PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread X

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by allovertown

What is a Chesterbrook?

Hahaha. Whoops. Meant to post that in the Philadelphia Metro thread.

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by allovertown

What is a Chesterbrook?

[therealdawk]

Ben Simmons is selling his 3,079 sq ft Ritz Residence condo for $3.1M. Any predictions on whether he'll get that price or how long it will stay listed?

With all of the development going on I'm interested to see what the market is for a place like this.

Simmons purchased his place at the Ritz for $2.54 million in 2018. It has three bedrooms and 4.5 baths and is 3,079 square feet. The residence comes with two underground parking spots, access to a fitness center and pool, and valet parking.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by therealdawk

Ben Simmons is selling his 3,079 sq ft Ritz Residence condo for $3.1M. Any predictions on whether he'll get that price or how long it will stay listed?

With all of the development going on I'm interested to see what the market is for a place like this.

Simmons purchased his place at the Ritz for $2.54 million in 2018. It has three bedrooms and 4.5 baths and is 3,079 square feet. The residence comes with two underground parking spots, access to a fitness center and pool, and valet parking.

Definitely isn't getting 3.1 mil. He put in a hoop in the living room to practice his free throw shooting. Hoop is in fine shape, but the wall around the hoop is now severely damaged. I hear it's structural, Ritz may have to be demolished.

[Jerryiz]

Originally Posted by allovertown

Definitely isn't getting 3.1 mil. He put in a hoop in the living room to practice his free throw shooting. Hoop is in fine shape, but the wall around the hoop is now severely damaged. I hear it's structural, Ritz may have to be demolished.

You mean from all the BRICKS he shoots? LOL

[justremember]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Arena ownership is just as important as selling out (along with broadcast rigths), as, as long as they're putting out a good product, they'll get butts in seats. While I agree with Philadelphia brand is better than South Jersey, I don't think that's as big a part of their equation (they'd still keep Philadelphia branding, etc.).

The issue is there's 300 days a year where no basketball is happening. How does an arena in Camden (vs. South Philly) help them maximize the profitability of those days?

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by justremember

The issue is there's 300 days a year where no basketball is happening. How does an arena in Camden (vs. South Philly) help them maximize the profitability of those days?

The same way Wells Fargo does - concerts and other events. A big chunk of a sports team's value comes from arena ownership because it diversifies the team beyond just the one sport.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

The same way Wells Fargo does - concerts and other events. A big chunk of a sports team's value comes from arena ownership because it diversifies the team beyond just the one sport.

But the question is, why would anyone decide to book a venue in Camden VS. One in the sports complex? It's not like there is an actual problem with the wells Fargo center as a venue, the problem as far as the sixers owners are concerned is simply that they don't own it.

Trying to secure events in a Camden arena would be difficult as even with a brand new arena, most events would probably prefer South Philly over Camden. I'm bullish on Camden long term, but I don't think the chances of it becoming an evening entertainment destination anytime soon are very high. It would be largely functionally similar to the Wells Fargo center in that it would be a place that you travel to, see the event and then leave without doing much else at the actual location. The difference would be that for most in the metro, Camden is a more difficult commute by car and likely by transit as well and then there's also the negative perceptible of crime. On top of all this, there's already a large concert venue in Camden you'd be competing with as well.

The sixers owners are skilled at if nothing else blinking every last dime out of the system as they can, but at the end of the day this will still amount to a major investment and they'll be sure to maximize their return on that investment. They view a downtown styled arena as the best way to do that. They see that as an advantage over the wells Fargo center in getting all kinds of events and it would also allow them to profit from things such as bars and restaurants located within the arena complex that don't even require an event.

Every location they're seriously considering is in center city or center city adjacent. They have no interest in building an arena in Camden.

[Vince_]

If the Sixers/city could pull off an arena at 8th and Market it would be one the most transformational projects to ever happen in Philadelphia. That area is still so unjustifiably grimy when a lot of the area along Market has gotten way better (East Market project, Gallery etc). Imagine having 200+ (WFC has over 300 but that's with Flyers) events per year there with 20,000 people using Septa/Patco, using the hotels, walking around and going to bars/restaurants...

sorry if that's off topic but I was just by the area and so disappointed that the 2nd most accessible intersection of the city was so meh.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by allovertown

But the question is, why would anyone decide to book a venue in Camden VS. One in the sports complex? It's not like there is an actual problem with the wells Fargo center as a venue, the problem as far as the sixers owners are concerned is simply that they don't own it.

Trying to secure events in a Camden arena would be difficult as even with a brand new arena, most events would probably prefer South Philly over Camden. I'm bullish on Camden long term, but I don't think the chances of it becoming an evening entertainment destination anytime soon are very high. It would be largely functionally similar to the Wells Fargo center in that it would be a place that you travel to, see the event and then leave without doing much else at the actual location. The difference would be that for most in the metro, Camden is a more difficult commute by car and likely by transit as well and then there's also the negative perceptible of crime. On top of all this, there's already a large concert venue in Camden you'd be competing with as well.

The sixers owners are skilled at if nothing else blinking every last dime out of the system as they can, but at the end of the day this will still amount to a major investment and they'll be sure to maximize their return on that investment. They view a downtown styled arena as the best way to do that. They see that as an advantage over the wells Fargo center in getting all kinds of events and it would also allow them to profit from things such as bars and restaurants located within the arena complex that don't even require an event.

Every location they're seriously considering is in center city or center city adjacent. They have no interest in building an arena in Camden.

While I understand your logic, I completely disagree. I don't see the barriers to securing an event in Camden vs South Philly. It's two sides of the same river. As you state, there's already a successful and established venue in Camden - only that arena is on a different scale and fully outdoor compared to what a new basketball stadium would offer. This is similar as to how the Wells Fargo has to compete with the Linc and Citizens Bank across the street (as well as BB&T, if you consider it a direct competitor). They have PATCO and highways just as the stadiums do (and easier access to highways than most downtown stadiums would).

I 100% agree that the 6ers ownership is looking to maximize return and I think a lot of that will come down to playing the city/state against our neighbors to the east. In recent years, NJ has been a lot more willing to finance companies and attractions coming to Camden than we have been to PA (and I'm not arguing that we should be using public money to finance this stuff at all). That really is the biggest factor in profitability. If you have entertainment product that's somewhat inelastic, shifting the location slightly will not be as big of a factor as the public financing. I think NJ is willing to open their pockets to the 6ers far more than PA is and that could be the deciding factor.

I'm not saying Camden is a slam dunk. I'm not saying it's my preference (far from it). I'm just saying it's a serious contender.

Stadiums revitalizing neighborhoods is a myth and I'd have serious space and traffic concerns about a Center City location (you can say take the subway as much as you want, but only some people will actually do it - I'd be one of them). Personally, I think something like the Verizon Center in Center City would be disappointing. That building has no gameday atmosphere. Something by Penn's Landing would be interesting, but public transit would be an issue. I'd prefer both to Camden, but I still wouldn't rule them out.

My dream would be that they build a BIGGER complex in the stadium complex. My WILDEST DREAM would be to put it right at the entrance to the Navy Yard (overlooking FDR Park) in the renovated belly of the SS United States, which would not only develop the most unique stadium in the country, but also spur the Navy Yard extension to the Broad Street line. The chances of that happening are exactly 0%. The chances of Camden taking it are substantially higher.

[PHL10]

As far as the idea of a Camden arena, of course it could work. But from a macro standpoint, putting a well used entertainment venue on the side of the river where only 20% (?) of the metro population resides seems counterintuitive. So you make 4 out of 5 fans coming to the game cross a tolled bridge to get there and back?

[PhilliesPhan]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: Broad and Lehigh would be a great spot for a stadium not expected to come to fruition until the late 2020s/early 2030s (I forget exactly when). Broad and Lehigh has great access to the Broad Street Line, 12 of the 13 Regional Rail Lines, and even Amtrak. The new line of demarcation for development east of Broad has to be at least Dauphin Street nowadays (some projects west of Front Street reach as far north as Huntingdon Street), and it is at least Susquehanna on the west side of Broad. Additionally, some development has been occurring between Lehigh and Allegheny within the past 1-2 years.

I know that it will never happen, but my dream would be to bring sports back to North Philadelphia. In my perfect world, the Sixers would buy the large parcel of land that the Baker Bowl used to sit on, along with several vacant plots of land in the surrounding area. Simultaneously, SEPTA, Amtrak, and PennDOT would collaborate to completely redo North Philadelphia Station, while SEPTA would bring high-level platforms to North Broad Station and restore express service to the BSL's North Philadelphia stop. Hopefully, in that time, the North Station District will be fully underway, Lehigh Avenue would finally see some new mixed-use development, and North Broad between Dauphin and Glenwood would see a few high-density proposals.

[mcgrath618]

I've actually said the same thing. Broad and Lehigh is the perfect place. Checks all of the boxes.

[justremember]

Broad & Lehigh could work. From an personal ethical/philosophical standpoint I'd be concerned what that would mean for long-term residents of that area, but I'm not convinced we can't do two things (I think city government's role in negotiating the inevitable deal such an arena would require would include making sure it's structured in a way that people already living in the neighborhood get to experience the benifits of the new development).

Putting the Sixers adjacent to Temple and all the history there could help establish the area as the heart of the city's basketball culture. If done right it could be a point of pride and destination for (especially POC) tourists.

I'd say it's my second choice after 30th Street, which is even better in terms of transit, could synergize with the existing energy in that area, and isn't an economically vulnerable residential community.

Either way, I don't see the Sixers moving outside of the city. It doesn't match with what they want to accomplish. They want to compete with WFC by being distinct. South Philly doesn't accomplish that, and neither does Camden. They need to be more closely connected with the urban core (again, 30th Street)

[thoughtcriminal]

why are we talking about a basketball arena in the Highrise section? there are other threads where this discussion would fit better.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

While I understand your logic, I completely disagree. I don't see the barriers to securing an event in Camden vs South Philly. It's two sides of the same river. As you state, there's already a successful and established venue in Camden - only that arena is on a different scale and fully outdoor compared to what a new basketball stadium would offer. This is similar as to how the Wells Fargo has to compete with the Linc and Citizens Bank across the street (as well as BB&T, if you consider it a direct competitor). They have PATCO and highways just as the stadiums do (and easier access to highways than most downtown stadiums would).

I 100% agree that the 6ers ownership is looking to maximize return and I think a lot of that will come down to playing the city/state against our neighbors to the east. In recent years, NJ has been a lot more willing to finance companies and attractions coming to Camden than we have been to PA (and I'm not arguing that we should be using public money to finance this stuff at all). That really is the biggest factor in profitability. If you have entertainment product that's somewhat inelastic, shifting the location slightly will not be as big of a factor as the public financing. I think NJ is willing to open their pockets to the 6ers far more than PA is and that could be the deciding factor.

I'm not saying Camden is a slam dunk. I'm not saying it's my preference (far from it). I'm just saying it's a serious contender.

Stadiums revitalizing neighborhoods is a myth and I'd have serious space and traffic concerns about a Center City location (you can say take the subway as much as you want, but only some people will actually do it - I'd be one of them). Personally, I think something like the Verizon Center in Center City would be disappointing. That building has no gameday atmosphere. Something by Penn's Landing would be interesting, but public transit would be an issue. I'd prefer both to Camden, but I still wouldn't rule them out.

My dream would be that they build a BIGGER complex in the stadium complex. My WILDEST DREAM would be to put it right at the entrance to the Navy Yard (overlooking FDR Park) in the renovated belly of the SS United States, which would not only develop the most unique stadium in the country, but also spur the Navy Yard extension to the Broad Street line. The chances of that happening are exactly 0%. The chances of Camden taking it are substantially higher.

I wasn't trying up imply that an arena in Camden would be so much worse than one in the stadium district. I was saying they're basically the same, an arena in an area you're otherwise not looking to hang out in, where you drive or take transit to the game/event and then leave. But after considering that reality, again it's hard to imagine a location in Camden better suited for that than the sports complex is. Sports complex sits at the intersection of two major highways and the wells Fargo center is a block from a subway stop. I understand there's highways and patco in Camden, but it won't be as easy to get to for most in the metro as the sports complex is. It's not that they couldn't book events in Camden, I'm just saying it would be tough competition.

Even if you feel theres no difference between the two sites, they're not looking for an arena that is on basically even footing with wells Fargo center. They're looking for an arena that is unlike anything else in the metro. They want to beat the wells Fargo center.

You're right that Camden would be easier to drive to generally than a center city arena, but then you're comparing apples to oranges. When the location is irrelevant, all that matters is the commute. They're not looking for an irrelevant location.

In any event, I wasn't blindly speculating. I do have some inside information and I know that Camden is not among the handful of sites they're currently seriously considering.

Believe that or not, and it's not like my source is Josh Harris so who really knows. But I did post here that they were definitely in talks to propose a center city arena before their failed Penns landing bid, back when most were poopooing the idea of them even leaving the sports complex. They want their own arena and they want it to be in center city.

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by allovertown

I wasn't trying up imply that an arena in Camden would be so much worse than one in the stadium district. I was saying they're basically the same, an arena in an area you're otherwise not looking to hang out in, where you drive or take transit to the game/event and then leave. But after considering that reality, again it's hard to imagine a location in Camden better suited for that than the sports complex is. Sports complex sits at the intersection of two major highways and the wells Fargo center is a block from a subway stop. I understand there's highways and patco in Camden, but it won't be as easy to get to for most in the metro as the sports complex is. It's not that they couldn't book events in Camden, I'm just saying it would be tough competition.

Even if you feel theres no difference between the two sites, they're not looking for an arena that is on basically even footing with wells Fargo center. They're looking for an arena that is unlike anything else in the metro. They want to beat the wells Fargo center.

You're right that Camden would be easier to drive to generally than a center city arena, but then you're comparing apples to oranges. When the location is irrelevant, all that matters is the commute. They're not looking for an irrelevant location.

In any event, I wasn't blindly speculating. I do have some inside information and I know that Camden is not among the handful of sites they're currently seriously considering.

Believe that or not, and it's not like my source is Josh Harris so who really knows. But I did post here that they were definitely in talks to propose a center city arena before their failed Penns landing bid, back when most were poopooing the idea of them even leaving the sports complex. They want their own arena and they want it to be in center city.

Glad to hear there's some insider info about a Center City preference. That is something. I'd still prefer they stay in the Stadium complex, but if they can find a way to make Center City work, that would be better than Camden. Maybe I'm just too jaded about everything else this ownership group has done with the team. Curious what they think they can do (outside of being in Center City) to really distinguish from Wells Fargo.

[SEFTA]

Arenas are NOT good neighbors.
I lived on 34th Street when I first moved to NY.
1 block from MSG.
Always a swarm of people after every game/match/concert...
What kind of swarm depends on the what show just let out.
It varies a lot
and can be overwhelming
and often was

[Nova08]

Originally Posted by summersm343

Perfectly fine to see GSK downsizing... at least they're staying in the city! The space in the Navy Yard will be backfilled quickly. It's a nice building and there's a lot of life science demand down there now too.

Get used to seeing more companies downsize office space in the age of COVID. This also isn't only happening in Philly by the way... it's happening everywhere. This is one time when we should be happy that Philly has such a mixed-use residential Downtown.

Time will tell. It's just over 200k sq ft so a pretty sizeable space. Outside of Spark it seems like the other growing biotech's have space that do not eclipse the 100k range. Would be great to attract an out-of-town company rather than just shuffling the deck chairs.

I agree it is good for RiteAid but that sounds like a 5+ year plan given their remote first direction.

[DudeGuy]

Just weighing in on the arena talk - knock down the Roundhouse and build the new basketball arena there. It's close to PATCO, MFL, Broad Street Line, Regional Rail, AND the highway (there are even huge parking garages nearby to boot). As others have commented, an arena next to the "Fashion District" and East Market would do wonders for the area.