PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[ScreamShatter]

As far as parks, North Delaware Ave by Northbank needs a park badly. Penn’s Treaty isn’t large enough for the amount of development that direction, and the area around Fishtown lacks green space outside of Penn Treaty and Norris Square.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

I think then part of the issue is where these tax dollars are going. What is the city providing me by taking my money? For instance, if I go to Bryn Mawr instead, I'll have cleaner streets and less crime.

Obviously I am not of that line of thinking, but certainly others have used similar logic to justify leaving the city for the 'burbs. They might even end up paying more taxes in Montco, but they feel as if though they're at least getting their money's worth.

We've discussed city services on here ad nauseam, but certainly if the city could get things like street sweeping, more efficient garbage collection, and even better, public transit, you'd probably see a lot less whining about taxes.

I would discuss what I saw this past weekend in another larger city to our north, but I might draw the ire of some other posters on this forum in doing so. Therefore, all I'll say is: Philly needs to fund public transit and parks.

These simplistic comparisons are pointless. The government is not the same as the demographics of a given place- this is common sense. Can you think of any reasons why Bryn Mawr has less problems than Philadelphia? Do you really think its because the government is that much more efficient? People will always be leaving the City- it doesn't matter what tax rate is charged. As long as the suburbs are richer, cleaner, safer and offer larger homes, yards and better funded schools that are attended by a higher income demographic people will leaving for the suburbs or for other regions. That will not change.

The City doesnt run SEPTA or fund it for the most part- they have very little influence over SEPTA so that is a totally separate issue.

Ive lived in Philly for quite some time, garbage collection has never really been an issue. That is amongst the least of our issues. I think the point of the analysis was that the notion that any additional tax revenue should be off the table isn't sound- especially if that revenue were targeted to mitigate some of the issues plaguing citizens. Also, the data undermines the idea that other cites are doing more with less- they are not.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by summersm343

I generally agree that Philly's tax "burden" tends to be overblown from time to time... however, even you can't deny that some taxes (primarily wage tax) are just simply too high in the city.

A lot of it though also has to do with the WAY things are taxed. Shifting taxes off things that CAN move (people and businesses) and onto things that CAN'T move (property) will go a long way.

For residents - reducing the wage tax to 2% and bumping the residential property tax a smidge would go a long way.

For business - eliminating the BIRT and U&O taxes entirely and bumping up commercial property taxes to accommodate for the loses there will also help tremendously.

everyone is not in favor of higher property taxes. SOME people are in favor of it- primarily those that view low business/wage taxes as a panacea. There is a reason you don't have tons of politicians (you know, the folks you are continuously insulting as lacking any form of intelligence) pushing for a significant shift of tax burden to home owners- its called voters. While Paul Levy and other folks who have a very pro business agenda have invested lots of effort in pushing the idea of making Philadelphia more reliant on (higher) property taxes, this is not a popular notion amongst homeowners. WHen Nutter pushed AVI which led to higher taxes and more money for the school district he was crucified. Several programs were created to lessen the blow on seniors and long time home owners who were up in arms of the higher property taxes. The only way around it would be to have separate tax rate on commercial properties (which is now probably a questionable silver bullet in the era of remote work) which isnt allowed in PA.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

Our parks are generally good, but we need more of them, and the ones in Center City need some love (mainly Logan, Franklin, and the Parkway). And I am reserving any judgement on the Parkway redesign until I see it happen (although, to tie it into the earlier discussion, I was very disappointed to not see any discussion of rail transit along either the Parkway or along the City Branch).

Tens of millions have been put into the parkway in recent years, most recently as part of the PennDOT bridge replacement project. It's also clean and in better condition than most parks in the City- that is absolutely NOT where dollars need to be focused at this point.

All of the projects people are talking about cost money and more maintenance costs money. The City has cut spending on parks and rec maintenance over the years in the name of pushing money to higher priorities. There is only so much money to go around and over the past few decades it has been decided that is a part of the budget you can squeeze and get the fewest complaints from citizens.

[Vince_]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

As far as parks, North Delaware Ave by Northbank needs a park badly. Penn’s Treaty isn’t large enough for the amount of development that direction, and the area around Fishtown lacks green space outside of Penn Treaty and Norris Square.

This is where it really pisses me off that the parcel of neglected city land at Front and Widley was given to a citizen. While it's awesome he took care of the land, it should not become his property. And if it does, he should have to pay the property taxes on it. It should have become a public park, not his own backyard. Name the park after him and build a pocket park for the greater good of the city.

https://www.inquirer.com/news/suprem...-20190926.html

Also this might be controversial but Palmer Cemetery should be changed into a park. In 1946 the city condemned Lafayette Cemetery, moved the tombstones to Bensalem and turned it into what we know as Capitolo Playground next to Pat's and Geno's. Washington Square was a mass grave for revolutionary war soldiers.

But this can also be handled terribly like Temple University buying Monument Cemetery at Broad and Berks. Unclaimed tombstones were used as rubble at the base of the Betsy Ross Bridge.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument_Cemetery

[ok-ez]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

As far as parks, North Delaware Ave by Northbank needs a park badly. Penn’s Treaty isn’t large enough for the amount of development that direction, and the area around Fishtown lacks green space outside of Penn Treaty and Norris Square.

are you not aware graffiti pier is becoming a park right next to northbank?

it appears northern liberties will never get a waterfront park.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by cardeza

Tens of millions have been put into the parkway in recent years, most recently as part of the PennDOT bridge replacement project. It's also clean and in better condition than most parks in the City- that is absolutely NOT where dollars need to be focused at this point.

All of the projects people are talking about cost money and more maintenance costs money. The City has cut spending on parks and rec maintenance over the years in the name of pushing money to higher priorities. There is only so much money to go around and over the past few decades it has been decided that is a part of the budget you can squeeze and get the fewest complaints from citizens.

...but it's proven that parks and access to well maintained green space reduces crime and gun violence.

New research finds that well-designed and -maintained urban parks can reduce gun violence, improve safety and keep residents healthier, while poorly-designed and -maintained parks lead to more crime.

https://www.human.cornell.edu/dea/sp...20more%20crime.

So, once again, I point to the sheer incompetency of our city leadership for cutting park funding.

Furthermore, there are MANY ways to generate funding for parks and green space. The city has wised up and started doing this with newer parks lately like Dilworth, Love, Sister Cities, etc..... by placing cafes, restaurants and other revenue generating places in parks.... by doing this, you can generate a revenue stream for the park to self fund itself. Pretty easy economics once again...

For instance, in Fairmount Park itself, there's only ONE cafe in Boathouse Row. There should be at least two cafes, and two restaurants overlooking the river.

There should be a constant Parks on Tap that moves around Fairmount Park every season to generate funds for the park.

There could be a "Fairmount Park Marathon" that generates funds for the park.

Reopen Lemon Hill as a museum and garden with a restaurant inside that serves breakfast, lunch and afternoon tea.

Open a cafe and beer garden in the Carousel House. It's currently sitting empty.

Etc. Etc.

[William Van Alen]

Originally Posted by cardeza

everyone is not in favor of higher property taxes. SOME people are in favor of it- primarily those that view low business/wage taxes as a panacea. There is a reason you don't have tons of politicians (you know, the folks you are continuously insulting as lacking any form of intelligence) pushing for a significant shift of tax burden to home owners- its called voters. While Paul Levy and other folks who have a very pro business agenda have invested lots of effort in pushing the idea of making Philadelphia more reliant on (higher) property taxes, this is not a popular notion amongst homeowners. WHen Nutter pushed AVI which led to higher taxes and more money for the school district he was crucified. Several programs were created to lessen the blow on seniors and long time home owners who were up in arms of the higher property taxes. The only way around it would be to have separate tax rate on commercial properties (which is now probably a questionable silver bullet in the era of remote work) which isnt allowed in PA.

I think Levy's idea is more about shifting the burden of commercial taxes towards property instead of businesses/wages. Not sure if he's into increasing property taxes for homeowners as much. Don't quote me on that, but I believe that's his stance. The idea being that property taxes typically get passed through to commercial tenants anyway and that our office rents are already quite low so a national tenant wouldn't be turned away by a few more dollars in rent in an already cheap market, but they likely are turning away from having to pay what they see as "extra" taxes to the city.

If home taxes were increased, I would bet Levy would say that increasing them is only a good thing so long as city wage taxes are decreasing in equal proportion.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by William Van Alen

I think Levy's idea is more about shifting the burden of commercial taxes towards property instead of businesses/wages. Not sure if he's into increasing property taxes for homeowners as much. Don't quote me on that, but I believe that's his stance. The idea being that property taxes typically get passed through to commercial tenants anyway and that our office rents are already quite low so a national tenant wouldn't be turned away by a few more dollars in rent in an already cheap market, but they likely are turning away from having to pay what they see as "extra" taxes to the city.

If home taxes were increased, I would bet Levy would say that increasing them is only a good thing so long as city wage taxes are decreasing in equal proportion.

Correct. Thank you

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by ok-ez

are you not aware graffiti pier is becoming a park right next to northbank?

it appears northern liberties will never get a waterfront park.

I am. My point is parks on Del Ave should be prioritized because there’s such a gap in green space in those areas today.

[Urbanthusiat]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

I am. My point is parks on Del Ave should be prioritized because there’s such a gap in green space in those areas today.

Fortunately the Durst tower and Festival Pier developments will add some green space along Delaware Ave

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

I am. My point is parks on Del Ave should be prioritized because there’s such a gap in green space in those areas today.

I don't disagree with you, but I think there is a lot coming.

From South Street to Graffiti Pier we'll have:

-The Delaware River Trail the entire length
-Durst lower Penn's Landing development which will incorporate green/outdoor space
-Philadelphia Vietnam Veteran's Memorial
-Beirut Memorial & Philadelphia Korean War Memorial Park
-Spruce Street Harbor Park
-I-95 Cap Park
-Durst upper Penn's Landing development around Market/Chestnut will incorporate green/outdoor space
-Cherry Street Pier
-Race Street Pier
-Durst 300 N. Columbus building will have a park/green space
-Development at Festival Pier will incorporate park/green space
-Penn Treaty Park
-The Battery development in and around the old PECO building will incorporate outdoor/green space
-The entire Northbank development incorporates green/outdoor space
-Graffiti Pier will be turned into a legit park

I would say that's a ton of green space in the area with absolutely the opportunity to add even more.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by summersm343

I don't disagree with you, but I think there is a lot coming.

From South Street to Graffiti Pier we'll have:

-The Delaware River Trail the entire length
-Durst lower Penn's Landing development which will incorporate green/outdoor space
-Philadelphia Vietnam Veteran's Memorial
-Beirut Memorial & Philadelphia Korean War Memorial Park
-Spruce Street Harbor Park
-I-95 Cap Park
-Durst upper Penn's Landing development around Market/Chestnut will incorporate green/outdoor space
-Cherry Street Pier
-Race Street Pier
-Durst 300 N. Columbus building will have a park/green space
-Development at Festival Pier will incorporate park/green space
-Penn Treaty Park
-The Battery development in and around the old PECO building will incorporate outdoor/green space
-The entire Northbank development incorporates green/outdoor space
-Graffiti Pier will be turned into a legit park

I would say that's a ton of green space in the area with absolutely the opportunity to add even more.

Makes sense. I suppose my impatience is coming through.

[philly_account12]

Originally Posted by summersm343

I don't disagree with you, but I think there is a lot coming......

You could even add the public spaces underneath I95 being put in as part of the 95 Revive project. The area underneath the Girard/95 interchange that is across the street from Northbank is basically going to be one big public park (I don't think it'll be great, but still lol).

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

As far as parks, North Delaware Ave by Northbank needs a park badly. Penn’s Treaty isn’t large enough for the amount of development that direction, and the area around Fishtown lacks green space outside of Penn Treaty and Norris Square.

As someone who spends a ton of time in this area (the bike path/Delaware river trail is absolutely awesome and I highly recommend checking it out if anyone hasn't), one of the last things this area needs is more open space. This area desperately needs residents way more than it needs green area, but you're right that more residents are coming.

I also think that after the Battery project is done Penn Treaty will feel a lot larger than it does right now. The construction fencing coming down will add another 10 feet or so to the park and the river trail continuing past the Battery and into Northbank will make the park a lot more open and connected on the riverfront side which should make a big difference.

[ok-ez]

agreed this guy is a goon and often can be seen riding around sidewalks and parks illegally with his kid in his gocart. Usually I'm all for the little guy, but this guy knew what he was doing all along and owns the big lot next to this lot. I'm also not certain he'll get it. There was talk of another appeal and it's still listed as city property.

Originally Posted by Vince_

This is where it really pisses me off that the parcel of neglected city land at Front and Widley was given to a citizen. While it's awesome he took care of the land, it should not become his property. And if it does, he should have to pay the property taxes on it. It should have become a public park, not his own backyard. Name the park after him and build a pocket park for the greater good of the city.

https://www.inquirer.com/news/suprem...-20190926.html

Also this might be controversial but Palmer Cemetery should be changed into a park. In 1946 the city condemned Lafayette Cemetery, moved the tombstones to Bensalem and turned it into what we know as Capitolo Playground next to Pat's and Geno's. Washington Square was a mass grave for revolutionary war soldiers.

But this can also be handled terribly like Temple University buying Monument Cemetery at Broad and Berks. Unclaimed tombstones were used as rubble at the base of the Betsy Ross Bridge.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monument_Cemetery

[ok-ez]

while we're talking 95 the revive folks are taking public input for northern liberties south to the cap. Please consider telling them to remove the "great wall of china" and put 95 on a series of overpasses like port richmond and south philly thereby better connecting northern liberties to its waterfront https://aecomviz.com/I95-CSP-360/?fb...toVYWe2y9tOnsw <-link to survey

Originally Posted by philly_account12

You could even add the public spaces underneath I95 being put in as part of the 95 Revive project. The area underneath the Girard/95 interchange that is across the street from Northbank is basically going to be one big public park (I don't think it'll be great, but still lol).



As someone who spends a ton of time in this area (the bike path/Delaware river trail is absolutely awesome and I highly recommend checking it out if anyone hasn't), one of the last things this area needs is more open space. This area desperately needs residents way more than it needs green area, but you're right that more residents are coming.

I also think that after the Battery project is done Penn Treaty will feel a lot larger than it does right now. The construction fencing coming down will add another 10 feet or so to the park and the river trail continuing past the Battery and into Northbank will make the park a lot more open and connected on the riverfront side which should make a big difference.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by summersm343

...but it's proven that parks and access to well maintained green space reduces crime and gun violence.


https://www.human.cornell.edu/dea/sp...20more%20crime.

So, once again, I point to the sheer incompetency of our city leadership for cutting park funding.

Furthermore, there are MANY ways to generate funding for parks and green space. The city has wised up and started doing this with newer parks lately like Dilworth, Love, Sister Cities, etc..... by placing cafes, restaurants and other revenue generating places in parks.... by doing this, you can generate a revenue stream for the park to self fund itself. Pretty easy economics once again...

For instance, in Fairmount Park itself, there's only ONE cafe in Boathouse Row. There should be at least two cafes, and two restaurants overlooking the river.

There should be a constant Parks on Tap that moves around Fairmount Park every season to generate funds for the park.

There could be a "Fairmount Park Marathon" that generates funds for the park.

Reopen Lemon Hill as a museum and garden with a restaurant inside that serves breakfast, lunch and afternoon tea.

Open a cafe and beer garden in the Carousel House. It's currently sitting empty.

Etc. Etc.

I've been rather disagreeable lately so I just wanted to stop by and say I wholeheartedly agree with this post. Parks, greenspace, really any material improvement to a community reduces crime! It's been proven time and again by study after study. What's especially frustrating is that in many way Philly in the 90s was a place where a lot of these studies were being done! Groups like Philadelphia LandCare cleaned up trash and planted grass and trees in vacant lots, etc. and the effect was pretty remarkable. This was once a place where we were learning firsthand how much small aesthetic improvements can have a positive impact in a community. I mean this goal has been somewhat lost over the years but that was what the Mural arts program was about as well. What was once an ugly exposed party wall in a decaying neighborhood full of vacant lots is now a beautiful mural next to green lot filled with trees. The fact that we've forgotten these lessons and turned our back on them is saddening.

And to your point about funding, this is something I've been saying forever. Schuylkill Banks has been such an enormous success and is absolutely teeming with people. How the city doesn't have a bunch of small concessions type businesses to raise funding is just remarkable. It would be a worthwhile service that people would appreciate and would gladly fork over money to enjoy.

Another area that could bring in some money is the National Park. The Park service does such a shitty job there and there is so much unused green space and so many tourists around. I don't know what the National Park has control over and what Philly can do, but the three blocks bounded by 2nd and 5th to the East and West and Chestnut and Walnut to the North and South are completely unused. People from all over the world come to that area of the city, how hard would it be to put up some cafes and stuff like that. Hell, you could even build some storefronts on that land and lease them out.

In general, Philly needs to be more proactive, for most tourists the National Park is the face of Philadelphia, we shouldn't allow things to look shitty over there just because the federal government isn't fulfilling their obligations.

And then if you extract money where the people are, you can start to use that money to spend it where it's really needed. Parks are important for so many reasons.

[aprice1828]

Originally Posted by ok-ez

while we're talking 95 the revive folks are taking public input for northern liberties south to the cap. Please consider telling them to remove the "great wall of china" and put 95 on a series of overpasses like port richmond and south philly thereby better connecting northern liberties to its waterfront https://aecomviz.com/I95-CSP-360/?fb...toVYWe2y9tOnsw <-link to survey

With the exception of Poplar St, 95 already is on overpasses? If you're proposing replacing the earth fill with concrete supports, I'm not sure if you've spent much time under interstates but they're kind of miserable places, mostly because of the noise. The example you gave in Port Richmond is a fenced off dirt patch with a few spots of weeds.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by summersm343

...but it's proven that parks and access to well maintained green space reduces crime and gun violence.


https://www.human.cornell.edu/dea/sp...20more%20crime.

So, once again, I point to the sheer incompetency of our city leadership for cutting park funding.

Furthermore, there are MANY ways to generate funding for parks and green space. The city has wised up and started doing this with newer parks lately like Dilworth, Love, Sister Cities, etc..... by placing cafes, restaurants and other revenue generating places in parks.... by doing this, you can generate a revenue stream for the park to self fund itself. Pretty easy economics once again...

For instance, in Fairmount Park itself, there's only ONE cafe in Boathouse Row. There should be at least two cafes, and two restaurants overlooking the river.

There should be a constant Parks on Tap that moves around Fairmount Park every season to generate funds for the park.

There could be a "Fairmount Park Marathon" that generates funds for the park.

Reopen Lemon Hill as a museum and garden with a restaurant inside that serves breakfast, lunch and afternoon tea.

Open a cafe and beer garden in the Carousel House. It's currently sitting empty.

Etc. Etc.

I didnt say I agreed with having less money for parks, I simply stated a fact- that the % of the budget dedicated to parks and rec has declined over the years as money has gone to plug other holes or fund other initiatives. There is a finite amount of funding and if you are trying to maintain or reduce tax levels you end up robbing peter to pay paul at times. Something always suffers.

[cardeza]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Correct. Thank you

It doesnt matter since the PA constitution won't allow different tax rates. So the only way to do it within the bounds of the law would be to increase the millage rate and decrease other taxes. The City could do that without requiring any permission or cooperation from Harrisburg.