Heavy Rail vs. Light Rail

[ATLMidcity]

MARTA hasn't produced 1 mile of new rail transit since the 1996 Olympics came to town.
A couple of failed referendums resulted in nothing happening on a metro-wide scale, and Gwinnett County has twice defeated heavy rail transit at the ballot box.
Only Clayton County has decided to join MARTA with heavy rail being promised but not yet delivered.

So, should metro Atlanta supplement MARTA's heavy rail system by adding light rail connections to MARTA's existing rail stations?

The cost of heavy rail versus light rail per mile is considerably higher to build.

Or should the metro go bus rapid transit to augment the heavy rail system?

Or should we stick with the status quo of do nothing until we drag the rest of the metro kickin' and screaming into an expanded heavy rail transit system?

[montydawg]

Originally Posted by ATLMidcity

MARTA hasn't produced 1 mile of new rail transit since the 1996 Olympics came to town.
A couple of failed referendums resulted in nothing happening on a metro-wide scale, and Gwinnett County has twice defeated heavy rail transit at the ballot box.
Only Clayton County has decided to join MARTA with heavy rail being promised but not yet delivered.

So, should metro Atlanta supplement MARTA's heavy rail system by adding light rail connections to MARTA's existing rail stations?

The cost of heavy rail versus light rail per mile is considerably higher to build.

Or should the metro go bus rapid transit to augment the heavy rail system?

Or should we stick with the status quo of do nothing until we drag the rest of the metro kickin' and screaming into an expanded heavy rail transit system?

I am probably thinking more regionally than most people on this forum, but I believe we need 'commuter rail', like METRA in Chicago, LIRR in NYC, etc in Atlanta, which would allow Kennesaw, Marietta, Buford, Lawrenceville, Forest Park, Union City, etc to travel to downtown Atlanta. Light rail would be great in town as well

[bryantm3]

I think a mixture would be nice, depending on where in the city you're going.

Given Atlanta's streetcar history, I think it would be neat to have one or two lines with a reproduction early 1900s car, maybe following the curved streets on the east side that were originally designed to have streetcars- Mauldin, Flat Shoals, Arkwright, etc., in some portions, the grade is separated from vehicle traffic.

It would be nice to see some older lines like that come back, along with the routes on the beltline and other last mile routes.

Heavy rail, I think given what we already have as a starting point, needs to be a dual system that's concentrated towards the dense population/job centers, and commuters between those centers.

I used to be for transit-oriented development, but seeing the parking decks and big apartment complexes they're trying to fit in these places that were really not intended to go, i think from here on out, there really should only be heavy rail expansion where it's needed, and big transit centers with parking lots should be kept to a minimum outside of the urban centers and commuter stations near freeways.

Really we need funding for both.

[Username123]

Originally Posted by ATLMidcity

MARTA hasn't produced 1 mile of new rail transit since the 1996 Olympics came to town.

North Springs Station and Sandy Springs station were opened in 2000.

[Libertarian]

Preaching to the choir I know, but whatever is proposed for public mass transit should consider long term trends in ridership as well as remaining available sources of funding.

[shivtim]

Originally Posted by ATLMidcity

Only Clayton County has decided to join MARTA with heavy rail being promised but not yet delivered.

It's a bit more complicated - heavy rail was not promised. "High capacity transit" was the wording used, and it was clear that Clayton could get BRT or commuter rail. MARTA did open the new Clayton County bus transit hub this year. The main goal of Clayton joining MARTA was to restore bus service.

[Tuckerman]

It is sad that we have spent so many years of debate over mass transit, yielding almost nothing in actual results. It is an American problem – we just don’t invest in rail, mass-transit, and public transit systems. It is pathetic. In comparison, many countries throughout the world, not just the European region, invest considerable portions of their transportation budget to mass transit. And. They do it quickly when needed. When I first went to Beijing in the 1990s the city had a small, rather inefficient transit system. In about 20 years they managed to build a new heavy rail, underground with state of the art design- fast efficient, comprehensive and easy to use even by a non-Chinese speaker. Curiously, we seem in the U.S. to be able to build extensive costly road systems at a rapid pace. It is all about priorities.

For years we have talked about the “brain train” commuter rail running from Athens, through Gwinnett, Tucker, Decatur, Emory ending at Ga. State but with just obstruction and disinterest from private railways. Amazingly such suburban commuter systems developed all around the world and remain highly useful and integrated into underground transit systems. MARTA in many ways should applauded because it is one of the few high speed rail systems in US urban areas that was build in modern times and yet it is a shadow of its conception and remains limited and incomplete. Not surprisingly one of the few comprehensive subway systems in the US built in recent times is the DC Metro, serving rapid efficient service (especially to Reagan Airport) for legislators and lobbyists who decline to spend any significant federal funds to support such efforts in the rest of the country.

So it hard to be enthusiastic about any changes in US rapid transit support in the foreseeable future. We may have some local political support, but forget about State and Federal support in the future- the evidence from the past is overwhelming.

[ATLMidcity]

Originally Posted by Username123

North Springs Station and Sandy Springs station were opened in 2000.

Oaky 20 years ago instead of 24 years ago - my bad. Still pitiful compared to other rapidly developing metros in the U.S.

Denver, Charlotte, Seattle, Portland, Los Angeles, and even tiny metro Salt Lake City all have implemented more rail miles than booming Atlanta. What gives?

[shivtim]

Originally Posted by ATLMidcity

Denver, Charlotte, Seattle, Portland, Los Angeles, and even tiny metro Salt Lake City all have implemented more rail miles than booming Atlanta. What gives?

Well for one, Atlanta had heavy rail before any of those cities even thought about their light rails systems. So those cities are still playing catch-up to us. I'll take Atlanta's 48 miles of grade-separated heavy rail any day over the light rail in the cities you mention.

Los Angeles isn't really in the conversation because it's just on a whole other level than Atlanta in terms of size, tax base, and state support. Seattle and Portland (and to some degree central Denver) have urban forms that are much more conducive to transit, walking, and biking.

Really you should be comparing Atlanta to peer cities like Houston, Nashville, Dallas, Miami, etc., and we blow them all out of the water in terms of rail transit ridership. In fact, depending on how you count, MARTA is in the top 10 most used transit systems in the country. MARTA weekday rail ridership is more than Dallas DART, Houston MetroRail, Charlotte Lynx, and the Portland streetcar combined.

[montydawg]

Originally Posted by shivtim

Well for one, Atlanta had heavy rail before any of those cities even thought about their light rails systems. So those cities are still playing catch-up to us. I'll take Atlanta's 48 miles of grade-separated heavy rail any day over the light rail in the cities you mention.
.

I agree with everything you said, however having been in all of those cities in the past 5 years (except Dallas) I think Atlanta is on par or is exceeds these cities as far as walkability. I will concede Denver and Portland have better urban environments than Atlanta, but actually walkability has incredibly improved in the last 15 years in Atlanta. Atlanta just needs more density. If Atlanta can realize it’s goal of establishing light rail from Emory to east point, and somehow get some reliable transit to the west side, I think we would have a great transit system. I think the BRT up GA 400 will also reshape some of the ‘urban’ nodes up in Roswell/Alpharetta, and would be a model for other suburban communities.

[atlnative73]

I am not a fan of Light rail unless you are a tourist and don't mind going 35 miles an hour and making a stop every 2-3 minutes.
A few years back in Minneapolis I took light rail from Mall of America to Downtown near the Target Center for a Twins game.
It took 45 minutes to arrive. It was painfully slow.
Same ride with Uber would take 10-15 mins depending on traffic.

[NYbyWAYofGA]

Originally Posted by montydawg

I agree with everything you said, however having been in all of those cities in the past 5 years (except Dallas) I think Atlanta is on par or is exceeds these cities as far as walkability. I will concede Denver and Portland have better urban environments than Atlanta, but actually walkability has incredibly improved in the last 15 years in Atlanta. Atlanta just needs more density. If Atlanta can realize it’s goal of establishing light rail from Emory to east point, and somehow get some reliable transit to the west side, I think we would have a great transit system. I think the BRT up GA 400 will also reshape some of the ‘urban’ nodes up in Roswell/Alpharetta, and would be a model for other suburban communities.

I agree with you. Atlanta has made great strides and will be on par with those cities, if this pattern keeps up. The only missing link is more "Missing Middle" fine grained density along the major corridors and, of course, more transit options.

[NYbyWAYofGA]

Originally Posted by atlnative73

I am not a fan of Light rail unless you are a tourist and don't mind going 35 miles an hour and making a stop every 2-3 minutes.
A few years back in Minneapolis I took light rail from Mall of America to Downtown near the Target Center for a Twins game.
It took 45 minutes to arrive. It was painfully slow.
Same ride with Uber would take 10-15 mins depending on traffic.

That's a great point. I think the city should also look into "jitney" shuttles as an option and supplement to cover for the" last mile."

[Libertarian]

The best application for light rail in Atlanta would be the proposed Lindbergh - CDC - Emory - Decatur link. The Siemens equipment currently being used downtown should be repurposed for that use.

[bryantm3]

Did they do a cost estimate of light rail minus the shared right-of-way for Clifton Corridor? Light rail is a good idea but having to share really crowded roads like Clifton and Scott Blvd... Idk. I can see that line being shut down a lot with someone parked on the rails. I mean, it's Atlanta.

[shivtim]

Originally Posted by bryantm3

Did they do a cost estimate of light rail minus the shared right-of-way for Clifton Corridor? Light rail is a good idea but having to share really crowded roads like Clifton and Scott Blvd... Idk. I can see that line being shut down a lot with someone parked on the rails. I mean, it's Atlanta.

Yes, they've done years (maybe a decade?) of planning including choices of multiple alignments. In the most up-to-date plans, most of it is off-road (either elevated, underground, or with its own dedicated at-grade lane). But it still crosses intersections and in some places might run with mixed traffic, so it's light rail. For your specific example, Clifton, the northern end is planned to be underground, and the southern end in the center median of the road in its own right-of-way. For Scott it states "Tunnel under Scott Boulevard/Medlock Road intersection through Church Street – no rail through these intersections."

[GeorgiaPeanuts]

Light rail in Seattle was fast from airport to downtown

[jct3]

Originally Posted by Tuckerman

It is sad that we have spent so many years of debate over mass transit, yielding almost nothing in actual results. It is an American problem – we just don’t invest in rail, mass-transit, and public transit systems. It is pathetic. In comparison, many countries throughout the world, not just the European region, invest considerable portions of their transportation budget to mass transit. And. They do it quickly when needed. When I first went to Beijing in the 1990s the city had a small, rather inefficient transit system. In about 20 years they managed to build a new heavy rail, underground with state of the art design- fast efficient, comprehensive and easy to use even by a non-Chinese speaker. Curiously, we seem in the U.S. to be able to build extensive costly road systems at a rapid pace. It is all about priorities.

Especially in China, don't discount the ease with which they can do things since they're not accountable to voters or to any serious criticism. In most of the US proposing to shift significant dollars from roads to transit will get you voted out. What flies in Portland likely won't in Dallas or Atlanta.

I imagine it's easier in Europe because many of the cities have been around much longer and were not designed around automobiles so the cost equation changes. And it does costs a lot more per-mile in the US than elsewhere for various reasons.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...than-its-peers

Even in places like Switzerland, which has such awesome public transit it'll blow your mind (anyone who supports public transit should visit), it's probably easy and popular with voters because I imagine it's often cheaper than roads due to the terrain. Those are rough mountains; I'd guess even drilling is cheaper than going around or over many of them.

[Street Advocate]

IMO, we need a bit of it all.

Prioritize creating dedicated lanes for buses, increase frequencies, straighten out the crosstown lines, and add a few new transit lines in its own right of way.

[Martinman]

Originally Posted by montydawg

I am probably thinking more regionally than most people on this forum, but I believe we need 'commuter rail', like METRA in Chicago, LIRR in NYC, etc in Atlanta, which would allow Kennesaw, Marietta, Buford, Lawrenceville, Forest Park, Union City, etc to travel to downtown Atlanta. Light rail would be great in town as well

Commuter rail would have been great and it's the shame it wasn't started years ago. The problem is the state seems to have no interest in it and the level of cooperation across county lines is close to zero. For that reason, I have given up hope for anything to happen on a regional scale. I also believe that it's probably a better long-term strategy to build up density in the close in neighborhoods to better support transit while expanding on the HRT spine wherever possible within the central core.