Combined, Washington-Baltimore now outsizes Chicago as America’s 3rd largest CSA

[craigs]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

There feels like a clear break between SF and Silicon Valley on I-280 around here:

As your cherry-picked image showed, 280 runs through a permanent greenbelt that cannot be developed. Meanwhile, the Bay Area is connected seamlessly along both the 101 and 880 corridors--you know, along the bay for which the region is named.

On what basis have you decided that, when determining connectivity, a freeway though a greenbelt along the San Andreas fault completely overrides the places where the San Francisco and San Jose MSAs clearly do connect seamlessly?

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I mean, this isn't what I was saying at all. But I'd like someone to address the point I was actually getting at.

Is someone going to tell me that this isn't the general area where the focus switches between San Francisco and Silicon Valley?

The greenbelt is where the land use focus switches from urban/suburban to completely undeveloped. Look at the map--there are only three east-west roads that bisect that entire area.

Originally Posted by mhays

Shared media market, shared teams, shared employment market that's centered in the middle, lack of a break between the two, single dominant core...lots of reasons spelled out already.

Also: shared commuter rail (ACE, Caltrain, San Joaquins, Capitol Corridor) and heavy rail (BART runs into San Jose's MSA) lines, and some shared regional government entities like Bay Area Air Quality Management District.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by craigs

On what basis have you decided that, when determining connectivity, a freeway though a greenbelt along the San Andreas fault completely overrides the places where the San Francisco and San Jose MSAs clearly do connect seamlessly?

This is annoying. Point out where I said this overrides anything.

Three pages of nonsense back and forth because I said Baltimore-Washington's case for being a singular MSA is as strong as the Bay Area's lol. You'd swear I said all the freeways in the Bay Area are lined with piles of human shit and tent cities with the way you're all reacting.

[Quixote]

The DC metro area doesn't really have expansive stretches of uniform suburban population/development patterns, not even in Fairfax or Montgomery Counties. Does the Bay Area "feel" more cohesive and seamless? Sure. But census tract (which are arbitrarily defined) density is also a byproduct of different geography and approaches to urban planning.

Washington and Baltimore are closer (about the same distance as SF's southern border to Stanford / Palo Alto). Baltimore's airport name makes it clear that it serves DC metro residents, which was the vision from the start. The Baltimore MSA's single largest employer is the federal government (Fort Meade) — halfway in between the two metros. Closer to Baltimore, you have the headquarters of the SSA and CMS (federal government). Johns Hopkins' APL was originally based in Silver Spring; now it's located just two miles from the Howard-PG border.

Sports:

The Nationals and Orioles share and broadcast on the same network, while NBC Sports Washington airs Wizards and Capitals games throughout the broader Mid-Atlantic region.

Wikipedia:

Plans for a parkway linking Baltimore and Washington date back to Pierre Charles L'Enfant's original layout for Washington, D.C. in the 18th century but did not fully develop until the 1920s.

Nobody denies that DC and Baltimore have distinct cultural identities. But it should also be very apparent that there are tangible connections between the two that predate the modern concept of MSA. Both things can be true at the same time.

[PhillyRising]

Dallas and Fort Worth are 34 miles apart and considered one metro area.

Baltimore and Washington are 40 miles apart.

It's one area. If you live in Laurel or Columbia...are you a southern suburb of Baltimore or a northern suburb or Washington?

[mhays]

It's different when there's a single dominant core, like Dallas over FTW, Seattle over Tacoma, or SF over Oakland or San Jose.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by mhays

It's different when there's a single dominant core, like Dallas over FTW, Seattle over Tacoma, or SF over Oakland or San Jose.

or even more one-sidedly, Chicago over nothing.

[austlar1]

Originally Posted by mhays

It's different when there's a single dominant core, like Dallas over FTW, Seattle over Tacoma, or SF over Oakland or San Jose.

The Seattle/Tacoma or SF/Oakland/San Jose comparison doesn't really fit the DFW area. Downtown or central Dallas is not a truly dominant core like you might find in Seattle or SF. It may be the largest center of employment overall, but there are competing centers of employment scattered all over the northern swath of the DFW metro, and commuter patterns reflect that. Most residents of the DFW metro rarely go into the core of central Dallas, just as most LA metro area residents don't often find themselves in downtown LA or nearby areas unless they are driving through on area freeways. It is the main reason why light rail and commuter rail ridership remains low even though there is a pretty good network that is focused on service through downtown and central Dallas.

[austlar1]

Originally Posted by PhillyRising

Dallas and Fort Worth are 34 miles apart and considered one metro area.

Baltimore and Washington are 40 miles apart.

It's one area. If you live in Laurel or Columbia...are you a southern suburb of Baltimore or a northern suburb or Washington?

Dallas and Fort Worth share a common media market, airport, and major league sports franchises. The Cowboys and Rangers even have stadiums located half way between Dallas and Fort Worth. Most DFW area residents, even those living inside of either Dallas or Fort Worth, have an awareness that they reside in the "Metroplex". I hate the name. It was cooked up in the early 1960s as a marketing tool, but it gets the job done and has helped forge a regional identity for the area. Baltimore and Washington are in different media markets. They have their own major league sports franchises. I agree that there is a lot of "bleed" between Baltimore and Washington, especially for residents of places like Laurel or Columbia, but I don't think commuting patterns are as diffuse for most workers and residents in the Washington/Baltimore corridor as they are for folks in the DFW area.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by austlar1

Baltimore and Washington are in different media markets. They have their own major league sports franchises.

First, San Jose also has its own major league franchise. Second, Baltimore only has franchises in 2 of the 4 major sports leagues: Ravens and the Orioles. Baltimore doesn't have its own NBA* or NHL team, so presumably people in Baltimore would follow the teams in Washington.

*The Washington Wizards were once based in Baltimore, then known as the Bullets, before moving to Washington. According to Wikipedia, the Bullets played in Baltimore several times per season for over a decade after leaving Baltimore.

[mhays]

New Jersey, Brooklyn, Anaheim, and San Jose also have franchises branded for parts of town vs. the whole. That's not a real dividing line.

As for Ft. Worth, I'm sure it's less "secondary" than some others. It's not a black and white thing. All of these places have varying aspects of "separate city" and "secondary to the core."

[austlar1]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

First, San Jose also has its own major league franchise. Second, Baltimore only has franchises in 2 of the 4 major sports leagues: Ravens and the Orioles. Baltimore doesn't have its own NBA* or NHL team, so presumably people in Baltimore would follow the teams in Washington.

*The Washington Wizards were once based in Baltimore, then known as the Bullets, before moving to Washington. According to Wikipedia, the Bullets played in Baltimore several times per season for over a decade after leaving Baltimore.

But do they schlep down to DC to go to games? Not very many, I would wager. Also, I imagine Philly basketball and hockey teams might hold some allure for Baltimore residents. I think there is a strain of resentment towards DC held by many Baltimore area residents.

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by austlar1

But do they schlep down to DC to go to games? Not very many, I would wager.

Of course they do.

Originally Posted by austlar1

Also, I imagine Philly basketball and hockey teams might hold some allure for Baltimore residents. I think there is a strain of resentment towards DC held by many Baltimore area residents.

Philadelphia is over 100 miles from Baltimore.

[austlar1]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Of course they do.



Philadelphia is over 100 miles from Baltimore.

I know where Philly is. I also know a bit about the Baltimore mind set. I lived in DC for over a decade and was in a relationship for much of that time with someone whose family hailed from a Belaire, MD., a suburb to the northeast of Baltimore. This family had absolutely no identification with Washington. I have a first cousin who has lived in Baltimore for fifty years now. I think I saw her down in DC just once during the whole 12 years I lived there. Her whole identity (she is a culture maven and patron of the Baltimore Symphony and the Baltimore Museum of Art) is tied to Baltimore cultural institutions. Speaking of which, no one has mentioned that Washington and Baltimore each have their own set of cultural institutions that are quite city-specific. Really though, I think the presence of a common local media market is the real glue that creates a regional identity. DFW has that with a long history of shared television and radio markets. That is largely absent in the Baltimore/Washington equation.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by austlar1

The Seattle/Tacoma or SF/Oakland/San Jose comparison doesn't really fit the DFW area. Downtown or central Dallas is not a truly dominant core like you might find in Seattle or SF. It may be the largest center of employment overall, but there are competing centers of employment scattered all over the northern swath of the DFW metro, and commuter patterns reflect that. Most residents of the DFW metro rarely go into the core of central Dallas, just as most LA metro area residents don't often find themselves in downtown LA or nearby areas unless they are driving through on area freeways. It is the main reason why light rail and commuter rail ridership remains low even though there is a pretty good network that is focused on service through downtown and central Dallas.

San Francisco and to a lesser extent Oakland have a traditional downtown but the workforce is pretty dispersed throughout the entire Bay Area; people in SF who commute to SV and East Bay.

[DCReid]

Originally Posted by austlar1

I know where Philly is. I also know a bit about the Baltimore mind set. I lived in DC for over a decade and was in a relationship for much of that time with someone whose family hailed from a Belaire, MD., a suburb to the northeast of Baltimore. This family had absolutely no identification with Washington. I have a first cousin who has lived in Baltimore for fifty years now. I think I saw her down in DC just once during the whole 12 years I lived there. Her whole identity (she is a culture maven and patron of the Baltimore Symphony and the Baltimore Museum of Art) is tied to Baltimore cultural institutions. Speaking of which, no one has mentioned that Washington and Baltimore each have their own set of cultural institutions that are quite city-specific. Really though, I think the presence of a common local media market is the real glue that creates a regional identity. DFW has that with a long history of shared television and radio markets. That is largely absent in the Baltimore/Washington equation.

But you do get some sharing of media markets between DC and Baltimore. For example, I lived in Prince Georges County near DC from 2006 - 2020 and was able to get football games for both the Redskins and Ravens - they would tend to show the games for both teams even when there was an option not to, such as in the case when the prime-time afternoon AFC game did not feature the Ravens, they still showed the Ravens. That being said, it is kind of telling how the metros have different identities if you look at baseball. I am not sure how many DC people followed the Orioles when DC had no team, but as soon as DC got the Nats, DC was all into the Nats from the very first day they arrived. And I did not get the vibe that DC people followed the Ravens much even when the Redskins were bad. In fact, more DC people seemed to followed the Cowboys than the Ravens - I am not sure why so many DC people followed the Cowboys when DC had the Redskins, but they did...I do think the metros may be classified as one sometime in the future however. Howard County and Ann Arndel counties are Baltimore metro but right next to the DC counties, and they are growing rapidly primarily from DC residents seeking good schools, more land, and better housing prices than Montgomery County (DC county with excellent schools and employers but high prices), and PG County (which has only mediocre schools and not many employers, but lower prices).

[austlar1]

Originally Posted by JManc

San Francisco and to a lesser extent Oakland have a traditional downtown but the workforce is pretty dispersed throughout the entire Bay Area; people in SF who commute to SV and East Bay.

Yeah, I understand that about the SF Bay area and have long felt that the region should be counted as a single metro area despite the fact that San Jose and SF have their own media. The economic cross pollination and fairly diffuse commuting patterns that have emerged in the past forty or so years make it seem logical.

I've never felt that was operative in the Washington/Baltimore corridor to the same extent. Maybe I'll feel differently, if DC residents start calling each other "Hon" on a regular basis. You still hear that all over the place around Baltimore. https://baltimorelanguage.com/welcom...e-hon-podcast/

[austlar1]

Originally Posted by DCReid

But you do get some sharing of media markets between DC and Baltimore. For example, I lived in Prince Georges County near DC from 2006 - 2020 and was able to get football games for both the Redskins and Ravens - they would tend to show the games for both teams even when there was an option not to, such as in the case when the prime-time afternoon AFC game did not feature the Ravens, they still showed the Ravens. That being said, it is kind of telling how the metros have different identities if you look at baseball. I am not sure how many DC people followed the Orioles when DC had no team, but as soon as DC got the Nats, DC was all into the Nats from the very first day they arrived. And I did not get the vibe that DC people followed the Ravens much even when the Redskins were bad. In fact, more DC people seemed to followed the Cowboys than the Ravens - I am not sure why so many DC people followed the Cowboys when DC had the Redskins, but they did...I do think the metros may be classified as one sometime in the future however. Howard County and Ann Arndel counties are Baltimore metro but right next to the DC counties, and they are growing rapidly primarily from DC residents seeking good schools, more land, and better housing prices than Montgomery County (DC county with excellent schools and employers but high prices), and PG County (which has only mediocre schools and not many employers, but lower prices).

Yeah, I think a fair number of DC baseball fans used to go up to Baltimore back in the day, especially after Camden Yard opened. It made for a nice outing. I even went to see the Orioles in the last year they played at Memorial Stadium. Boy was that place a big old barn of a stadium. I don't think there are many Baltimore folks coming down to see the Nats. I don't think the Ravens have ever had a large following from DC neck of the woods, but I am really out of touch with pro football in that part of the country.

My fixation on media markets is not so much based on the availability of sports programming, although that is important in shaping regional identity. Nowadays especially, local TV stations are the main source of local news and weather in an era of declining newspaper readership. In the Washington-Baltimore corridor, DC stations focus on DC and the adjoining counties in NOVA and Maryland. Baltimore stations focus on Baltimore and adjoining counties. The backdrop behind the anchor desk tends to be a familiar local landmark or skyline. This is what people see and hear on a daily basis, and this goes a long way towards framing a person's notion about where they live. In the DFW area, the local stations tend to show either a Fort Worth or a Dallas skyline backdrop. They switch it regularly between one city or the other with the Dallas background being shown probably twice as often. The local news reporting covers the entire metro. So does the weather reporting and emergency weather reporting. A majority of viewers live in the sprawling suburbs rather than Dallas or Fort Worth, but their sense of place is reinforced by this type of programming. That is not operative in the Washington/Baltimore corridor, and is only somewhat operative in the SF Bay area where San Jose has its own TV stations providing local news and weather along with network broadcasting.

[dimondpark]

Originally Posted by austlar1

San Jose has its own TV stations providing local news and weather along with network broadcasting.

It doesnt tho anymore.

In fact, years ago when NBC was unable to acquire it's SF affiliate(KRON 4), the network abandoned SF altogether and elevated their San Jose affiliate(KNTV 11) to become the NBC station for the entire region.

it's called NBC Bay Area.

Other stations that covered SJ news in the past were really Monterey Bay stations, but SJ and the South Bay are all part of the larger San Francisco Bay tv media market.

Coincidentally, Solano County is interesting because from Fairfield up the the Yolo County line, they are covered by Sacramento stations as 'local' as well as by Bay Area stations.

[austlar1]

Originally Posted by dimondpark

It doesnt tho anymore.

In fact, years ago when NBC was unable to acquire it's SF affiliate(KRON 4), the network abandoned SF altogether and elevated their San Jose affiliate(KNTV 11) to become the NBC station for the entire region.

it's called NBC Bay Area.

Other stations that covered SJ news in the past were really Monterey Bay stations, but SJ and the South Bay are all part of the larger San Francisco Bay tv media market.

Coincidentally, Solano County is interesting because from Fairfield up the the Yolo County line, they are covered by Sacramento stations as 'local' as well as by Bay Area stations.

Interesting to learn and one more reason it seems logical to me to consider the SF Bay Area as a single cohesive metropolitan area.

[craigs]

In the Bay Area, the Fox, CBS, and ABC television networks have affiliates in the SF MSA but have no affiliate in the San Jose MSA; NBC is based in San Jose and has no affiliate in the SF MSA.

Meanwhile, the SF MSA has the region's only NBA team and both regional MLB teams, while the region's only NFL team is in the SJ MSA--and is called the "San Francisco" 49ers.