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  #5381  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2014, 1:29 AM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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Someone mentioned this article earlier, but I find it so interesting. It raises so many points about Phoenix, and whether it would be welcomed then survive or fail would be an indicator as to what "downtown" is and where Phoenix stands as a top U.S. City.

http://www.marketplace.org/topics/we...un-suburbanize

1) Would ANY ethnic community welcome a developer into their neighborhood after seeing the complete destruction that has happened to places like Little China, The Deuce, etc.?
2) Can Phoenix truly have a bridge between the corporate towers of downtown and the barrios? Or, are relations too strained due to the state's political climate?
3) Could there every truly be a thriving Latino community visited by those "north of the tracks" or have we demolished too much of that gateway already to ever connect the two?
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  #5382  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2014, 4:20 AM
exit2lef exit2lef is offline
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Originally Posted by HooverDam View Post
I was at the presentation, the reaction was mixed. I should note, there will be similar cloud like structures as entries at least two points....one near the Jewish Center/Burton Barr area and another somewhere on the West side of the park. I think the details are all up in the air, but the idea is they'll look similar to kind of pick up on the theme.

Sadly, a lot of the reaction was "there's not enough parking!" Even the main designer from !Melk was flabbergasted, making a quick snide "you people here really love your cars." The current design has wayyy too much parking, especially of the surface variety.

When they mentioned trying to get a restaurant (perhaps Japanese) on that dirt lot on the NE corner of 3rd Ave/Portland many people from that neighborhood got vocally upset and flipped out. Sadly, even though the live in freaking downtown they want the quiet of suburbia.

I think we really need to educate people on, if you're living in the city- city type stuff is going to happen! Noisy, cool restaurants might be nearby. People might parallel park their cars on your street. You may occasionally see a homeless person.



Yep, this is good news.
I didn't hear any whining about parking during the presentation and the Q&A afterward, but maybe they got some of that during the workshops that led up to the design. If so, that's disappointing, but the designers don't have to pander to it. A no-added-parking design would be an even bolder statement than clouds or buttes. Otherwise, we just let stereotypes about loving cars become self-fulfilling prophecy.

Last edited by exit2lef; Jan 31, 2014 at 10:50 AM.
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  #5383  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2014, 9:43 AM
poconoboy61 poconoboy61 is offline
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A little bit of a deviation from the thread, but I stumbled on the Facebook group Vintage Phoenix. It has tons of older pictures of Phoenix, including downtown, for anyone who's into that sort of thing.

This picture is pretty awesome. It's hard to believe that this is still the tallest in the state after all these years, but I have to say that it is my favorite high rise in the here. YOu see a little sliver of the Hotel Monroe in the foreground. Hopefully we'll see more development like this within the next decade.



Credit: Jeremy Butler
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  #5384  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2014, 4:34 PM
KevininPhx KevininPhx is offline
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Originally Posted by Jjs5056 View Post
Sean, are you sure about the waiting list component? That's the first I've heard, and is unfortunate if true. They do need to sign a waiver that they are okay living in an urban, noisy environment, but yes, ideally, the residents should be those WANTING the experience outright.

As for your second point, I absolutely agree. I have been saying the same all year long and gotten shit for being too negative. But, I can't think of a single market rate apartment complex built in either downtown Tempe or downtown Phoenix since the crash aside from CityScape. Tempe is at least getting HF lofts and USA Place, but for Phoenix, prime property is being swallowed by those with low discretionary income and, while diversity is great, it doesn't help change the image most have of downtown Phoenix when most of the residents are in this demo.
Um, OK, I can be wrong. But aren't you the same person who was / is bitching about the 275 market-rate apartments proposed for Buchanan?
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  #5385  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2014, 5:01 PM
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Originally Posted by poconoboy61 View Post
A little bit of a deviation from the thread, but I stumbled on the Facebook group Vintage Phoenix. It has tons of older pictures of Phoenix, including downtown, for anyone who's into that sort of thing.

This picture is pretty awesome. It's hard to believe that this is still the tallest in the state after all these years, but I have to say that it is my favorite high rise in the here. YOu see a little sliver of the Hotel Monroe in the foreground. Hopefully we'll see more development like this within the next decade.



Credit: Jeremy Butler
This is an awesome picture!
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  #5386  
Old Posted Jan 31, 2014, 9:17 PM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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Originally Posted by KevininPhx View Post
Um, OK, I can be wrong. But aren't you the same person who was / is bitching about the 275 market-rate apartments proposed for Buchanan?
Not because thy are market rate, but because they are abandoning Buchanan, creating a superblock, and cutting off public access to 1 of the 2 buildings they are saving (whole destroying 7). I want market rate apartments between VB and Roosevelt west of Central, or on the hundreds of dirt lots throuout downtown, or in and attached to the warehouses.

Have you tried walking past Roosevelt Point on 3rd? Pretty lame from the pedestrian level. Ballpark has an even bigger footprint.

I dint think I suck for wanting scalable streets.
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  #5387  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2014, 3:04 AM
Edifice Edifice is offline
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Great Picture!

Quote:
Originally Posted by poconoboy61 View Post
A little bit of a deviation from the thread, but I stumbled on the Facebook group Vintage Phoenix. It has tons of older pictures of Phoenix, including downtown, for anyone who's into that sort of thing.

This picture is pretty awesome. It's hard to believe that this is still the tallest in the state after all these years, but I have to say that it is my favorite high rise in the here. YOu see a little sliver of the Hotel Monroe in the foreground. Hopefully we'll see more development like this within the next decade.



Credit: Jeremy Butler
Such a great picture of the Valley Center, as it was called when it was built! Thanks for posting! My dad took me to the grand opening in 1972 and it was the genesis of my passion for high rise architecture! I never missed an opportunity to look for it on the horizon from anywhere in Phoenix.

Have to agree that it is still my favorite building in Phoenix. I was 13 when it opened and I visited many times after I got my drivers license in '74. I used to make almost daily trips in my step mom's Ford Maverick back then. It was a great time for downtown Phoenix as several projects were underway: Hyatt Regency, Adams Hotel, and Arizona Bank building. These buildings were and are the backbone of today's downtown skyline. What a thrill to watch them going up! I remember parking across the street from the Adams and watching the construction crew hoist the arched window panels, one by one, to a waiting worker who would maneuver them in place. Great memories!
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  #5388  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2014, 3:31 AM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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Every time I pass Chase during lunch, I think of what a miss it was to create that moat around it. There is always so much traffic - at least for Phoenix. Even if it were simply raised to the same grade level, the plaza woildve be a great place for small food carts, downtown information kiosks and quick-service retail could be added on the ground level like a donut/coffee window, small deli, and dry cleaners.

I understand the rationale given the time it was built, but can't understand why it hasnt been fixed.
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  #5389  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2014, 7:21 AM
michael85225 michael85225 is offline
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Neat model of the then upcoming Valley Center in the late 60's. Anyone know if it still exists somewhere in Chase Tower or a museum?



Source: http://www.bradhallart.com/phoenix.htm


While we're on the subject, here's a cool gingerbread model I stumbled upon. It was created by someone named Elizabeth Armijo for a charity auction and it got the highest bid.


Source: http://ultimategingerbread-photocont...o-contest.html

Last edited by michael85225; Feb 1, 2014 at 7:48 AM.
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  #5390  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2014, 1:35 PM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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Portland Lofts (Portland Place II) is set to break ground by end of year; they're to open a sales office at 3rd and Portland.

http://phoenix.gov/webcms/groups/int...ent_formal.pdf
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  #5391  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2014, 3:12 PM
PHXFlyer11 PHXFlyer11 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jjs5056 View Post
Portland Lofts (Portland Place II) is set to break ground by end of year; they're to open a sales office at 3rd and Portland.

http://phoenix.gov/webcms/groups/int...ent_formal.pdf
Nice! Did we ever confirm the latest renderings? Final height?
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  #5392  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2014, 5:42 PM
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Hance Park

Here is a more detailed PDF about the master plan for Hance Park. I have read some of the criticism about the park, mostly from J, but have to disagree, this design is actually a huge upgrade from what we have. There are more entrance markers than you guys give it credit for, and the cloud could indeed become a type of landmark above central.

http://phoenix.gov/webcms/groups/int...ent/108663.pdf
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  #5393  
Old Posted Feb 1, 2014, 10:33 PM
poconoboy61 poconoboy61 is offline
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Honestly, no matter how Hance Park is redesigned, until the homeless and transients who are constantly loitering there are removed, it will not be a point of interest for most people. I know it sounds elitist, but most people are not going to feel safe walking around a place where a bunch of people are sprawled out all over, drinking, dealing drugs, sleeping while surrounded by their own litter, and just randomly yelling to no one in particular. I would love to get excited about upgrades to Hance, but between the transients and the large issue with tagging and vandalism in the area, it's hard to believe the any improvements that are done are going to have any bit of difference.
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  #5394  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2014, 5:17 AM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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Originally Posted by Arquitect View Post
Here is a more detailed PDF about the master plan for Hance Park. I have read some of the criticism about the park, mostly from J, but have to disagree, this design is actually a huge upgrade from what we have. There are more entrance markers than you guys give it credit for, and the cloud could indeed become a type of landmark above central.

http://phoenix.gov/webcms/groups/int...ent/108663.pdf
Sorry, but I think it's going to another case of "looks great on paper," but doesn't work in the real world. Pocono is absolutely right, and the most important upgrade needed for this park was visibility. They've done little to enhance the views from Central, so now we need to rely on the park being used for pedestrian surveillance, and I'm not convinced that this park is giving enough reason for it to be used.

I would need to talk to someone who knew the exact details of the plan before making a final assessment. I can't tell what some of the buildings stand for, which are new, what would definitely be feasible, what's a longterm wish, etc. But, it's my assumption that the plan is relying heavily on development - 2 garages, retail buildings, restaurants, firehouse conversion - without which, there is hardly any programming or activity. The skate park is a good addition, but extremely limiting; why no basketball or volleyball courts? And, the east side is essentially abandoned if there isn't an event going on in the pavilion.

If the development pieces are going to be easily approved and financed, I could change my mind, even though i would still question the location of some of them.

The cloud sounds great, but I'll miss seeing midtown/downtown while approaching either, and given how underused Civic Space is with its unique art piece, I doubt this do anything to increase usage.

Last edited by Jjs5056; Feb 2, 2014 at 5:49 AM.
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  #5395  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2014, 6:03 AM
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Prestige Worldwide Prestige Worldwide is offline
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Originally Posted by poconoboy61 View Post
Honestly, no matter how Hance Park is redesigned, until the homeless and transients who are constantly loitering there are removed, it will not be a point of interest for most people. I know it sounds elitist, but most people are not going to feel safe walking around a place where a bunch of people are sprawled out all over, drinking, dealing drugs, sleeping while surrounded by their own litter, and just randomly yelling to no one in particular. I would love to get excited about upgrades to Hance, but between the transients and the large issue with tagging and vandalism in the area, it's hard to believe the any improvements that are done are going to have any bit of difference.
pocono, I think you hit the primary issue with Hance Park's future. The Burton Barr Library, adjacent to the park, is also a big draw for the homeless as well. The park will never take off because of this nexus, no matter what the re-design yields. I think Central Phoenix folks can handle some homeless, it goes with the territory (and I live in a neighborhood where they pass through and have squatted in abandoned homes), but the congregation of homeless at the park and library is well beyond what most people will tolerate (this is also why 'The Pin' will not be constructed at Hance). I don't think there is any will to address this issue in the open, so I expect the status quo to continue for quite some time. You can't win them all, Downtown and Central Phoenix will have other bright spots.
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  #5396  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2014, 6:13 AM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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pocono, I think you hit the primary issue with Hance Park's future. The Burton Barr Library, adjacent to the park, is also a big draw for the homeless as well. The park will never take off because of this nexus, no matter what the re-design yields. I think Central Phoenix folks can handle some homeless, it goes with the territory (and I live in a neighborhood where they pass through and have squatted in abandoned homes), but the congregation of homeless at the park and library is well beyond what most people will tolerate (this is also why 'The Pin' will not be constructed at Hance). I don't think there is any will to address this issue in the open, so I expect the status quo to continue for quite some time. You can't win them all, Downtown and Central Phoenix will have other bright spots.
The reason they congregate in these areas is because they are abandoned and secluded. That's why the #1 goal of this revitalization should've been visibility. With visibility comes more natural surveillance and feeling of safety, along with more people entering once they knowmit exists, adding additional eyes to keep a watch out.

As that cycle continues, the homeless either find a new place or become so over numbered that they're no longer perceived as a threat, but simply a nuisance - see Mill Ave.
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  #5397  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2014, 6:30 AM
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The reason they congregate in these areas is because they are abandoned and secluded. That's why the #1 goal of this revitalization should've been visibility. With visibility comes more natural surveillance and feeling of safety, along with more people entering once they knowmit exists, adding additional eyes to keep a watch out.

As that cycle continues, the homeless either find a new place or become so over numbered that they're no longer perceived as a threat, but simply a nuisance - see Mill Ave.
I somewhat agree. Visibility can help. In the long run, it would be great if we could bring Central Ave. down to ground level instead of skying over the park, creating a seedy underbelly, but that would require 'real' money. sigh.

Better visibility still doesn't address the library, directly adjacent to the park, which is a big magnet, and nothing can really be done about it. The library cannot and really should not turn people away because they are homeless. Things are crappy enough for the homeless, the library is a good indoor and free resource for these folks and they are always going to be next to a public park, where it is also difficult to exclude them from. Homeless feeling like they are intentionally driven (or encouraged to be diverted) from the area would become a powder keg for certain city policymakers who are trying to show compassion for the homeless. This is another one of Downtown's gordian knots.
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  #5398  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2014, 7:04 AM
Jjs5056 Jjs5056 is offline
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I somewhat agree. Visibility can help. In the long run, it would be great if we could bring Central Ave. down to ground level instead of skying over the park, creating a seedy underbelly, but that would require 'real' money. sigh.

Better visibility still doesn't address the library, directly adjacent to the park, which is a big magnet, and nothing can really be done about it. The library cannot and really should not turn people away because they are homeless. Things are crappy enough for the homeless, the library is a good indoor and free resource for these folks and they are always going to be next to a public park, where it is also difficult to exclude them from. Homeless feeling like they are intentionally driven (or encouraged to be diverted) from the area would become a powder keg for certain city policymakers who are trying to show compassion for the homeless. This is another one of Downtown's gordian knots.
My point was that placing cafes, food trucks, and/or sporting courts near areas that aren't visible directly would increase usage, number of pedestrians and perception of safety.
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  #5399  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2014, 7:24 AM
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My point was that placing cafes, food trucks, and/or sporting courts near areas that aren't visible directly would increase usage, number of pedestrians and perception of safety.
I hear your point, and mine is that the public library and the nature of an adjacent public park that attract homeless are difficult to overcome for what residents would like for the park to become. Doesn't make my point less relevant nor yours.
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  #5400  
Old Posted Feb 2, 2014, 5:50 PM
rocksteady rocksteady is offline
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Originally Posted by Prestige Worldwide View Post
I somewhat agree. Visibility can help. In the long run, it would be great if we could bring Central Ave. down to ground level instead of skying over the park, creating a seedy underbelly, but that would require 'real' money. sigh.

Better visibility still doesn't address the library, directly adjacent to the park, which is a big magnet, and nothing can really be done about it. The library cannot and really should not turn people away because they are homeless. Things are crappy enough for the homeless, the library is a good indoor and free resource for these folks and they are always going to be next to a public park, where it is also difficult to exclude them from. Homeless feeling like they are intentionally driven (or encouraged to be diverted) from the area would become a powder keg for certain city policymakers who are trying to show compassion for the homeless. This is another one of Downtown's gordian knots.
I don't know much about the laws in this city regarding the homeless and where they can and cannot congregate, like NYC has, but is it out of the question to create policy here? Central Park isn't crawling with homeless people and if this is going to be Phoenix's Central Park then can't the city do a better job with enforcement? You would think with all the money they are putting in to it there has to be someone talking about how to deal with this. Maybe the months of construction and activity down there will force them to find a new area. If it isn't addressed, it ends up becoming uncontrollable, like it is in the Tenderloin in San Fran.
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