CFL 2023 season

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Nothing against Monkeytown either but it's definitely a distant second choice to Halifax for a team in the Maritimes. Sure, it's the Hub City and central to the region's population but even in Saskatchewan the vast majority of people at Riders games come from the Regina area and attendance from Saskatoon and other cities is gravy - still good to have but not your bread and butter.

I also think that people in Moncton are probably more likely to travel to Halifax for CFL games than Haligonians are to go to Moncton for the same reason. And there are way more Haligonians..

Bingo!

[TimB09]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

QC would be most welcome. I don't understand the lack of discussion either, but maybe there are forces at work behind the scenes.

Laval has a monopoly, and maybe the CFL would need to have its own facility. But it's a strong football market.

From what I've read and heard over the years, Laval is opposed to CFL setting up shop in QC.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by le calmar

Given the static nature of the league it doesn’t really surprise me that QC doesn’t have a team yet, but I admit I am surprised the idea is almost never discussed. Unlike Halifax, it hasn’t even been given any consideration. At least never in a serious manner.

Ambrosie talks about Quebec all the time and meets with Tanguay every year. Tanguay himself has stated the stadium is not suitable and cannot be made suitable for CFL. FWIW he also said they would need a stadium around 35k.

Without a new stadium, don't think about the CFL, says Tanguay
Olivier Bossé, Le Soleil June 16, 2023

With fewer than 13,000 seats, the Laval University stadium is not suitable for hosting a professional team. Above all, it turns out to be impossible to add new stands, according to Jacques Tanguay.

Without the construction of a brand new football stadium with around 35,000 seats in Quebec, Jacques Tanguay considers it far-fetched even to mention the possibility of installing a Canadian Football League club in the capital.

The question comes up repeatedly

On Thursday, the commissioner of the Canadian Football League (CFL),Randy Ambrosie, once again expressed the desire of the only professional oval ball circuit in Canada to add new teams to its ranks.

Among the cities or markets targeted, the name of Quebec comes up each time. Because of the success of amateur football, especially that of the Rouge et Or of Laval University. Also thanks to the sporting and economic successes of the region in general. Commissioner Ambrosie calls out by name the chairman of the board of directors of the Rouge et Or football club, of which he is also the main patron since its creation, Jacques Tanguay. The businessman has also just left his position as president of the Quebec major junior hockey club, the Remparts, crowned Canadian champions barely two weeks ago.

Time for politics to speak

All the love for Quebec that the CFL and its commissioner can show does not change the fact that the region does not have a football stadium worthy of a professional team, however, Mr. Tanguay retorts. “In Quebec, we don’t have a 35,000-seat stadium. And without that, no one can even think of being able to carry out a project like that,” summarized Mr. Tanguay at Le Soleil on Friday.

Tanguay and Ambrosie met last November, during the grand final of Canadian university football, the Vanier Cup game, which the Rouge et Or won again. They speak “every year,” agrees Mr. Tanguay.“But above all, we need to know if there is a political desire at the provincial and municipal levels. As for the rest, it’s completely hypothetical, so I’m not going to comment further than that. »
— Jacques Tanguay, businessman and president of Rouge et Or football

PEPS at its maximum

The UL PEPS stadium can accommodate 18,000 spectators, but with only 12,817 seats. Mr. Tanguay specifies that it is impossible to add other stands to what already exists. The place is at maximum capacity. In 2009, a complete section of 2,100 metal seats was installed on the east side of the stadium, behind the wooden stands already in place.

In Quebec, no stadium project is in the pipeline for the Marchand administration. But the advisor responsible for sports on the City's executive committee, Marie-Pierre Boucher, still shows a certain openness towards the CFL. “It’s always a pleasure to see that professional teams want to settle in Quebec. We are a city of champions and it shows. If the phone rings, we will answer, the door is always open,” commented Ms. Boucher in a written statement sent to Le Soleil.

[elly63]

Wouldn't it be something if Steele and/or Stingray was involved. With Stingray's experience in that lane, the CFL FAST channel that I am always going on about could happen. Each team and the league now create content without a central repository, it's just scattered to the Internet winds. With a FAST channel there wouldn't be any pretense for a CFL 2.0. The CFL could be viewed around the world with content from each team, game highlights, historic games, merch sales etc.

A man can dream can't he?

[le calmar]

Originally Posted by elly63

Ambrosie talks about Quebec all the time and meets with Tanguay every year.

I am sure they’re talking about it behind the scenes, as you demonstrated. I admit I wasn’t aware those discussions happened yearly. My impression, however, is that the possibility of a CFL team in Quebec City isn’t exactly being discussed by the locals, even just in a “that’d be cool” manner. It just appears to be completely under the radar. Possibly there’s still too much of a focus on a potential return of the Nordiques at this point in time.

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

Moncton is growing rapidly and I changed my post above to withdraw the comment about 1 CFL team in the Maritimes. I still think there's a big incentive to put the first team in the primary market though. I don't know about the future prospects of the CFL or how many teams they want to add, but I could see an argument for the odds of a Moncton team going up if a Halifax team is added.

Proportionally speaking, Moncton is the fastest growing city in the country (Halifax is #2). Halifax however has a head start, and, is about 2.8x the size of Moncton).

I agree that most of the fans filling seats in a stadium come from the local market area, and this gives Halifax a definite advantage. It is pretty obvious that Halifax will get the first team in the region.

Moncton however is growing, and, may be over 250,000 people in 25 years. I think this is sort of the base threshold population where you start thinking about being able to support a professional sports franchise. There is an intrinsic value to having regional rivalries, and, Moncton and Halifax are natural rivals. I could see a CFL team in Moncton eventually, fueled by civic pride and this regional rivalry. This, and the fact that Moncton is actually a local hotbed for football in the region (every high school has a team, high school games are well attended, successful local MFL franchise, at least a half dozen lighted artificial turf fields in the CMA).

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Acajack

but even in Saskatchewan the vast majority of people at Riders games come from the Regina area

I think there used to be this great myth that people traveled from far and wide to see the Riders and then I recall reading something which said the majority of fans attending were from Regina. I don't recall the number but when I say majority I mean over 75-80%.

Then about a year or so ago, I recall reading something (which may have been put out by Craig Reynolds) that said a very large number did come from outside Regina.

Take the above with a grain of salt as my memory isn't as good as it used to be, but I tried to find the last statement and here's as close as I got so far.

While the Saskatchewan Roughriders’ home opener wasn’t sold out, fan support remains strong
Taz Dhaliwal Global News June 13, 2022

"He also notes that a majority of those empty seats belonged to fans from out of town. A spokesperson with the Roughriders said roughly 50 per cent of their fan base travels from outside of Regina to attend games."

What the definition of how far "out of town" is, is debatable but still the statement is there.

[zoomer]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Proportionally speaking, Moncton is the fastest growing city in the country (Halifax is #2). Halifax however has a head start, and, is about 2.8x the size of Moncton).

I agree that most of the fans filling seats in a stadium come from the local market area, and this gives Halifax a definite advantage. It is pretty obvious that Halifax will get the first team in the region.

Moncton however is growing, and, may be over 250,000 people in 25 years. I think this is sort of the base threshold population where you start thinking about being able to support a professional sports franchise. There is an intrinsic value to having regional rivalries, and, Moncton and Halifax are natural rivals. I could see a CFL team in Moncton eventually, fueled by civic pride and this regional rivalry. This, and the fact that Moncton is actually a local hotbed for football in the region (every high school has a team, high school games are well attended, successful local MFL franchise, at least a half dozen lighted artificial turf fields in the CMA).

For the record I’ll predict Moncton hits 250,000 not in 25 but in 11 years.

The 2022 population estimate was 171,608, up nearly 9,000 from the previous year. While I don’t expect it to average 9,000 per year moving forward, neither do I think it’ll sink back to the typical 3,000 per year growth. 2023 estimate will likely be very near 180,000, then only 70,000 more to go in 11 years.

That said, probably still too small for the CFL, unless they go the CPL route of being able to manage with smaller cities/stadiums. It’s a brutal expense to build a modest football stadium that will get limited use so I think the days of traditional stadiums are long gone. Perhaps the money is in tv/streaming contracts and the in-person attendance is gravy. When cities 10 x or more the population of Regina can’t outdraw it the economic model for big stadiums in Canada is dead. Maybe we should aim for the world’s best cosiest, fan friendly outdoor stadiums. Some good baseball examples at least, such as Nat Bailey stadium in Vancouver, Blue Cross in Winnipeg - can that idea be carried over to football?

How about Omaha’s Burke Stadium, but on a bigger scale - some permanent seating, but sloped grass fields around it to allow for festival type seating, food trucks, etc. Can we build 20,000 capacity stadiums like this for 100 million? Minus the track of course



Source

[elly63]

Most universities in the country have a stadium like that, but that's not what the modern fan wants and what will make money.

[zoomer]

The only way teams currently ‘make money’ (and not much) is by having taxpayers subsidize or fully pay for the stadium. Not sure if that’s something we can expect in the future. As long as the seats that exist are comfortable and the experience is great do most fans care about luxury boxes, concession stands where the food usually sucks and a giant video screen? Admittedly this approach would be less successful in cold weather climates.

Also, not just a typical university stadium which usually consists of decades old grandstand and not much else, but a new concept for outdoor stadiums where the natural environment is brought into play as much as possible.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by zoomer

The 2022 population estimate was 171,608, up nearly 9,000 from the previous year. While I don’t expect it to average 9,000 per year moving forward, neither do I think it’ll sink back to the typical 3,000 per year growth. 2023 estimate will likely be very near 180,000, then only 70,000 more to go in 11 years.

The demographics are really changing quickly in the Maritimes. It's affecting a lot of things like even the structure of the provincial budgets (servicing cost per capita declining as the population shifts from being old and rural to young and urban) and it will affect the relationship of urban and rural areas in the region and the balance of political power within the region eventually. It'll be harder and harder for provincial legislatures to be dominated by rural politicians.

I don't know about Moncton (I assume it's the same) but the local media in Halifax reported the growth rate is higher this year than last and said the population of the municipality alone increased by something like 26,000. The metro area geographically expanded to encompass 26,000 or so more people in the 2021 census period as some areas went above the commuting threshold but this wasn't yet reflected in the population estimates. I think for the purposes of any major multi-year project, the local market size will be in the 600,000-700,000 range. Unfortunately, this hasn't really sunk in yet with the municipality or province for the most part. They did go back to the drawing board with a hospital project because they realized it was woefully undersized for the population it would have to serve once completed.

Another aspect is the centre of gravity in the region is very quickly moving even more toward the Halifax-Moncton axis. I'd say this is more or less normal within Canada and the relative lack of urban development and concentration in the Maritimes was the aberration. Anyway, I could see this area feeling more integrated in the future, having a lot more population, and something like 2 CFL teams someday would fit in with that trend.

[thurmas]

Teams make money from suites and party decks look at Saskatchewan Winnipeg and Hamilton for that. Wrightman the Alouettes president mentioned he was envious of that and wished Alouettes could have something similar. Some bare bones bench only stadium with none of those makes profitability even harder. Fans in the 21st century have a certain expectation for some amenities these days.

[zoomer]

Someone123 - If Halifax and Moncton both got CFL teams in my lifetime I’d definitely make a trip and hit both for back to back CFL games. Although CFL teams return home between games, imagine a scenario where the BC Lions (insert your favourite team) play a Sunday game in Halifax and then the Friday night or Saturday game in Moncton. Would be a good tourism draw in the summer months.

Thurmas - and I admit this is exploratory and perhaps not feasible, but here’s one more shot a promoting the cause for smaller ‘natural’ stadiums. I’m not talking about a bare bones stadium, but a beautiful one that people would flock to because of the natural setting and environment and natural landscaping within the stadium. Could be along a river or harbour downtown, up against a cliff, etc. The party decks would be bigger than what you could fit into the end zone of a current stadium. You can charge a premium for fans to sit there just as they do for outdoor concerts.

Today IG stadium (32,344 capacity) would probably cost at least 400 million to build, NFL stadiums are 1 billion plus - just doesn’t make sense economically and environmentally to invest this much in structures that have a 30 to 50 year life span and sit empty most of the year. Is there not an environmentally and financially lighter way to host 20,000 people in a facility that is an attraction in itself to fans and provides the necessary infrastructure to host events? Maybe the price tag has to be closer to 200 million. I think we need a radical rethink of what a stadium is except it’s not in the vested interest of those involved to deviate from what we know today.

Just glanced quickly at some Winnipeg numbers (being one of if not the most successful CFL franchise the past decade) and in 2022 they posted a $4.9 million dollar profit on revenue of $45.4 million with gate receipts of $13.8 million. So how much did having luxury boxes and party zones really add to the gate receipts - maybe 4 million per year? Is that worth the extra true cost of building those amenities in a 32K seat stadium?

https://www.bluebombers.com/2023/04/...llion-in-2022/

Now this report is five years old, so the numbers may have escalated since, but it estimates the final tab to build the IG in Winnipeg was $270 million +, with the province writing off $201 million in loans, meaning that amount will be paid by tax payers and will be much higher when you take into account interest costs.

According to this article the Bombers pay a maximum of $4.4 million in rent yearly.

https://winnipegsun.com/news/news-ne...uditor-general

Yes, governments nearly always subsidize stadiums, but we need a better economic model that costs less and in the end can provide greater overall returns when you look at the true cost. Sometimes spending $100 to ‘make’ $140 is better than spending $200 to make $210. Although with stadiums it’s more about minimizing the total losses.

[elly63]

Not to get too far off the CFL topic

For years I've read posts bitching about the old style CFL stadiums (two opposing grandstands with open ends). Now, I am reading Zoomer's posts about a natural setting and environment and natural landscaping within the stadium. I can see his point somewhat.

There is a 30k stadium in Portugal (Estádio Municipal de Braga) called A Pedreira (The Quarry), for being carved into the side of a mountain. It has won design awards and was designed by Portuguese architect Eduardo Souto de Moura who was awarded the Pritzker Architecture Prize in part for this design.

The irony is aside from the mountain I don't think I've ever seen such an old school CFL looking stadium.

• Video Link

[zoomer]

/\ nice find elly63! The final seconds of that video show it a bit better in terms of being integrated into the cliffside, but the grandstands are still old school and kind of ugly - yet it won an award!

I’m thinking of something with a lighter construction profile, but there isn’t anything out there I can find, so I had Chat GPT do a crappy version below. It’s bigger than 20,000 and has seating on both ends despite my instructions to the opposite, lol - but I think something smaller than this with less concrete and construction is more feasible that the traditional stadium approach.

Chat GPT AI stadium vision by JohnnyJayEh, on Flickr

The problem with the traditional stadium approach - a highly successful Winnipeg makes a $5 million profit last year on a stadium in today’s dollars is likely a $400 million dollar stadium. How would Halifax and down the line Saskatoon, Moncton, Kelowna, Victoria be able to enter the CFL with a stadium that expensive when there are huge social pressures that are taking priority. Even a much more modest traditional stadium concept that isn’t just temporary stands will be $300 million.

Winnipeg is closing in on 1 million people, if they can only generate $5 million in profit with a taxpayer funded stadium what hope do smaller cities have? Ideally by gradually reducing reliance on gate receipts (making smaller stadiums more viable), increasing league revenue from all other sources including TV/streaming, merchandise, etc. I’d rather see a game at sold out 15 or 20,000 seat stadium than one at a half full (empty) larger stadium.

[elly63]

I am agreeing with some of your thoughts and find them interesting but I have to debate in my head whether they are practical. For one, I'm not sure if the idea of sitting on a berm for late season CFL games is appealing.

Don't ever underestimate people's wimpiness when faced with cold and/or rain and snow.

You have to come up with the same amenities: food, drink, wifi that people can get watching their big screen at home. I do believe the modern fan consumes the game experience differently than in the past. As I noted in another post Hamilton had a large sellout but when watching on TV the upper sections of the stadium were empty. Those people were in the communal plazas or party decks.

Smaller stadiums are very much the trend in both the CFL and NFL. Montreal's Mark Wightman stated that a 20k stadium could suit them fine with new pricing models and features vs the traditional seat selling model.

The graphic is interesting, it looks to have elements of the TD Place veil, and the concrete benches at the infamous Allen, Texas high school stadium (Eagle Stadium)

[zoomer]

All good points elly63. I could be wrong but I think fans want a more authentic, intimate, outdoor experience that is fan lead. Are we the type of country for that - dunno. As much as I like BC Place for games, like all football and hockey arena productions I find the experience on the annoying side - blaring music for 30 second spurts, screaming stadium announcers, and most irritating of all “MAKE SOME NOOISE!”. Shoot me now. And yes, the stadium above is not ideal in bad weather. And now I let this hobby horse die, thanks for humouring me

[elly63]

Originally Posted by zoomer

I think fans want a more authentic, intimate, outdoor experience that is fan lead. Are we the type of country for that - dunno. As much as I like BC Place for games, like all football and hockey arena productions I find the experience on the annoying side - blaring music for 30 second spurts, screaming stadium announcers, and most irritating of all “MAKE SOME NOOISE!”.

Maybe that is your issue moreso than the stadium design. I couldn't agree with you more. There's something totally egregious about being spoon fed your feelings and reactions.

Just last night I was watching a YT vid about two British guys going to their first hockey game in Nashville. I heard and saw all the stuff you mentioned above. Does anybody actually like that?

I wish a funeral conglomerate would buy a team, give their arena the obligatory annoying pet name (The Morgue) and let the fans present provide the noise and colour without prompting.

I'm not trying to pretend I'm some great old school fan or even worse the soccer poseurs who pretend they are wannabe hooligans, I just can't stand that crap. It's even worse when we do it in arenas in Canada, we know hockey, we really don't need to sell it. The whole thing is annoying AF

I knew a guy who always had to have noise (a radio) going. It distracted him from his work and he f'ed up all the time. Not great when you're dealing with aircraft. It's like he was afraid to be alone with his thoughts or even worse when people are afraid to talk to their neighbours ie individuals on a sports team on a bus listening to their music with their headphones.

Old man rant over. No need to post the Abe Simpson picture, I have it on my PC

[craner]

Expansion 1 - 10 team CFL - Add Halifax.
Expansion 2 - 12 team CFL - Add QC & Kelowna.
Expansion 3 - 14 team CFL - Add London & Saskatoon.

Beyond that I don’t know - Windsor, Moncton, KWC, Victoria ?

As was mentioned you would have to be concerned with diluting the talent pool and thus allow more NCAA players (i.e. reduce the Canadian ratio).

Just my thoughts (it’s fun to dream).

[elly63]

Return to balance: CFL reveals schedule for 2024 season
3Down Staff 3downnation.com December 14, 2023

The Canadian Football League has unveiled their schedule for the 2024 season, returning the league to a balanced slate for the first time since the COVID-19 pandemic.

The league has played an unbalanced schedule since it returned to the field in 2021, prioritizing divisional matchups as a cost-saving measure. That resulted in certain teams playing one another more frequently, with the Hamilton Tiger-Cats and Toronto Argonauts meeting 12 times during the regular season since 2021, including four times in five weeks during the summer of 2022.

The move will see a much-anticipated Grey Cup rematch in Week 1, something that fans missed out on a year ago. The Winnipeg Blue Bombers will host the Montreal Alouettes on Thursday, June 6 for the CFL season kickoff at 8:30 p.m. ET, with the Hamilton Tiger-Cats visiting the Calgary Stampeders, Edmonton Elks hosting the Saskatchewan Roughriders, and B.C. Lions travelling to the Toronto Argonauts on each subsequent day of the opening weekend.

The league will once again feature a consistent Thursday through Sunday slate throughout the summer, which drew rave reviews in 2023. The last Thursday game of the season will be played in Week 12, as the Saskatchewan Roughriders visit the Toronto Argonauts on August 22.

The following week, all of the league’s traditional Labour Day rivalries will be on display, in addition to a special Touchdown Pacific clash between the B.C. Lions and Ottawa Redblacks in Victoria on Saturday, August 31. The Toronto Argonauts and Hamilton Tiger-Cats will not have a back-to-back rematch on the following weekend, however, as the two Ontario foes don’t meet again until Week 16.

Other key games include a Thanksgiving Monday clash between the Ottawa Redblacks and Montreal Alouettes on October 14. The Redblacks will also be involved in the annual Hall of Fame game, visiting the Hamilton Tiger-Cats on Saturday, September 14.

All playoff matchups will once again be set for Saturdays in 2024, with the Divisional Semi-Finals slated for November 2 and the Finals taking place on November 9. The 111th Grey Cup will remain on a Sunday, as Vancouver is set to play host to the event on November 17 at 6:30 p.m. ET.

CFL action will officially resume with the preseason, which commences on Monday, May 20 when the Winnipeg Blue Bombers meet the Saskatchewan Roughriders.

The full CFL schedule can be viewed here.