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[NYguy]

Originally Posted by MAC123

The people who actually run the station disagree with you
“Today, however, MSG’s existing configuration and property boundaries impose severe constraints on the Station that impede the safe and efficient movement of passengers and restrict efforts to implement improvements, particularly at the street and platform levels.”

NO, they don't. It was less than a year ago that the MTA said it wouldn't even pursue the new entrance on 8th Avenue because most of the traffic entered the station from 7th Avenue, (and the new Moynihan was right across 8th Ave). You think they've suddenly got a new religion? Get your head out of the sand. I use Penn Station just about every day of the week. I know what I'm talking about. Penn Station is underground. Madison Square Garden is elevated above street level. MSG is not what has allowed Penn Station to turn into the current dump that (most) of it is. It's not the reason the place feels cramped. Witness the extended ceilings they were able to create after all these years MSG has been there. And witness the plans now calling for renovations and expansion - with MSG still in place.

This is just part of the negotiating phase, and I don't expect the general public to follow this nonsense step for step. But since I do, I'm keeping it clear. The only thing standing in the way of operations at Penn is Penn itself. It wasn't built to handle the capacity it now does on a daily basis. And that is what has to be fixed. Removing an arena that sits above does nothing for that.

And that's a point they actually do get...


https://www.amny.com/new-york/manhat...-penn-station/

MSG, transit agencies at crossroads over future of Penn Station

By Ben Brachfeld
June 7, 2023

.....the railroads are not outright calling on the Garden to move. At the City Planning Commission on Wednesday, the MTA’s Construction Chief Jamie Torres-Springer said the agencies are looking for a compromise. Among other things, he proposed that the railroads could build a brand new underground facility for MSG’s considerable cargo loading needs, which is presently done at street level and leads to significant truck traffic.

In exchange, the railroads want to take over MSG’s mid-block taxi stand, which has been unused since 9/11, and turn that land into a brand new train hall with a naturally-lit atrium, plus two new entrances on Eighth Avenue on land owned by MSG.

“We’re not saying MSG must move,” said Torres-Springer. “What we’re saying is that MSG must work with us to take steps to address these constraints and meet the needs of transit users.”

Reps for MSG, on the other hand, have not been willing to engage in horse trading, arguing that the railroads’ master plan is not detailed enough for them to comment and that the drama over the special permit renewal lends itself to uncertainty over the future of Penn and the Garden.

“The plan that they have in terms of their vision is a concept piece. It is not detailed,” said Rich Constable, MSG’s head of governmental affairs and social impact. “There’s no concrete engineering, no concrete mechanical, no concrete electrical, no concrete structural, that we can look at and respond to.”

Constable noted that MSG is a publicly traded company and as such, cannot stomach the level of disruption the MTA’s Penn plans would have in store, such as potentially a whole season of Rangers games having to relocate as crews upgrade Penn’s HVAC system.

Asked whether the Rangers could follow the example of the WNBA’s Liberty and move to the Barclays Center — which no longer has a home hockey team after the Islanders moved to Nassau County — Constable noted that Barclays is no longer an NHL-approved arena, but more importantly, staging games there would rob games of their “magic” factor.

“The reason we’re not sort of waiting on should they go, should they move somewhere else, is we have 600,000 people in that station everyday, in a rabbit warren.” said Torres-Springer. “It’s unsafe, it’s undeserving of the quality and character of this city, and we want to fix it now, and we have a plan that allows us to fix it now…and we can do that with Madison Square Garden on the block.”

Dolan can't be forced to give up the land - this everyone knows. And the arena permit itself is just to allow for the large Garden crowds. (He could still operate a large, theater sized arena, which wouldn't help the Knicks and Rangers.) So, if these people don't want to see yet another set of large towers go up on site, they had better get together and figure out how to build an arena at Penn that complements Penn. Cause Dolan aint goin anywhere, and neither is Penn.

[MAC123]

^You are just objectively wrong. And it doesn't get much clearer than the MTA, NJT and Amtrak telling you directly that the 2 structures are incompatible.

[madrian]

It sounds like MSG is incompatible with Penn Station in regards to current expansion agreements. Not that an arena over a station is incompatible because that wouldn’t make sense. Both sides simply need to settle things and start the redevelopment. I don’t see why Penn Station can’t be upgraded with MSG on top as shown in the renderings.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by MAC123

^You are just objectively wrong. And it doesn't get much clearer than the MTA, NJT and Amtrak telling you directly that the 2 structures are incompatible.

You know, if you had even a little understanding of what's going on, or even bothered to read and understand what the MTA, NJT, and Amtrak are telling you DIRECTLY, in the report they JUST released, you would understand just how wrong you are. But because I'm a nice guy, and I like to provide people with information, so that you at least have the chance of understanding, I'll provide it below.

Originally Posted by madrian

It sounds like MSG is incompatible with Penn Station in regards to current expansion agreements. Not that an arena over a station is incompatible because that wouldn’t make sense. Both sides simply need to settle things and start the redevelopment. I don’t see why Penn Station can’t be upgraded with MSG on top as shown in the renderings.

That is exactly what I'm saying. And while we're at it, with all of the disruption of construction, a new arena could be built in place, not just the half measures they are proposing. The Knicks and Rangers could alternate between Barclays and the Prudential in the interim. The Dolans also control Radio City, so maybe they can squeeze in some acts there. Either way, there are going to be disruptions.

But from the report just issued by the railroads, they actually are making the case FOR the marriage between the station and the arena. Think of it as two heads, one body. They need to cooperate to get things done.






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[JSsocal]

The report above hints at the challenges and subtle changes to the plan taking place.

1. The midblock atrium is getting squeezed/smaller, both by the loading facility requirements and that 2 Penn's renovation has fully occupied their parcel, precluding any use of their site.

2. Because of this the MTA plan has now embraced the 8th avenue corners more then they were before, similar to the ASTM plan for a new pavilion on 8th avenue.

Suffice it to say, I think the ASTM plan to purchase the hulu theater and prioritize that over the midblock passage would be that much more grand and nice in the long run.

[NYguy]

^ It hasn't really changed much. Those loading docks were already going to be moved. And as is and was, there's not enough difference to convince the 70 % who are approaching from the east to trek all the way to the 8th Avenue side. The people who use that entrance regularly (I use them all btw) will continue to, even without any upgrades. That's because the people who use the station use it out of necessity, not because of it's appearance.

That being said, Penn Station should have a grander entrance. It's unfortunate that it couldn't be place on 7th Avenue, but the 2 Penn "porch" will serve somewhat as that.

My issue is that now that eveyone acknowledges the marriage between Penn and MSG, we shouldn't be settling on half measures, as far as appearance goes. As ugly as MSG is now, it's at least what it is. I think just surrounding it in glass just diminishes it even more, and doesn't do a whole lot to improve Penn from the street as far as appearance goes. It will help from inside the station.

But because we're acknowledging the two are one, I don't see why they can't come up with a unified vision or design for both the arena and Penn. It should be a distinctive landmark. Bring in someone like Gehry if you must. We know Foster is working on the unified Port Authority Bus Terminal.

[NYguy]

Rendering from a couple of years ago to now shows the plan for the midblock hasn't changed much...















We should also point out that, while some in the media are calling this a "scaled down" or "smaller" version of the project, that's just not true. What the railroads are talking about above are just the on site improvements of the current station. It has always been considered, and should have remained in conversation a separate development from the expansion projects that surround it (the Gimbel's passage connection to Herald Square, the new entrances on surrounding blocks, the expansion south, all of which are still happening). Those are the developments that Cuomo intended to use tax payments from the planned skyscrapers to help offset, not the redevelopment of the existing station. It was Governor Hochul who decided to throw everything into one basket, but as we can see, it was divided for a reason.


Anyway, as far as the existing station goes, the best thing about it all, regardless of any new fancy entrance, is what will happen inside the station. That's best summed up by these two graphics:









Those changes will make all the difference in the world, and is really what most people who have to use the station care about.

[NYguy]

Meanwhile, Vornado says it will start with a residential tower on Site 4. Even for New York, where they can build residential anywhere, it still seems an odd location to me.


DECEMBER 9, 2023

[NYguy]

Another perspective of site 4, and the theater…

[TREPYE]

The real opportunity, which seems moot now, was to demolish 2 Penn Station (AKA toilet cistern) and use that to recreate the incredible original Pennsylvania Station waiting hall, the train hall, or any of its marvelous features.

Unless 2 Penn is obliterated that whole block will still, unfortunately, look like a toilet no matter how much they toil in converting the structures around it.

[Busy Bee]

With the gobs of dough they've put into 2 Penn I'm afraid that's spilt milk under the bridge. I know, it's depressing.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by TREPYE

The real opportunity, which seems moot now, was to demolish 2 Penn Station (AKA toilet cistern) and use that to recreate the incredible original Pennsylvania Station waiting hall, the train hall, or any of its marvelous features.

Unless 2 Penn is obliterated that whole block will still, unfortunately, look like a toilet no matter how much they toil in converting the structures around it.

The funny thing is, that was a plan by Vornado, to build a huge tower on site. They couldn't get the state on board with it (financially)...

https://therealdeal.com/2018/04/09/v...r-giant-tower/

Vornado considers tearing down 2 Penn to make way for giant tower

By Kathryn Brenzel
April 09, 2018

In his annual letter to investors, Vornado Realty Trust CEO Steve Roth said the company is considering razing 2 Penn Plaza to make way for a new building that would double the current tower’s footprint.

By demolishing the 1.6-million-square-foot tower, Vornado would potentially be able to transfer some of the 5 million square feet of air rights at Madison Square Garden, which the real estate investment trust co-owns with the Dolan family. Some of the air rights could be “sprinkled to adjacent sites,” Roth noted, but the intention seems to be to create massive new development.

“The old 2 Penn has a 60,000 square foot footprint, the new [one] would have a 120,000 square foot-plus footprint at the base, perfect for our creative class tenants,” Roth said. “There would be towers above and a significant retail component below sandwiched between the train station and the office base.”

Unlocking those air rights would require the redevelopment of Penn Station.

But file that under plans that never happened...

https://therealdeal.com/2018/05/01/v...self-up-again/

In his annual letter to investors last month, Roth wrote that Vornado is considering tearing down 2 Penn Plaza and replacing it with a new tower. But during Tuesday’s call, he said that the development probably won’t happen after all because the company is having a hard time landing public subsidies to fund it.

“It does not appear that that plan is going to go forward and is feasible,” Roth said. Instead, the company will renovate the tower, give it a new facade and add 300,000 square feet near the base.

I'm sure everyone remembers this from an earlier plan to locate MSG in the Farley Building...

[NYguy]

Speaking of Vornado, much is made in the media of the wrecking ball that would be required to build the new towers. They talk of demolishing the "neighborhood". But that couldn't be further from the truth. Vornado's sites, are for the most part, placeholders awaiting development. You can see site 4 above (NY has just lost a Duane Reade. How will it ever survive with just the 1,000s more located in midtown). There really isn't much on the other Vornado owned sites to miss either.


Took a few shots a little earlier of

Site 6











Site 5


















Of course, there's the Hotel Penn...

Site 7






And finally, there is Site 8, which is the Manhattan Mall, a building that may not be demolished at all.

[mrnyc]

^ hear! hear!

those are and have been totally obvious placeholder sites for quite awhile.

good to show them.

however, i think the worries are more re the south sites, but all of it gets mixed together in the press as omg they are going to tear out all of penn midtown type rhetoric.

in other words overblown criticism.

but it wouldnt be nyc without that, would it?

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by mrnyc

^ hear! hear!

those are and have been totally obvious placeholder sites for quite awhile.

good to show them.

however, i think the worries are more re the south sites, but all of it gets mixed together in the press as omg they are going to tear out all of penn midtown type rhetoric.

in other words overblown criticism.

but it wouldnt be nyc without that, would it?

That’s part of the problem. The media needs a big developer “boogeyman” to drive the NIMBYs nuts. Controversy sells and gets ratings! The problem is, there isn’t one, so far as those other sites are concerned. But let me tell you, the Vornado sites are more of a loss. Only that church is something to talk about. But ist’s not kid ourselves.

[NYguy]

Another look at Site 6...











The ever present Garden....















Moynihan....

[NYguy]

They’ve finally realized the error their ways, and have returned to the redevelopment set up that was in place when Cuomo was in charge…


https://patch.com/new-york/midtown-n...design-process

Office Towers Nixed From Penn Plan, Gov Kicks Off Redesign Process
Hochul says the redesign will be "commuter-first," and that she won't wait for new revenue to get the process started.





By Peter Senzamici, Patch Staff
Jun 26, 2023

Farewell office towers, for now.

Governor Hochul announced today alongside Rep. Jerry Nadler and local elected officials that the plan to fix the notoriously dank tunnel system known as Penn Station will begin to proceed.

The Gov. is greasing the train wheels by ditching the controversial $13 billion Vornado office tower plan that would have helped fund the project by redeveloping a huge area surrounding the station — for now.

"We're no longer tolerating delays," Hochul said at a Monday press conference as protesters loudly shouted in the background.

The biggest change is that the Penn Station Master Plan, the name of the station redesign project, is being "decoupled" from the larger Vornado development project of 10 huge skyscrapers that would have helped subsidize the station.

Many criticized the plan, calling it a handout to the deep-pocketed developers that would have destroyed the surrounding neighborhood. Today's announcement included Hochul conceding that while the demand is not currently there to support the construction of the towers, the full redevelopment plan could proceed in the future.

What is not entirely clear is where the $7 billion to pay for the redesign will come from now that the big office towers are out of the picture for now.

Hochul said that the state is already committed to spending at least $1.3 billion and is applying for various federal funding as well. But the lack of totally secured funding, she said, can't hold up the process.

[Crawford]

Finally! Move this shit forward.

The office towers aren't coming right now, so no reason to hold things up. When Vornado builds the state can revisit zoning benefits/transit connections and all that. The first towers will likely be residential anyways. And the plan appears to keep the MSG future flexible, not locking MSG in, as with the ASTM plan.

Hopefully this will be substantially completed once Metro North expands to Penn by 2027.

And I like the renderings of the new MSG streetscape, from Eighth Ave:
https://www.governor.ny.gov/sites/de...Renderings.pdf

[BK1985]

Honestly these interior renderings are pretty nice.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Finally! Move this shit forward.

The office towers aren't coming right now, so no reason to hold things up. When Vornado builds the state can revisit zoning benefits/transit connections and all that. The first towers will likely be residential anyways. And the plan appears to keep the MSG future flexible, not locking MSG in, as with the ASTM plan.

Hopefully this will be substantially completed once Metro North expands to Penn by 2027.

And I like the renderings of the new MSG streetscape, from Eighth Ave:
https://www.governor.ny.gov/sites/de...Renderings.pdf

MSG on site is locked in for sure, but no reason it has to look like it does. But the Penn Station renovation was supposed to kick off as early as summer 2023, which is now. So we really aren’t behind. It’s just that Hochul allowed the messaging on what was happening, and what was supposed to happen bevome convoluted. The construction of those towers was to be tied into the expansion of the station itself to the south.