken into account.

It is as I suspected then but never said; interesting indeed.

I don't think 8th and Market or 30th Street District will suffice but I do know a place in Philadelphia that may suffice for the Sixers; the Auto and Junkyard regions of Southwest Philadelphia; its near the river; lots of space for parking; lots of land; near i-76; not far from the Sports Complex and this could fit with the Philly 2035 plan if they beautiful the waterfront in those sectors; a transit line could be used as well; the Airport lines goes right to the west of it and a spur could be run from there or CSX tracks over a bridge.

Redddog · #**1948** Posted **Sep 17, 2020, 5:15 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnIII

So I see the logic of the Sixers then; is ownership and of course control of the purse strings; this is a tangles dance because how do they do this without making the public feel as if their desires are not taken into account.

It is as I suspected then but never said; interesting indeed.

I don't think 8th and Market or 30th Street District will suffice but I do know a place in Philadelphia that may suffice for the Sixers; the Auto and Junkyard regions of Southwest Philadelphia; its near the river; lots of space for parking; lots of land; near i-76; not far from the Sports Complex and this could fit with the Philly 2035 plan if they beautiful the waterfront in those sectors; a transit line could be used as well; the Airport lines goes right to the west of it and a spur could be run from there or CSX tracks over a bridge.

I can see your reasoning. But I think the ownership wants to be in a bustling, destination city environmennt. They want events that will pull people in not only to see the event but to experience the event in an environment that has a pre and post event vibe. A place where people can walk, from their downtown hotel, to dinner, a few bars, the event, then a few bars and home to your hotel room. Like say...MSG.

That ain't happening in South Philly.

I think a backdoor straight from the airport to the stage or locker room is convenient and all. But so is a 15 minute drive from the airport to the Ritz.

For the record, I think that they should build a new stadium in the sprts complex and somehow, design a "main street" type layout with bars, restaurants and some shopping with a few hotels that range in price range. Maybe develop some landscaping plan to tie the whole complex together. It'd probably still be cheaper than making 8th and Market work (though, I'm gonna lose it if that site sits as a parking lot for another few years). But the heart wants what the heart wants.

I'm just glad they've committed to Philly and we're not gonna have to cross the delaware to get to a game.

Mark in Mount Airy · #**1949** Posted **Sep 17, 2020, 5:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by DudeGuy

Yeah, I used to live in DC and went to many Wizards / Capitals games. I think that's why I'm so onboard with a downtown stadium in Philly.

The reason some of these other downtown stadiums were built was because the areas in which they were built were crappy to begin with. DC put their arena in a really run-down area near what was then Chinatown (I lived in DC for 10 years up to the early 90s and their downtown was abysmal). Center City hasn't been crappy since the Convention Center was built, the available land is getting built out, and low-rises and old parking garages are getting demolished and taller buildings rebuilt. We don't need an arena in Center City -- there is plenty demand by commercial builders, as the Penn's Landing bidding process shows -- and what won out there is better than a big windowless box. Turning back the clock, the downtown Phillies Stadium was going to be shoe-horned into a neighborhood like Wrigley -- who needed that? The South Philadelphia Sports Complex is an under-utilized asset, but if you want the dense, urban experience, then North Broad Street is a place that ticks off a lot of boxes.

philly_account12 · #**1950** Posted **Sep 17, 2020, 5:49 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnIII

So I see the logic of the Sixers then; is ownership and of course control of the purse strings; this is a tangles dance because how do they do this without making the public feel as if their desires are not taken into account.

The Sixers ownership has shown time and time again that they have a very low opinion of the public. This is a group that thought leaking their proposal a week early and hiring a PR firm would get them selected for an RFP that was almost the exact opposite of what they proposed. They're going to choose to do what they think is best for themselves and then try to change the narrative afterwards.

Another point that a lot of people seem to be missing are that this new stadium is absolutely not about the Sixers basketball team. It is first and foremost a concert/event space and suggestions and discussions need to be framed around that idea or they're completely off base from the start. If a stadium gets built there are going to be 41 nights of Sixers games and 150+ nights of concerts/events each year. The priority is whatever is going to help them land as many other events as possible and not what is best for Sixers fans.

McBane · #**1951** Posted **Sep 17, 2020, 6:13 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Except... all lines do stop at North Broad?

Does it? I double checked SEPTA's website and no.

blorkishdork · #**1952** Posted **Sep 17, 2020, 6:34 PM**

McBane, the trains do not stop as of now, but all trains must physically go through the station. It would be easy for SEPTA to change the schedules and have all trains stop at North Broad Station. But you are correct you won't see it on the schedules because not all trains/Lines stop at North Broad Station. Which is why the North Station district is such a good idea (generally), it is very centrally located when considering public transit.

3rd&Brown · #**1953** Posted **Sep 17, 2020, 6:48 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by McBane

IF the Sixers want to be in Center City AND expect most fans to take transit, then the stadium MUST be built within very close proximity of Regional Rail. No amount of free tickets, shuttles, or whatever other cockamamie ideas will convince your average suburbanite to take transit if the trip involves anything more than than taking a single train and a very short walk. Sorry to North Broad - but not all lines stop there and it's not downtown. No space around Suburban Station so would have to be either in the 8th and Market vicinity or around 30th St.

However, note that the Delaware Waterfront - the Sixers' Plan A - has almost no transit options and would have required a hefty dose of parking.

The other thing - and I've said this before. With all due respect to the fans that take the Broad Street line and walk 15 minutes to the stadium, driving to games is ingrained in our city's sports culture. I can't imagine any scenario in which the vast majority of fans start taking transit to Sixers games like fans have been doing for decades in Wrigley, Fenway, MSG, etc. You can't just create that culture overnight unless you literally put the arena in the heart of the city and built no parking but even still - what would prevent nearby property owners from not building a garage or forgoing development to operate a parking lot?

While I agree with the commentary on needing to be near Regional Rail, at some level, they're building for the future, not the existing stubborn fan base.

For every person who stops going to a game because there isn't "easy" parking, there will likely be 2 more who go because it's convenient in a way that it wasn't before. For every person who's driving from Glassboro or Mullica Hill and must have parking, there is probably a fan from Glenside or Ardmore or Media who isn't going because they don't want to sit in traffic in a parking lot for 45 minutes after the game. Or worse, leave 30 minutes early to miss the traffic.

It's all a wash.

Groundhog · #**1954** Posted **Sep 17, 2020, 7:29 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redddog

I'm just glad they've committed to Philly and we're not gonna have to cross the delaware to get to a game.

Did they? I missed that and still am betting that they, unfortunately, end up in Camden when all is said and done.

Knight Hospitaller · #**1955** Posted **Sep 17, 2020, 7:37 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by allovertown

They don't want to own one of two arenas in the sports complex. They want to own philly's only CENTER CITY arena.

Fixed it for youse. Sow-philly is "downtown."

Knight Hospitaller · #**1956** Posted **Sep 17, 2020, 7:42 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Did they? I missed that and still am betting that they, unfortunately, end up in Camden when all is said and done.

People seem to want NOT to believe "allovertown." It's Center City and Center City only. If they want to be the only game in that part of town, and have a leg up based on location, adding another performance venue to the Camden waterfront (even if one not partially outdoors) doesn't accomplish that. There's no other draw there. Might as well be another parking lot like the sports complex. Likewise, they're not going to try to make North Broad a destination. They want to be in the heart of things. Honestly, I thought Penn's Landing was not the best way for them to get what they want.

allovertown · #**1957** Posted **Sep 17, 2020, 8:32 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knight Hospitaller

People seem to want NOT to believe "allovertown." It's Center City and Center City only. If they want to be the only game in that part of town, and have a leg up based on location, adding another performance venue to the Camden waterfront (even if one not partially outdoors) doesn't accomplish that. There's no other draw there. Might as well be another parking lot like the sports complex. Likewise, they're not going to try to make North Broad a destination. They want to be in the heart of things. Honestly, I thought Penn's Landing was not the best way for them to get what they want.

Lol even if people don't want to believe me and my source they did say publicly that they're committed to finding a location in Philly.

Honestly I thought Camden would and eventually still could be used as a bargaining chip. The tax revenue the city receives because sixers games take place in Philly is not insignificant. But if they do try to use it, it is a bluff.

Redddog · #**1958** Posted **Sep 17, 2020, 9:34 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by allovertown

Lol even if people don't want to believe me and my source they did say publicly that they're committed to finding a location in Philly.

Honestly I thought Camden would and eventually still could be used as a bargaining chip. The tax revenue the city receives because sixers games take place in Philly is not insignificant. But if they do try to use it, it is a bluff.

I thought they specifically said they were "committed to Philadelphia."

chris08876 · #**1959** Posted **Sep 17, 2020, 11:50 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat

Probably new Air Products HQ

Thanks. Drove by today and it is indeed the new AirProducts HQ.

City Wide · #**1960** Posted **Sep 18, 2020, 4:37 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by allovertown

Lol even if people don't want to believe me and my source they did say publicly that they're committed to finding a location in Philly.

Honestly I thought Camden would and eventually still could be used as a bargaining chip. The tax revenue the city receives because sixers games take place in Philly is not insignificant. But if they do try to use it, it is a bluff.

I'm more then willing to accept your source that they want to be in control of their own building/environment and want to be in CC. But beyond that theres still alot of unknowns, like is their thinking that there has to be a large pile of public money involved and are they thinking primarily about the 50 dates the basketball team will be using the space or the 100+ dates something else might be taking place? And is this all just part of a long term plan to maximize the value of what they have to sell in X number of years?

My guess is that Harris and company would like to build something where the ticket holder comes directly into their complex, empties their wallet at any number of cash registers, and then goes home; where the City should want the stadium to be a place where you watch a game or a concert or an event of some type, have a overpriced hot dog and a beer, but be in a area where there are a variety of other places to spend money at, to be a big part of the neighborhood, but certainly not the only part.

I keep thinking about 30th St. Station area as a place where the State and City might be able to take on part of the costs----like building the platform over the tracks and bringing utilities to the site----which could benefit the whole site not just one building, and then be in a position of strength to negotiate with Harris to get something good for the City and not just give into whatever Harris wants. The City can rightfully say that unless its something that makes very good sense for the City, Harris can either build in the sports complex or stay where the Sixer's already are.

Harris might not get the stadium he wants, but at 30th St. there would be room for other options for him to capitalize on, such as a hotel, apartment or office tower. One unknown is Amtrak, certainly not a outfit that the City has much control of-----just ask SEPTA.