Atlantic Station Thread II

[dirtybird]

Originally Posted by gt9228a

Ten Pin Alley says Now Open on the AS website. Is that true? Anyone been there yet?

I went there this past Saturday. It's definitely a nice addition to the city. They're still in the process of building a kitchen and it won't be ready for another 3-4 weeks before they can serve food.

[Sedaded]

Originally Posted by SteveD

Alas...sad but true. One of the worst examples of category killers around, and burned, stale, overpriced coffee. Dunkin' Donuts has better coffee.

I don't get my this is such a pervasive opinion. Sometimes I think that once a company reaches a certain size or market share, it automatically becomes viewed as evil and of poor quality. The fact is that Starbucks could never have grown as fast and as large as it did without having a good product. The American people are not stupid (at least when it comes to consumer products; politics is another story). If Starbucks was chock full of "burnt, overpriced" coffee, not as many people would patronize the establishments.

Even the argument that they were first movers in an untapped market doesn't hold much weight on this front. To that point, competitors such as Dunkin Donuts, Caribou, and PJs have barely even made a blip on the radar in terms of market share. A firm with a substandard product would have been culled from the industry by now. Also, while I do understand the reasoning behind the complaint that "it kills local businesses" or it is a "category killer," I still don't buy it. Again, if those local stores or other coffee shops had the superior product, people would go there instead of Starbucks.

Yes, giant corporate entities can lose touch with their customer base and become faceless players in the industry, but that doesn't make them evil or worthy of everyone's scorn. Starbucks, as a corporation, does a lot in terms of social responsibility, which is nice to see in this day in age. Finally, I am not a Starbucks (specifically) apologist, but I just think that some opinions about large companies are based on specious reasoning instead of personal experience.

[SteveD]

Originally Posted by Sedaded

I don't get my this is such a pervasive opinion. Sometimes I think that once a company reaches a certain size or market share, it automatically becomes viewed as evil and of poor quality. The fact is that Starbucks could never have grown as fast and as large as it did without having a good product. The American people are not stupid (at least when it comes to consumer products; politics is another story). If Starbucks was chock full of "burnt, overpriced" coffee, not as many people would patronize the establishments.

Even the argument that they were first movers in an untapped market doesn't hold much weight on this front. To that point, competitors such as Dunkin Donuts, Caribou, and PJs have barely even made a blip on the radar in terms of market share. A firm with a substandard product would have been culled from the industry by now. Also, while I do understand the reasoning behind the complaint that "it kills local businesses" or it is a "category killer," I still don't buy it. Again, if those local stores or other coffee shops had the superior product, people would go there instead of Starbucks.

Yes, giant corporate entities can lose touch with their customer base and become faceless players in the industry, but that doesn't make them evil or worthy of everyone's scorn. Starbucks, as a corporation, does a lot in terms of social responsibility, which is nice to see in this day in age. Finally, I am not a Starbucks (specifically) apologist, but I just think that some opinions about large companies are based on specious reasoning instead of personal experience.

Well, that's certainly an incorrect assumption with respect to me. I was a co-owner and operator of a small gourmet coffee ROASTING shop. I don't say that Starbucks coffee is (mostly) burned and (mostly) stale out of ignorance or specious reasoning. The competitors I'm talking about are not the other large chains you mentioned, but the mom and pop shops, many of which actually roasted coffee on-site, in small batches, thus ensuring a VASTLY superior product, and which are finding it difficult to remain in business across the country. Yes, the American public is largely ignorant about what constitutes "good" coffee. Most folks patronizing Starbucks aren't really going there for the coffee. I don't make blanket statements about big equals bad or evil. I say most Starbucks coffee is burned, stale, and overpriced, because it is. Starbucks has had an immensely adverse affect on the mom and pop gourmet coffee roasters of the country because they introduced a different experience and atmosphere which appealed to people and was about much more than simply coffee. Any on-site small batch roaster will produce a superior product to any large chain which obtains coffee from a central location roasted some time ago. At least Dunkin' Donuts usually stops roasting their coffee before the outer casing begins to burn. Off my soap box now....let's get back to Atlantic Station talk!

[catlike]

Originally Posted by Sedaded

If Starbucks was chock full of "burnt, overpriced" coffee, not as many people would patronize the establishments.

Except that people aren't drinking the "burnt, overpriced coffee." They're drinking the "burnt, overpriced coffee diluted with cream, filled with sugar, topped with gobs of whipped cream and dessert syrup." The coffee part is incidental by this point. When is the last time you saw hordes of customers sipping black coffee at Starbucks?

[SteveD]

Originally Posted by catlike

Except that people aren't drinking the "burnt, overpriced coffee." They're drinking the "burnt, overpriced coffee diluted with cream, filled with sugar, topped with gobs of whipped cream and dessert syrup." The coffee part is incidental by this point. When is the last time you saw hordes of customers sipping black coffee at Starbucks?

That's dead-on, Catlike. That's absolutely correct.

[Curious Atlantan]

Originally Posted by catlike

Except that people aren't drinking the "burnt, overpriced coffee." They're drinking the "burnt, overpriced coffee diluted with cream, filled with sugar, topped with gobs of whipped cream and dessert syrup." The coffee part is incidental by this point. When is the last time you saw hordes of customers sipping black coffee at Starbucks?

I am one of those that sip Starbucks black coffee: I always have double espressos from Starbucks and I think they are great. I don't like big chain stores either but I think Starbucks is one of the few ones that are focused on quality. Their coffee may not be the greatest bar none but it is most certainly pretty good, certainly not burned or stalled. I wished more people would actually enjoy the coffee and not the 2000 calories lattes, but what can you do...

[ATLmangum]

Its coffee people. How long must we talk about this???

[RobMidtowner]

I know, this argument has been brewing for a while now

[MarketsWork]

Originally Posted by ATLmangum

Its coffee people. How long must we talk about this???

Until there's a new major announcement. Or Joe Steed posts more of his stunning photos. Or Randy Sandford comes to town and does the same. Or Andrea gets arrested for vandalizing the Downtown Connector with a jackhammer. Until then, we're just nitpicking!

[SteveD]

Originally Posted by RobMidtowner

I know, this argument has been brewing for a while now

it does seem to keep percolating to the surface...

[(four 0 four)]

Some of these comments should be considered grounds for dismissal!

[thoraudio]

this isn't punny at all.

[STrek777]

Originally Posted by thoraudio

this isn't punny at all.

I’m a Caribou Coffee person myself.

[Dragonheart8588]

I never liked Starbucks because of the taste. Their fraps taste bitter even though it is suppose to be sweet. There was a coffee shop called Jatema in Gwinnett but it went out of business. They made some of the best fraps and the whip creams are made fresh everyday unlike Starbucks that come out of can. The only time I drink Starbucks is when it is free. I sometimes drink Caribou coffee at work. They are okay but I heard that they rip the idea from Starbucks.

[Behind_Phips]

Knock Starbucks all you want, but they are good for the community. Not only do they provide Grade A quality products, but they are good for the communities they serve. Just like the local pub is the local meeting place to a neighborhood in England, the same is true to our Starbucks. I can not tell you how many times I walk into a Starbucks and see kids in there teens setting around actually talking or doing homework. Personally, I have business meetings at Starbucks. This is the community center of our generation. More importantly, they are one of a few large established retail companies that give healthcare insurance to anyone who works over 20 hours. Very unique in our profit driven economy. So buy that $3.00 Grande coffee with a smile on your face because you are doing more than just putting profits in another company!!!

[jobe]

I didn't mean to brew up any controversy. I was merely letting everyone know that Starbucks was open in Atlantic Station.

[Behind_Phips]

Jobe, I appreciate you brewing up a discussion. People need to know fact from fiction. I agree that in most cases it is better to buy local because it serves the community better. However with Starbucks, that is not the case. This forum is not just about buildings, hopefully it helps to better the community and citizens!!!

[SteveD]

Originally Posted by Behind_Phips

Jobe, I appreciate you brewing up a discussion. People need to know fact from fiction. I agree that in most cases it is better to buy local because it serves the community better. However with Starbucks, that is not the case. This forum is not just about buildings, hopefully it helps to better the community and citizens!!!

You sort of were bolstering my point though, in that Starbucks is really about other things than the coffee. My posts were about the coffee, which is, in my opinion, decidely not a "Grade A product", and how the chain has adversely affected mom and pop coffee roasting businesses across the U.S., who were in fact serving up a superior coffee product, but got steamrolled by the Starbucks onslaught.

[Tombstoner]

I see your point, but I wonder how many "mom-and-pop" places came into being because Starbucks created a market where none (or a very small one) existed (that's not a rhetorical question--I really don't know). Thinking back to the year 1 BS (before Starbucks), I honestly don't recall seeing any mom-and-pop coffee roasters/shops in the medium-sized cities and towns in which I lived. I'm sure large cities had a handful, but I suspect that the coffeeshop got reintroduced to Mainstreet, USA largely as a result of Starbucks.

PS. I want to go on record as being philosophically opposed to Behind Phips' suggestion that fact can be separated from fiction.

[SteveD]

Originally Posted by Tombstoner

I see your point, but I wonder how many "mom-and-pop" places came into being because Starbucks created a market where none (or a very small one) existed (that's not a rhetorical question--I really don't know). Thinking back to the year 1 BS (before Starbucks), I honestly don't recall seeing any mom-and-pop coffee roasters/shops in the medium-sized cities and towns in which I lived. I'm sure large cities had a handful, but I suspect that the coffeeshop got reintroduced to Mainstreet, USA largely as a result of Starbucks.

PS. I want to go on record as being philosophically opposed to Behind Phips' suggestion that fact can be separated from fiction.

that's a good and interesting point, Tombstoner. I think that a lot of the "new" mom and pop independents are trying to copy the Starbucks mold and are also serving up coffee roasted in enormous batches elsewhere by who knows who, and who knows how long ago. It's the original small batch independent roasters, who preceeded the Starbucks craze, that took the hit.