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  #3001  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2015, 4:16 PM
1487 1487 is offline
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Originally Posted by allovertown View Post
This 1000%. I'm black and I'm not afraid of the Gallery in its present form and often shop there because it's convenient. .. that doesn't mean I don't think it looks dumpy and embarrassing for the tourists and wouldn't appreciate it looking nicer. I also shop at rtm and my wife shops on walnut st. 1487 shouldn't stereotype all black as preferring the dumpy gallery. All the black people I know think it's a great idea. Sorry 1487, I think you're waging a fight on the behalf of people who mostly disagree with you.
I rarely went into the gallery. I will rarely go into the new gallery. I am not in favor of blacks shopping in inadequate facilities. NEver claimed otherwise. Id recommend actually reading what I said vs someone's version of my own words. I Said several posts back that the gallery suffered due to lack of innovation and modernization. Something built in the late 70s or early 80s shouldve been gradually updated. It wasnt and that blame lies with the entities (including the RDA) who owned the mall. I said the condition of the place is to blamed on those groups, not the patrons. CroMagnum and a host of other people have adopted the notion that the main problem with the gallery was that too many undesirable people were shopping there and the PREIT plan is our best shot at scattering these people so that they dont crowd the sightlines of certain CC demograhics. I say the gallery needs changes for the sake of the patrons and CC as a whole, Im dont buy into the idea that it was a failure because too many blacks shopped there- which is the position of many folks. As i said in my previous post, it was one of PREITs best performers on a sales per sf basis which is why activist investors didn't want PREIT to unload it like it did some suburban malls. Once the gallery is redone it should offer a superior design but Im agnostic on the stores inside. SOme people feel strongly that is shouldnt offer stores that might appeal to any of the current customers- even if those people have money to spend and are looking for somewhere to spend it. As CroM said- the gallery should like Walnut near Rittenhouse Square if its to be considered successful or appealing.
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  #3002  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2015, 4:21 PM
br323206 br323206 is offline
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Originally Posted by 1487 View Post
im not even clear what you mean by social justice. It has nothing to do with what Im talking about. Im talking about the notion that you believe someone with your particular tastes should be able to dictate what and whom should be found in center city. And anyone or anything that isn't your cup of tea is downgrading Center city philly. As stated numerous times- there were many common chain stores in the gallery that would be found in the average suburban mall. In fact, recent reports suggested the gallery made more money than several of PREITs suburban malls on a per sf basis. Thats a fact. The gallery was a dated design that needed updating but your statements about it being a run down shit hole full of low class stores selling junk goods classy people wouldnt buy dont line up with the facts. Nor do your claims of people being scared to go into the mall because they may have to share any space with angry mobs of teens who were roaming the property day and night. So forget social justice, Im saying that center city can be and likely will always be a place that offers products and food that cater to a wide range of tastes even (Shockingly) tastes that you don't share. When you infer that sneaker stores are low rent slum type retailers that have no place in your Utopian K of P like center city it tells me what I need to know about your perspective. IF a store is doing the business to pay the rent than the landlord is going to keep that store there. There is a nice new sneaker store on chestnut that filled a vacant space, if they can support that space and it drives foot traffic Im glad they are there. Some people need to buy sneakers even if you find such things beneath you and your social circle. Im still baffled by the fact that you feel that stores that would be gladly accepted in many suburban malls are in fact too low class for downtown Philly. HOw does that work?
It seems like you're creating a straw man of his argument. I'm not going to go back and read through every post again but I don't think he would agree with your characterization of his opinion on the matter.

The Gallery made money. Did it live up to its potential? No. Do we hope that it will? Yes. Is RTM a diverse space that is also affordable and friendly to tourists and residents alike? Yes. Could we use more spaces like it? Yes.

I think that sums up Cro's arguments, or at least how I perceived them.
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  #3003  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2015, 4:37 PM
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Cro Burnham Cro Burnham is offline
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Originally Posted by 1487 View Post
CroMagnum . . . .
Listen buster, that's Cro Magnon. If you are insinuating that I am a primitive . . . well, OK, but get it right!

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Originally Posted by br323206 View Post
I think that sums up Cro's arguments, or at least how I perceived them.
If only I had the ability to be so concise.
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  #3004  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2015, 4:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Cro Burnham View Post
Listen buster, that's Cro Magnon. If you are insinuating that I am a primitive . . . well, OK, but get it right!
What's the Burnham mean (if you don't mind saying)?
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  #3005  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2015, 4:43 PM
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Cro Burnham Cro Burnham is offline
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What's the Burnham mean (if you don't mind saying)?
Nothing! Just a name. I don't know. Maybe I like Daniel Burnham.
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  #3006  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2015, 4:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Cro Burnham View Post
Nothing! Just a name. I don't know. Maybe I like Daniel Burnham.
I was thinking maybe Drexel Burnham (shows my age).

Last edited by Philly Fan; Apr 21, 2015 at 5:03 PM.
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  #3007  
Old Posted Apr 21, 2015, 10:20 PM
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Comcast, Liberty buy land for what could be third Comcast tower

http://www.philly.com/philly/busines...ast_tower.html
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  #3008  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2015, 12:53 AM
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Comcast, Liberty buy land for what could be third Comcast tower

http://www.philly.com/philly/busines...ast_tower.html
Let the speculation begin! Please, give us something taller than NY and Chicago so I can stop bragging to friends from Atlanta that I'm outranking just them!
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  #3009  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2015, 12:58 AM
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Mixed-use is the rumor. For the office component of the building, I hope the TWC goes through so that more office floors will be built assuming some function of TWC will be located here. Hoping it goes taller than CITC, but probably not if TWC does not go through.

Last edited by iheartphilly; Apr 22, 2015 at 1:03 AM. Reason: clarification
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  #3010  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2015, 1:49 AM
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I'm hoping for at least 2 towers here. This is a massive lot. A project including office space and maybe another hotel would be very satisfying. A tower in the 500-600+ foot range and another 1000 footer? That would be astonishing!

One can dream!
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  #3011  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2015, 12:18 PM
1487 1487 is offline
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Originally Posted by br323206 View Post
It seems like you're creating a straw man of his argument. I'm not going to go back and read through every post again but I don't think he would agree with your characterization of his opinion on the matter.

The Gallery made money. Did it live up to its potential? No. Do we hope that it will? Yes. Is RTM a diverse space that is also affordable and friendly to tourists and residents alike? Yes. Could we use more spaces like it? Yes.

I think that sums up Cro's arguments, or at least how I perceived them.
Not everyone shops in RTM. Not everyone shopped at the Gallery. I don't see the issues. RTM is one philadelphia attraction that caters to certain people- that is fine but the idea that ANY retail operation in center city should appeal to the exact same crowd as RTM makes absolutely no sense to me. To me RTM is sort of like Pats and Genos. Everyone knows about them and some people would even steer their out of town guests there- but they arent necessarily places that locals frequent. And shockingly, there are people in Philly that dont live in CC so while RTM may be a place where single CC dwellers do a significant amount of food shopping I assure it is not a primary destination for family grocery getting for the average Philadelphian. Thats just a fact, not a criticism of the Market which you all hold so dear.
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  #3012  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2015, 12:19 PM
1487 1487 is offline
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Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
I'm hoping for at least 2 towers here. This is a massive lot. A project including office space and maybe another hotel would be very satisfying. A tower in the 500-600+ foot range and another 1000 footer? That would be astonishing!

One can dream!
I dont think anything is happening soon based on the comments in the article. This is a long term play. Maybe something will happen within 3-5 years.
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  #3013  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2015, 2:42 PM
Insoluble Insoluble is offline
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Originally Posted by 1487 View Post
Not everyone shops in RTM. Not everyone shopped at the Gallery. I don't see the issues. RTM is one philadelphia attraction that caters to certain people- that is fine but the idea that ANY retail operation in center city should appeal to the exact same crowd as RTM makes absolutely no sense to me. To me RTM is sort of like Pats and Genos. Everyone knows about them and some people would even steer their out of town guests there- but they arent necessarily places that locals frequent. And shockingly, there are people in Philly that dont live in CC so while RTM may be a place where single CC dwellers do a significant amount of food shopping I assure it is not a primary destination for family grocery getting for the average Philadelphian. Thats just a fact, not a criticism of the Market which you all hold so dear.
Ugh can we please put this to rest?! You have some interesting ideas about the RTM that aren't grounded in reality. First of all, no one is claiming that the RTM is the go to grocery destination for the majority of the city. There are over 1.5 million people in the city, that would just be absurd. This is why br323206 stated that you're creating a straw man argument.

What people are claiming (and the facts back this up) is that the RTM serves a population that is fairly representative of the city as a whole. From the RTM's own adverts, about 33% of the patrons are from extended center city. CC is of course disproportionally represented because the RTM is located there. The remaining customers are not all tourists though, not by a long shot. People from all races and classes tend to shop there. Stand around watching the line at OK Lee' produce some time and you'll see an awful lot of folks using WIC to buy their food. People do come from all over the city and from all walks of life. Although I'm sure some areas are better represented than others, it's definitely not all tourists.

The Market is also much more affordable than you make it out to be. The prepared food stands charge a higher rate for food than your local Wendy's because their higher rent subsidizes the actual fresh food stands. That's why the Produce, meat, fish, etc stands are actually relatively affordable.

You make some good points on the whole about how Center City should not just be a playground for the wealthy, but those points will continue to get lost in the mix if you continue to fixate on defending your offhand inaccurate remarks about the RTM.
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  #3014  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2015, 2:55 PM
techchallenger techchallenger is offline
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Originally Posted by 1487 View Post
Not everyone shops in RTM. Not everyone shopped at the Gallery. I don't see the issues. RTM is one philadelphia attraction that caters to certain people- that is fine but the idea that ANY retail operation in center city should appeal to the exact same crowd as RTM makes absolutely no sense to me. To me RTM is sort of like Pats and Genos. Everyone knows about them and some people would even steer their out of town guests there- but they arent necessarily places that locals frequent. And shockingly, there are people in Philly that dont live in CC so while RTM may be a place where single CC dwellers do a significant amount of food shopping I assure it is not a primary destination for family grocery getting for the average Philadelphian. Thats just a fact, not a criticism of the Market which you all hold so dear.
RTM <> Pat's/Geno's. I'm sorry. That is just wrong. RTM actually serves palatable food. Every native Philadelphian (not just CC dwellers) I have spoken to about RTM thinks highly of it and it's offerings. My family (again not CC dwellers) has purchased their holiday turkeys from RTM for 25 years. (this was before there was a 'Whole Foods'). It's where we went to buy spices or canolis. If we were walking by we'd stop in for an ice cream cone. When I have an out of town guest that foolishly wants to eat Pat's/Geno's I take them instead to RTM and we split a Dinic's roast pork and a Salumeria's hoagie. You think everyone in RTM on a Saturday shopping for groceries is a tourist? Why are conventioneers staying at the Marriot shopping for fresh fish and broccoli?
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  #3015  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2015, 2:55 PM
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Listen buster, that's Cro Magnon. If you are insinuating that I am a primitive . . . well, OK, but get it right!
I thought it was because you were allegedly a big fan of these:



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  #3016  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2015, 2:56 PM
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Originally Posted by 1487 View Post
Not everyone shops in RTM. Not everyone shopped at the Gallery. I don't see the issues. RTM is one philadelphia attraction that caters to certain people- that is fine but the idea that ANY retail operation in center city should appeal to the exact same crowd as RTM makes absolutely no sense to me. To me RTM is sort of like Pats and Genos. Everyone knows about them and some people would even steer their out of town guests there- but they arent necessarily places that locals frequent. And shockingly, there are people in Philly that dont live in CC so while RTM may be a place where single CC dwellers do a significant amount of food shopping I assure it is not a primary destination for family grocery getting for the average Philadelphian. Thats just a fact, not a criticism of the Market which you all hold so dear.
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  #3017  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2015, 3:06 PM
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I dont think anything is happening soon based on the comments in the article. This is a long term play. Maybe something will happen within 3-5 years.
I can guarantee you that no one in the comments section on Philly.com has even the slightest bit of inside information.
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  #3018  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2015, 3:31 PM
1487 1487 is offline
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RTM <> Pat's/Geno's. I'm sorry. That is just wrong. RTM actually serves palatable food. Every native Philadelphian (not just CC dwellers) I have spoken to about RTM thinks highly of it and it's offerings. My family (again not CC dwellers) has purchased their holiday turkeys from RTM for 25 years. (this was before there was a 'Whole Foods'). It's where we went to buy spices or canolis. If we were walking by we'd stop in for an ice cream cone. When I have an out of town guest that foolishly wants to eat Pat's/Geno's I take them instead to RTM and we split a Dinic's roast pork and a Salumeria's hoagie. You think everyone in RTM on a Saturday shopping for groceries is a tourist? Why are conventioneers staying at the Marriot shopping for fresh fish and broccoli?
You (amongst others) are commenting and taking offense without even understanding my original comments. All I said was a)RTM is often packed at lunchtime and its almost impossible to find somewhere to sit b)You can get lunch for less money outside fof RTM and most people in CC do just that and c)Many people who are in and around the Market every day stay out of there at peak times.

Thats all I was saying- not sure how so many are acting like I insulted their mother. The things I said are absolutely true- it doesn't mean Im anti RTM or that Ive suggested you can get a better meal at McDonalds. If you live in CC or shop there off peak than Im sure its a much different experience. If you go in there between 12-2 on a nice day (especially if there is a convention in town) its about as crowded as the El during rush hour. There are certain offerings in there that are totally unique to CC, but other things can be found at competing places outside the market for less money and less hassle. Period.
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  #3019  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2015, 3:31 PM
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I can guarantee you that no one in the comments section on Philly.com has even the slightest bit of inside information.
Comments by comcast execs in the article, not commentors on Philly.com
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  #3020  
Old Posted Apr 22, 2015, 4:14 PM
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I assure you [RTM} is not a primary destination for family grocery getting . . . .
I have a family and I buy groceries there. The produce at Iovine's is cheaper and usually fresher than at the Shoprite on Snyder.
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