PHILADELPHIA | 76 Place | 412 FT | 30 FLOORS

[Groundhog]

I'm going to do my best to stay on topic here, because there's a lot of back and forth that's getting way off topic. Not sure what the history of the NHL or Amazon, Sunoco, Miami, or Liberty Place have to do with this.

Originally Posted by wanderer34

This post is very immature immature immature if you ask me. Do you even know the real reason why the Sports Complex was built in the first place. It has ties going back to to the 1926 Sesquicentennial Exposition, with JFK Stadium (formerly Philadelphia Municipal Stadium).

No, this is the part you wish to ignore because it counters everything you say. It comes down to the financials. The financials are the reason they are leaving the WFC. The financials are the reason they are looking at a differentiated location. It doesn’t take an MBA to understand this. They’re not going to cannibalize the WFC by building a competing arena right next door. That's bad business.

And yes, the complex was built at a very different time, with very different urban priorities than we have today.

Originally Posted by wanderer34

I believe Pattison Station is sufficient enough because it's a terminal

And I believe the traffic issues you claim a Center City arena will cause will be relieved by public transit. I have not seen anything to state otherwise other than vague beliefs. While Pattison/the BSL is quasi-sufficient for the complex, the options at Market East are a vast improvement over that. The fact that it is a terminal is one of the issues, because people can only arrive from one direction. If the BSL can send 6 cars south to the stadiums, the MSL can send 6 cars east and 6 cars west simultaneously (6+6=12 and 12>6). Add the regional rail and trolleys too if you’d like, but that baseline of subway traffic alone tells you all you need. If you continue to struggle with the math, I can have my 7 year old explain it to you.

Originally Posted by wanderer34

And I'm also not convinced that building the Center City arena will all of a sudden make SEPTA this model of mass transit when it's the polar opposite meaning it's the worst mass transit system in the country, IMHO!

It isn’t and nobody is saying it will make it a “model of mass transit”, again, please stop with the strawman arguments.

Originally Posted by wanderer34

Even if we did build the Center City arena, crime, poverty, miseducation, drugs, and homelessness aren't going to just disappear just because of an arena.

Again, enough with the strawman arguments! NOBODY SAID THIS!!!!

Originally Posted by wanderer34

The peer that we have is called the Wells Fargo Center. And if Harris wanted to build an even more modern stadium, all that could've been done at the sports complex.

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, but this has already been covered. We’re talking about an urban downtown arena. If you think that the WFC is that, then I suggest you refamiliarize yourself with the city. Maybe in a sprawling sunbelt city you could squint and see the WFC as a connected part of downtown, but not in the Northeast my friend.

Originally Posted by wanderer34

My assumptions is that you don't care about the well being, the communities, and the diversity of Philadelphia. If building a basketball arena in Center City just because you want a shorter commute from West Philadelphia is your wish, at the expense of people who want to preserve an ethnic enclave, I'm already convinced that your character is so self-centered that you could give a damn about other people and their beliefs and culture.

If destroying an enclave like Chinatown or even Midtown Village is the way to progress and revitalization, then I say just build the arena. I also say that losing whatever ethnic enclave at the expense of a millionaire and his pet project means that Philadelphia has lost it's soul as a city and doesn't regard it's communities in any way.

Your assumptions are all wrong. I very much care about the diversity of the city. Maybe you struggle with reading comprehension or just don’t care to fully digest what other people say, but I have stated MULTIPLE TIMES that I’m sad they’re leaving the WFC. I don’t want a Market East arena for “self-centered” easier commute. I want it because it is one of the better options after considering the FACTS and accepting that they will be leaving South Philly. One of the things that makes it a better location than many alternatives? Easier public transit access in EVERY direction. Yes, that includes West Philly. It also includes the Northeast (at least parts with MFL access), Northwest, and the suburbs due to regional rail connectivity. It does not greatly impact BSL riders either.

Your framing this as an argument between preservation of ethnic enclaves vs better public transit connections is wrong (hey, look, another wrong assumption!). I don’t believe the arena will impact Chinatown negatively. Nothing you or anyone else against it has said anything that makes me think it might. The myth that arenas lead to gentrification has been debunked and when you tried to bring up DC as an example, it was quickly shot down with actual facts and history. My believes will change when I see persuasive data that tell me otherwise. That hasn’t happened here.

Also, referring to the Gayborhood as “Midtown Village,” while stating that you’re worried about losing a minority community enclave at the expense of millionaires is a bit out of touch. Who do you think came up with that nomenclature? Do you think the longer term LGTBQ+ residents appreciate the forced rebranding? (fun fact – they don’t!). It is language used to try and make the area more desirable to outside investment. They type of investment you claim to be against.

Originally Posted by wanderer34

Are you 100% sure that Harris will pay for the rail, electrical, traffic, and water and sewage improvements? I don't even recall Harris saying anything about those but just buying up the land and building the arena and it doesn't defend your case!

I’m not 100% sure, but with the amount of focus and pressure on him, as with the PR front they’re putting on, I am optimistic that it will happen. You are not 100% sure they won’t either. This is something that we shall see, but the studies being done will likely make recommendations that will lead to this.

Originally Posted by wanderer34

Did you forget that the real world doesn't revolve around just you. Not everybody has the privilege of living next to a stadium, arena, or sporting venue!

I did, appreciate the reminder. I'm so spoiled living right next to the sports complex in WEST Philly.

Originally Posted by wanderer34

I always wanted to see the Giants play football, but as a youth in Brooklyn, the Giants play in the Meadowlands, and in order to go to the Meadowlands, there was two ways: either by car, by bus via the Port Authority, or by subway train to the commuter rail to the Meadowlands.

For such a trip, that meant it would take up to 45 min to Penn Station from Brooklyn, depending on how fast the subway train is, to the Meadowlands Shuttle, who operates about 30 min to Metlife, or travel up to 42nd St and take the bus to the Meadowlands for almost an hour, making the trip about 2 hours, excluding subway delays, gridlock, and accidents either on the railway or the roadways, and not to mention the tens of thousands of spectators waiting for over an hour just to be first in the gate and in their seats, which is why I suggested to arrive 1-2 hours before game time since 30 min is unrealistic to think you'll make it from your home to your assigned seat, when you have people who'll wait hours just to be first in line!

It's a good thing none of Philly’s stadiums are as poorly connected to the community as the Meadowlands (although you said there were two ways to get there and immediately listed three, so that's nice). I’m sorry you had to deal with that, it sounds miserable. That is not a goal to strive for. Philly can (and does) do better.

All that said, and we're mixing sports here, but you started that, so I'm just running with it. What if the Meadowlands was at MSG? Your trip would be over in 45min! Substantially less than 2 hours. Do you see the parallel?

Also, not everyone has the privilege of going to these events live, and even fewer have the privilege of wasting 2-4 hours commuting to games. You want to exclude people by putting up more barriers to access? The Meadowlands sounds like a great example of how to do that.

The best sporting event I’ve ever been to was the 6 OT Syracuse-UCONN Big East Tournament game in MSG. I was working in the Bellevue and was offered tickets the day of. I left work at 5p, jumped on the R7 to Trenton, transferred, and made it to the game in 2 hours. I wouldn’t have been able to attend the greatest basketball game I’ll likely ever see if MSG wasn’t so well connected to public transit (just like the 6ers proposal is). So yes, I can see it taking 2 hours to get to a game in NYC from Philly, but to need to go to a game in your own city and have it take that long is ridiculous and exclusionary.

Originally Posted by wanderer34

Once again, you plan early for these special events. Just because you left 30 min from home before game time doesn't assure you that you'll make it to the gate! That's on you (and SEPTA)!

I’d rather trust SEPTA than traffic on 76, 676, or 95.


In the end it seems that we both like the idea of the 6ers staying in the sports complex, but I’ve accepted the financial reality that Harris, or any other owner, would not build a new arena next door to a competitor and would instead look to differentiate in some way (i.e. location). You are fighting this.

You believe that an arena will hurt Chinatown and “Midtown Village” (actually known as the Gayborhood). I disagree because logic and the fact that these arenas have never destroyed neighborhoods or led to gentrification.

You prioritize cars, don’t trust SEPTA, but see the BSL as fine and counterbalanced by multiple highway access points. I see greater connectively of public transit as a key benefit and something that will reduce the reliance on cars. I see commute time to a venue as important, you don’t.

I’m not sure we will see eye to eye on this, but at the end of the day the 6ers are going somewhere, I’m sorry you can’t see any silver linings to the breakup of the big 4 sports in South Philly. My main point in all this is that if they have to move out of the complex, Market East is one of the best possible outcomes. Hopefully they stick the landing right and build a world class arena and Harris and Co, do the right thing and pay for all the improvements needed along the way. I hope it rejuvenates Market Street, and allows Chinatown thrive.

[thoughtcriminal]

Be more tedious and pedantic

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I'm going to do my best to stay on topic here, because there's a lot of back and forth that's getting way off topic. Not sure what the history of the NHL or Amazon, Sunoco, Miami, or Liberty Place have to do with this.



No, this is the part you wish to ignore because it counters everything you say. It comes down to the financials. The financials are the reason they are leaving the WFC. The financials are the reason they are looking at a differentiated location. It doesn’t take an MBA to understand this. They’re not going to cannibalize the WFC by building a competing arena right next door. That's bad business.

And yes, the complex was built at a very different time, with very different urban priorities than we have today.

I get that the financial reality of the 76ers aren't the best right now due to Snider selling the 76ers to Harris over a decade ago. I don't care about whether he wants another arena (even though I don't agree with separating the Flyers and 76ers, but that's personal as well as sentimental), my only concern is the location of the proposed arena.

Yes, the Sports Complex was conceived in the 1960's, and it was a modern marvel during that time. There have been a lot of things that have been conceived up from the 60's, some which have benefitted society (civil rights, space age and computer technology, music, etc.), and others which haven't captivated the imagination of a lot of people (architecture), but I'm thinking that with the exception of the Eagles, who desperately need the space to handle over 60K spectators, that if the 76ers do get their downtown arena, then the Phillies should follow suit and move probably to Broad and Vine, and the 76ers, once the WFC goes out of style, move to 8th and Market and get their own ice rink, according to your own logic???

The Sports Complex was designed to handle large amounts of spectators who aren't just going to go the the games, but those who want to hang out outside of the stadiums and arenas just to capture the energy of just being near a sporting event.

I can also understand why the Sports Complex was also designed: some people just aren't interested in sports like that and other are very lukewarm about contact sports like football and hockey, namely, the arts and gallery crowd. Also, some people don't want to live next to an arena, let alone, hear the roars, the cheers, and the boos that come out of those stadiums. And lets not forget the drunks and yahoos that come out during every game doing whatever. It's bad enough we're known for fans that eat horse crap after every championship (I know, that happened in Center City).

Finally, even though I've avowed never the return to the city for living purposes, I still believe that there should be something for everybody, which is why we have Center city for shopping, business, government, and the arts, the Sports Complex for sporting events, and even Airport/Cargo City, for air travel.

If the city wants to build the 76ers arena, I say why not? I don't control the city, I just so happen to have lived there, and still support the Philly sports teams, which is the only worthy thing I can support about Philadelphia at this point.

Originally Posted by Groundhog

And I believe the traffic issues you claim a Center City arena will cause will be relieved by public transit. I have not seen anything to state otherwise other than vague beliefs. While Pattison/the BSL is quasi-sufficient for the complex, the options at Market East are a vast improvement over that. The fact that it is a terminal is one of the issues, because people can only arrive from one direction. If the BSL can send 6 cars south to the stadiums, the MSL can send 6 cars east and 6 cars west simultaneously (6+6=12 and 12>6). Add the regional rail and trolleys too if you’d like, but that baseline of subway traffic alone tells you all you need. If you continue to struggle with the math, I can have my 7 year old explain it to you.

Pattison Ave station was specifically designed to handle the very large amount of passengers that want to utilize the BSL to and from the games. If SEPTA wants to extend the BSL further south to the Navy Yard and as far away as Chester, it's possible, but it never happened.

Also, 8th and 11th Sts have narrow platforms in comparison to Pattison Ave. Eighth St is it's own subway station, while 11th St is connected to 13th and the City Hall Complex. Both subway stations have a crosswalk connecting the eastbound and westbound platforms, but it's not a free interchange, unlike 161th St at Yankee Station, Shea Stadium, Addison for Wrigley and 35th-Sox for Chicago, and Kenmore at Fenway Park.

And if you're willing towards making improvements to 8th and 11th Its, that's going to cost another billion and it's not going to be Harris that will pay for that, but the taxpayers of Philadelphia and Pennsylvania, just to maybe widen the platforms, add more track, and other associated work to make those stations more accessible and more appealing to the prospective stations. I'm thinking that you haven't even considered that and thought 11th St was going to stay the same design and configuration.

Originally Posted by Groundhog

It isn’t and nobody is saying it will make it a “model of mass transit”, again, please stop with the strawman arguments.

SEPTA never was the "model of mass transit", the honor goes to the MTA in NY, Metro in DC, and to a certain extent, BART, out of the Bay Area. It's a glorified bus agency which has ran the rail (subway and commuter) divisions into the ground. Makes me wish the PRR, the Reading, and the Seashore Lines was still running to this day!

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Again, enough with the strawman arguments! NOBODY SAID THIS!!!!

The arena won't revitalize all of Philadelphia nor will it make it a even wealthier city than it already is. Ask Detroit, Cleveland, Baltimore, and St Louis how they're doing with their newly built arenas and whether it has revitalized their cities overall.

Originally Posted by Groundhog

WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, but this has already been covered. We’re talking about an urban downtown arena. If you think that the WFC is that, then I suggest you refamiliarize yourself with the city. Maybe in a sprawling sunbelt city you could squint and see the WFC as a connected part of downtown, but not in the Northeast my friend.

The Sports Complex has absolutely nothing to do with the Sunbelt, in fact, AT&T and the Ball Park at Arlington, TX is pretty sprawl, as is the DFW Metroplex. The Sports Complex was Philadelphia's answer to combining all the major sports teams in one confined area as opposed to spreading them in different parts of the city.

You're reaching for a lot of exaggerations, my friend!!! The Sports Complex, when it comes to other sports complexes and sports facilities, is arguable as urban due to the fact of combining different sports venues in one area of the city. It was never intended to mimic the Sunbelt, when every venue is spread out in different parts of the city. Fans are lucky to attend a baseball or football game in the daytime and if they wish, attend a basketball and hockey game in the evening, and vice versa, w/o having to travel to a different part of the city just to do so.

But according to you, the Sports Complex is very outdated and we need to shoehorn multiple sports venues inside Center City just so you can make it 10-30 minutes just so your family doesn't have to have more temper tantrums. I get it now, it's not about the rest of the city and the suburbanites but people who live in CC or who live close enough to CC who don't want to go through South Phila and deal with the hordes of people, car lots, warehouses, and refineries that occupy that part of the city.

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Your assumptions are all wrong. I very much care about the diversity of the city. Maybe you struggle with reading comprehension or just don’t care to fully digest what other people say, but I have stated MULTIPLE TIMES that I’m sad they’re leaving the WFC. I don’t want a Market East arena for “self-centered” easier commute. I want it because it is one of the better options after considering the FACTS and accepting that they will be leaving South Philly. One of the things that makes it a better location than many alternatives? Easier public transit access in EVERY direction. Yes, that includes West Philly. It also includes the Northeast (at least parts with MFL access), Northwest, and the suburbs due to regional rail connectivity. It does not greatly impact BSL riders either.

If what is said about DC Chinatown is true, then I don't want the arena in Chinatown, Midtown Village, Washington Square, or even close by Old City. The bolded quote seems very hypocritical of you that you claim to care, but there are people that are very concerned about not just the people, but what they'll lose in the effect if this were to happen.

I don't feel comfortable with having to force either an ethnic enclave not even a neighborhood to move just because the residents can't either afford the escalating rent nor the taxes. Philadelphia already has too many problems as it is with the school system, the homelessness, gentrification, drugs, and the violent crime.

An arena nearby may alleviate the immediate area with 24 hr security and a police presence, but it's not going to solve all of Philly's problems and with having two arenas in Philadelphia, which arena will people go to for concerts? It's a chicken and egg question, and I'm assuming that if you're a suburbanite from PA, NJ, or DE, which is a whole lot more than city folk, they'll travel by car to WFC, where there's easy parking.

It has more to do with were we live, not what we want Philadelphia to become or what we wish Philadelphia was. I'd love for Philly to be the go to city like NY, Boston, Miami, Chicago, and SF, but there's much more problems than just figuring out whether an new arena in CC should be the primary concern or building a new Greyhound terminal, in which the current one is sorely inadequate and the buses have absolutely no business being parked and idled along Market St whatsoever. I'll choose the latter since not having a decent Greyhound bus terminal is inconveniencing the city in a huge way, with a lot of late buses, no shelter, no waiting area, and definitely no bathrooms!!

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Your framing this as an argument between preservation of ethnic enclaves vs better public transit connections is wrong (hey, look, another wrong assumption!). I don’t believe the arena will impact Chinatown negatively. Nothing you or anyone else against it has said anything that makes me think it might. The myth that arenas lead to gentrification has been debunked and when you tried to bring up DC as an example, it was quickly shot down with actual facts and history. My believes will change when I see persuasive data that tell me otherwise. That hasn’t happened here.

You not believing is your right, but it also makes you seem very parochial at the same time. An arena may not necessarily gentrify, and if having sporting venues did gentrify or were the basis of gentrification like having a Starbucks in your neighborhood, then South Philly along Oregon Ave would be nothing more than art galleries, cafes, lofts, and Whole Foods.

I'm also not a fan of South Philly's gentrification south of Washington, but that's a different story, as I do miss the old Italian community that's gradually disappearing and being replaced by gentrifiers. I don't really mind Point Breeze and Grays Ferry being fixed up because that area has taken a beating, but the rest of South Philly should've been an ethnic threshold as opposed to the newer shops, which I don't really patronize. That's just me!

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Also, referring to the Gayborhood as “Midtown Village,” while stating that you’re worried about losing a minority community enclave at the expense of millionaires is a bit out of touch. Who do you think came up with that nomenclature? Do you think the longer term LGTBQ+ residents appreciate the forced rebranding? (fun fact – they don’t!). It is language used to try and make the area more desirable to outside investment. They type of investment you claim to be against.

Originally Posted by Groundhog

You believe that an arena will hurt Chinatown and “Midtown Village” (actually known as the Gayborhood). I disagree because logic and the fact that these arenas have never destroyed neighborhoods or led to gentrification.

Midtown Village has been the name that's been used for the area around Lombard, Juniper, Chestnut, and 11th Sts as far back as I remember the city. I used to patronize a diner called the Midtown II on 11th and Sansom before the owners closed and sold the property. Still pretty cool with the owners kids to this day.

I never really heard of it being called the Gayborhood by other people and if it is, then it's by people who are basically LGBT. Saying Midtown Village doesn't make me homophobic nor do I intend to be homophobic by using that term, as it was meant to identify a specific area and not meant to insult nor to inflict any harm.

And albeit Midtown Village (or Gayborhood) is the main gay area in Philly, there are also a lot of straight people that either live or patronize the businesses that occupy that area, myself included, that will also be affected by escalating rents and other associated costs if the CC arena were to be erected. I believe that you've gotten yourself into a bind.

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I’m not 100% sure, but with the amount of focus and pressure on him, as with the PR front they’re putting on, I am optimistic that it will happen. You are not 100% sure they won’t either. This is something that we shall see, but the studies being done will likely make recommendations that will lead to this.

I'm not sure whether Harris will follow up with an apartment tower like he proposed, neither. There have been a lot of projects that have been proposed, only for them to be downscaled like the Camden waterfront project, incomplete like Waterfront Square, or have just never come into fruition. I've learned that while living in Philly and won't be surprised that the apartment tower won't get built.

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I did, appreciate the reminder. I'm so spoiled living right next to the sports complex in WEST Philly.

Exactly, you live right next to Franklin Field and the Palestra, in University City, which means that you would be approximately 10-15 min away from the proposed arena. According to Google Maps (https://www.google.com/maps/search/c...l=en&entry=ttu), it takes 45 min from where you're probably at to the Sports Complex on a good day, w/o any stoppage or delays from SEPTA, but you said it should take 30 min from where you're at to CBP, which is highly ludicrous of you, considering that the world does revolve around you.

Not saying that you shouldn't care about your family, as we all care about ours, but that's how long it takes to get to CBP from UC if you're going to take SEPTA, not 30 minutes like you previously said posts ago. Get out of the clouds, already!

Originally Posted by Groundhog

It's a good thing none of Philly’s stadiums are as poorly connected to the community as the Meadowlands (although you said there were two ways to get there and immediately listed three, so that's nice). I’m sorry you had to deal with that, it sounds miserable. That is not a goal to strive for. Philly can (and does) do better.

One paragraph, you're talking about the Sunbelt, now, you're admitting that the Sports Complex is integrated with the city? WHAT IS IT! BTW, the Meadowlands is much harder to navigate by car, as I should know as a former rideshare driver.

Originally Posted by Groundhog

All that said, and we're mixing sports here, but you started that, so I'm just running with it. What if the Meadowlands was at MSG? Your trip would be over in 45min! Substantially less than 2 hours. Do you see the parallel?

True, but NYC doesn't have enough space nor does it have any vital infrastructure to support such a complex as the Meadowland, with a football stadium, an arena, a horse track, and I believe a mega shopping mall, if I'm not mistaken. The Meadowlands might as well be it's own separate city.

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Also, not everyone has the privilege of going to these events live, and even fewer have the privilege of wasting 2-4 hours commuting to games. You want to exclude people by putting up more barriers to access? The Meadowlands sounds like a great example of how to do that.

The Giants played in Yankee Stadium from 1956 to 1973, and before that, the Polo Grounds from the inaugural year, 1925 to 1955. The G-men played in the Yale Bowl in New Haven in 1973-74, and have even played at Shea Stadium in 1975 before moving to the swap in 1976.

The reason? I believe it had a lot to do with the declining economy of NY, as well as crime, perception of the city, and the city's fiscal state at the time which hastened their departure from NY to NJ. Plus, it made a lot of sense to build a football stadium on cheap land as opposed to building one in the city and trying to come up with a 80K capacity arena in the middle of Manhattan would've been a dream, but it also would've been impossible due to the city's conditions during the 1970's.

Originally Posted by Groundhog

The best sporting event I’ve ever been to was the 6 OT Syracuse-UCONN Big East Tournament game in MSG. I was working in the Bellevue and was offered tickets the day of. I left work at 5p, jumped on the R7 to Trenton, transferred, and made it to the game in 2 hours. I wouldn’t have been able to attend the greatest basketball game I’ll likely ever see if MSG wasn’t so well connected to public transit (just like the 6ers proposal is). So yes, I can see it taking 2 hours to get to a game in NYC from Philly, but to need to go to a game in your own city and have it take that long is ridiculous and exclusionary.

It's easier to get to MSG by train (subway and commuter) as opposed to driving. Also, even people who live in the city are going to have issues with mass transit, so it makes a lot of sense to plan ahead as opposed to thinking that mass transit will swiftly take you from your house to the arena in 30 min or less, and knowing NY, with a lot of delays and accidents, there's no perfect way to get to a destination. If you can't plan ahead, I can't feel sorry for you but your kids only. Once again, plan ahead before game time.

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I’d rather trust SEPTA than traffic on 76, 676, or 95.

I wouldn't trust SEPTA with transit projects, extensions, or even a bucket of horse crap!

Originally Posted by Groundhog

In the end it seems that we both like the idea of the 6ers staying in the sports complex, but I’ve accepted the financial reality that Harris, or any other owner, would not build a new arena next door to a competitor and would instead look to differentiate in some way (i.e. location). You are fighting this.

I accept the reality since Snider was unwilling to keep the team at Comcast Spectacor, and don't fault Harris for this, but the impending move fro the Sports Complex to Center City is unnecessarily. There's not even an alternate site other than CC which could've been proposed and this is what sours me about pro sports nowadays, it's all about who has the biggest pockets, not the best ideas.

A separate basketball arena isn't even the issue, it's the location, and it's one thing to build a basketball arena, but to compete with the WFC for concerts and other shows, isn't really a concern for me, as the main issue is building this basketball arena, not competing with WFC for concerts.

Originally Posted by Groundhog

You prioritize cars, don’t trust SEPTA, but see the BSL as fine and counterbalanced by multiple highway access points. I see greater connectively of public transit as a key benefit and something that will reduce the reliance on cars. I see commute time to a venue as important, you don’t.

I've wished that SEPTA was at the same level as the MTA in NY, the MBTA of Boston, the CTA/Metra in Chicago, Metro in DC, and BART of the Bay Area, but it's always been a letdown when it comes to commuter rail and the subway. We have a decent subway, but it could've been bigger.

And I never prioritized the automobile, I stated that suburbanites from PA, NJ, and DE who want to travel are going to have it easier traveling to the Sports Complex via I-76 and I-95 while Philadelphians will be more than likely to use the BSL to Pattison.

I'd love to see more people use subways or commuter rail, but unfortunately, that's not how much of America operates, and let's be realistic, SEPTA doesn't even extend all the way to Allentown, Bethlehem, Easton, Reading, Lancaster, or even West Chester, Oxford, Newtown, or all the way to the Jersey Shore, where there are a lot more Philly sports fans living than in the city of Philadelphia itself, which is a fact of life!

It's basically a crapshoot to think that suburbanites will either leave their cars at home or ditch them in favor of mass transit, and the regional rail system doesn't even cover the far flung regional cities such as Allentown, Reading, Lancaster, and West Chester, so how is SEPTA going to greatly improve by building the arena.

SEPTA has also recently cancelled an extension to KOP, which I'm not surprised. It would've been nice to extend the Route 100 to KOP, and the proposals looked neat, but as I predicted, SEPTA doesn't even want to extend a line to the most lucrative retail corridor of KOP, and if SEPTA can't extend to KOP, what makes you think they'll improve any type of service anywhere?

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I’m not sure we will see eye to eye on this, but at the end of the day the 6ers are going somewhere, I’m sorry you can’t see any silver linings to the breakup of the big 4 sports in South Philly. My main point in all this is that if they have to move out of the complex, Market East is one of the best possible outcomes. Hopefully they stick the landing right and build a world class arena and Harris and Co, do the right thing and pay for all the improvements needed along the way. I hope it rejuvenates Market Street, and allows Chinatown thrive.

I take it that since Harris is from DC, and I'm pretty sure that he knows about the Verizon Center and it's history, that I doubt that it will revitalize Philadelphia and make Chinatown thrive. He might as well either swap the 76ers with some other team (Wizards) since he wants a Chinatown arena that's also in the middle of an American downtown.

[summersm343]

Sixers and Comcast Spectacor are battling publicly and privately over the team’s proposed downtown arena

Read/view more here:
https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate...-20230929.html

[Groundhog]

This is going in circles and dealing with your slippery slope logic, weird standards to strive for, and incorrect assumptions exhausting. Snider is irrelevant. We’re talking about the future home of the 6ers, not the past.

I’ve explained the public transit benefits that aren’t just for me but for the entire city. However it looks like you’re starting to come around a little.

Originally Posted by wanderer34

The arena won't revitalize all of Philadelphia nor will it make it a even wealthier city than it already is. Ask Detroit, Cleveland, Baltimore, and St Louis how they're doing with their newly built arenas and whether it has revitalized their cities overall.

Originally Posted by wanderer34

An arena may not necessarily gentrify, and if having sporting venues did gentrify or were the basis of gentrification like having a Starbucks in your neighborhood, then South Philly along Oregon Ave would be nothing more than art galleries, cafes, lofts, and Whole Foods

Glad we agree that this arena won’t really impact Chinatown or other communities!

Originally Posted by wanderer34

Philadelphia already has too many problems as it is with the school system, the homelessness, gentrification, drugs, and the violent crime.

An arena nearby may alleviate the immediate area with 24 hr security and a police presence, but it's not going to solve all of Philly's problems

…so you think that it could help solve one of the significant problems (crime) in this part of the city? Amazing! I agree, I think this could be a positive benefit as well.

Originally Posted by wanderer34

It's easier to get to MSG by train (subway and commuter) as opposed to driving.

And since that's the model type of arena we're building how will that impact traffic patterns to get to the 6ers arena? Again, you’re so close to getting it, SO CLOSE!

Originally Posted by wanderer34

I'm assuming that if you're a suburbanite from PA, NJ, or DE, which is a whole lot more than city folk, they'll travel by car to WFC, where there's easy parking.

Ignoring the inelasticity of most events, this is the differentiation I was referring to in having different locations. The WFC will be great for people like you, and the new 6ers arena will be for city concerts then.

Originally Posted by wanderer34

Midtown Village has been the name that's been used for the area around Lombard, Juniper, Chestnut, and 11th Sts as far back as I remember the city. I used to patronize a diner called the Midtown II on 11th and Sansom before the owners closed and sold the property. Still pretty cool with the owners kids to this day.

Ok, I'm trying to avoid getting off topic, but couldn’t resist this one. Did you really think that the name Midtown Village came from a small dinner that called Midtown Dinner TWO!? You clearly didn’t click my last link on this topic and I'm not sure how you missed that the neighborhood has been the Gayborhood for a long, long time. Also the original Midtown Dinner (or Midtown Dinner ONE) was in Rittenhouse Square. It’s not related to the Midtown Village name. I was pointing out that if you’re worried about community displacement, using term that was designed to displace a community is ignorant and hypocritical at best. I never called you homophobic, as you haven’t said anything that would make me think that….now your issues with South Philly Italians being displaced but being ok with the redevelopment of Point Breeze and Grays Ferry…that one doesn’t look to great.

Originally Posted by wanderer34

Finally, even though I've avowed never the return to the city for living purposes

Originally Posted by wanderer34

If the city wants to build the 76ers arena, I say why not? I don't control the city, I just so happen to have lived there, and still support the Philly sports teams, which is the only worthy thing I can support about Philadelphia at this point.

Ok, this is everything I really needed to know. You don’t support Philadelphia, just the sports teams. I thought belief in arena spurred gentrification (you’ve seemed to come around on this), traffic concerns (I feel you’re so close to getting this with the MSG comp), and a preference for cars/long commutes vs public transit and efficient use of time (…we’re still miles apart here) were our fault lines on this, however I live in the city, care about the city, and avow never to leave the city “for living purposes”. This seems to be the biggest difference in our POVs. I hope the pictures of the new arena you see when watching games from home on TV don’t disturb you too much. I’ll continue to enjoy the growth of amenities of living in one of the best, most diverse large cities in the US, and one, with all it’s warts, I wouldn’t ever trade for a cul-de-sac or other metropolitan area.

[wanderer34]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

This is going in circles and dealing with your slippery slope logic, weird standards to strive for, and incorrect assumptions exhausting. Snider is irrelevant. We’re talking about the future home of the 6ers, not the past.

I’ve explained the public transit benefits that aren’t just for me but for the entire city. However it looks like you’re starting to come around a little.

SEPTA doesn't have the best mass transit options, but one of the worst, only because what was once one of the best rail infrastructures in the country is currently a shell of the great Pennsylvania, Reading, and Seashore lines that used to travel to and from Philadelphia.

Can you assure that if the arena is built, then we'll see service restored, once again, to the Lehigh Valley, Dutch Country, and the Jersey Shore? There's no West Chester service, and SEPTA couldn't make a connection to KOP mall, the most lucrative retail center in the Delaware Valley.

Also, Snider selling the Sixers is the main reason why we're in this predicament, regardless of how Snider felt about the 76ers. Just hoping the Sixers don't move if Harris doesn't get his downtown arena.

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Glad we agree that this arena won’t really impact Chinatown or other communities!

I said this because cities like Detroit, Cleveland, Baltimore, New Orleans, and St Louis have built sporting venues in the past 25+ years, only to see their populations decline year after year, and crime in those cities have gotten worse depending on who you talk to and where you're at.

The main reason for building them has little to do with revitalization and more to do with retaining the sports teams and providing them with better facilities such as skyboxes, upscale dining inside the arenas, and exclusive suites. And even as they were built, it hasn't made those cities any richer.

I support cities like those to have sports teams for representation, but even so, it's ridiculous to think that having a sports team, let alone one in downtown will revitalize a city and make the city richer and successful than what it already is. That's the job of the city's economic and financial policies, not a sports team, to revitalize an economy!!!

Originally Posted by Groundhog

…so you think that it could help solve one of the significant problems (crime) in this part of the city? Amazing! I agree, I think this could be a positive benefit as well.

That's only once part of CC, and not the whole thing, let alone all of Philadelphia! As per my last paragraphs, it's not going to lift the fortunes of Philadelphians. If that were the case, them just about every city with a sports team would be wealthy. The more sports teams, the wealthier a city would be!

An arena at 10th and Market will not just stop crime overall. Speaking of Chinatown, you're talking about one of the oldest Chinatowns in the nation. Not the biggest, but one of the oldest.

Originally Posted by Groundhog

And since that's the model type of arena we're building how will that impact traffic patterns to get to the 6ers arena? Again, you’re so close to getting it, SO CLOSE!

MSG sits on the some of the most valuable piece of real estate in the country, on the most busiest rail hub in the country, with Amtrak, LIRR, Metro-North, and NJ Transit as the main rail services serving Penn Station serving Long Island, Connecticut, Upstate NY, and most parts of New Jersey, as well as close to the busiest bus hub in the world.

This proposed arena would sit atop a regional rail system that was once the envy of the country, only to be truncated thanks to SEPTA, as well as the state and federal government's misguided policies on rail transit. There's no Amtrak or NJ Transit service, and the Greyhound bus station that used to be there is closed and on an inefficient location.

I don't see how both MSG and the new arena are parallels other than they're both in their cities downtowns and both arenas sit atop of rail lines, with NY having the best rail infrastructure in the country, and Philly having the worst. You can't make this up!!!

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Ignoring the inelasticity of most events, this is the differentiation I was referring to in having different locations. The WFC will be great for people like you, and the new 6ers arena will be for city concerts then.

The locations have very little to do with me and more the fact that the Sports Complex was designed due to the vast space it has (and still has), as opposed to erecting an arena in the middle of the city.

Having an arena in the middle in the city won't ensure that it will attract more concerts than WFC, especially with all the looting and crime that has been going on in Center these past years. If anything, a lot of Philadelphians, Philly sports fans, and concert goers may feel that having games and concerts in the Sports Complex, as opposed to Center City will be a lot safer than trying to go to Center City nowadays. Go figure!

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Ok, I'm trying to avoid getting off topic, but couldn’t resist this one. Did you really think that the name Midtown Village came from a small dinner that called Midtown Dinner TWO!? You clearly didn’t click my last link on this topic and I'm not sure how you missed that the neighborhood has been the Gayborhood for a long, long time. Also the original Midtown Dinner (or Midtown Dinner ONE) was in Rittenhouse Square. It’s not related to the Midtown Village name.

The reason behind the name Midtown Village has nothing to do with the Midtown diners, and a lot to do with the fact that Center City is Philadelphia's Midtown, the way that South Philly is Philly's Downtown and North Philly is Philly's Uptown (hence the legendary Uptown Theater). Also, it may seem that the name Midtown Village may be imitating Greenwich Village in NY, but either way, I guess Midtown Village is tying historically with the old directional designations as opposed to trying to cover up a gay community that exists.

Other names exist such as Washington Sq West and 13th Street if you want to use a street name to refer to the gay community, but it hasn't been fashionable to refer to a neighborhood with the word gay and I'm sure you understand that, even though a lot of people knew that these were gay enclaves, just using the word gay was just never in style (until 2012 and Obama vouching for gay marriage, I guess). Either way, you should know better the reason why people just haven't used the word "gay" to name certain neighborhoods, and in the case of Midtown Village, it's more the fact of trying to tie with Center City's old designation of Midtown and less the fact of trying to hide the gay community, in which many Philadelphians know that's the gay enclave regardless of the name.

Originally Posted by Groundhog

I was pointing out that if you’re worried about community displacement, using term that was designed to displace a community is ignorant and hypocritical at best. I never called you homophobic, as you haven’t said anything that would make me think that….now your issues with South Philly Italians being displaced but being ok with the redevelopment of Point Breeze and Grays Ferry…that one doesn’t look to great.

First of all, much of the land in Point Breeze and Grays Ferry was either abandoned buildings or empty lots. Something had to be either redeveloped and restored, or built on, and there was a lot of land over there. As for the black community, they deserve a break after living there for decades and enduring some of the harshest conditions that a person has to face such as redlining, disinvestment, deindustrialization, drugs, and violent crime. They have a right to benefit from the success and turnaround of Point Breeze and Grays Ferry, not pushed aside like this arena may do to the local Chinese community.

I believed that Washington Ave was the demarcation between the more wealthy CC and the "other Philadelphia", but as gentrifiers have made their move south of Washington Ave, the Vietnamese community have lost one of their supermarkets, the black community are still trying to hold on to Point Breeze and Grays Ferry, and the Italian part of South Philly is looking less Italian by the year.

If you ask me, I have more of an accord with the black, Vietnamese, and Italian older guard than the newer gentrifiers that haven't lived in Philadelphia since the past decade and I miss the Italian feel that East Passyunk Ave had as opposed to the boutiques, galleries, and tapas bars that a lot of the gentrifiers go to. Some are nice, but the fact that all those shops have overtaken East Passyunk Ave has me missing the old Philadelphia in a lot of ways.

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Ok, this is everything I really needed to know. You don’t support Philadelphia, just the sports teams. I thought belief in arena spurred gentrification (you’ve seemed to come around on this), traffic concerns (I feel you’re so close to getting this with the MSG comp), and a preference for cars/long commutes vs public transit and efficient use of time (…we’re still miles apart here) were our fault lines on this, however I live in the city, care about the city, and avow never to leave the city “for living purposes”. This seems to be the biggest difference in our POVs. I hope the pictures of the new arena you see when watching games from home on TV don’t disturb you too much. I’ll continue to enjoy the growth of amenities of living in one of the best, most diverse large cities in the US, and one, with all it’s warts, I wouldn’t ever trade for a cul-de-sac or other metropolitan area.

The reason why I believe your beliefs about the arena and my beliefs about the arena differ may not be because you support mass transit and I don't! In fact, I've been one of the biggest proponents of mass transit on SSP, but the reality is that SEPTA hasn't been a decent transit agency for G-D knows how long!

Also, I'm the product of an immigrant family that was firstborn in this country and was born and raised in a working class to middle class neighborhood in Brooklyn. I didn't 't grow up with a silver spoon in my mouth, and if I did, I may not have moved out of Philadelphia just to live a comfortable (not luxurious) life in the Caribbean. I have some college experience and have served in the Armed Forces for a short while.

You seem to have grown up in an upper middle class (not rich or wealthy) upbringing, and since you live close to Center City, I'm assuming that you live in a comfortable house close to Penn, while a majority of the working class do not have the privileges of living close to such amenities such as Center City, and only a special few have the privilege of living next to a bunch of sporting venues in the Sports Complex.

The majority, no matter where you go, doesn't have the privileges of living next to certain amenities and that's the fact of life everybody has to face. I'm also assuming that you have a comfortable salary, enough for you and your family to live comfortable in University City while the majority of Philadelphians have to live w/ $32,311 annually (https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fa...ania/PST045222).

I made a little more than $32K annually and have made much more during my taxi driving days, and I went through a lot of hell just trying to live comfortable so I can understand how the average Philadelphian makes out with just $32K annually.

The new arena has to utilize one expressway (I-676), and the Sports Complex utilizes two (I-76 & I-95). Only time the Sports Complex has major traffic is before, during, and after games. Outside of that, there's little traffic. I-676 every weekday during AM & PM rush hour, and even on certain weekends, can be a major parking lot.

The Sports Complex has those two expressways as well as Pattison Ave on the BSL while the new arena, if built, will have to rely on the MFL, the Regional Rail, and I-676. Assuming that most spectators will continue to use their cars just to get to and from the game, and there are more suburbanites than city dwellers (a fact not a myth), maybe a few, but if people don't change their commuting habits, and SEPTA can't expand their subway and commuter rail systems, then people will continue to commute how the average American commutes, and that's by car.

Finally, I've stopped paying attention to the skyscrapers, the skyline, the museums, the art galleries, the orchestras, the ballet companies, the luxury stores, and the condos because all those things don't help the average Philadelphian plus arguing about the next skyscraper won't help the average Phiadelphian get out of poverty. Besides, I'm not an architectural or design expert, but jut another poster who though it might be important to partake my opinions.

And as somebody who's lived in working class neighborhoods outside of Center City, getting a downtown arena may make some sports fans giddy because they'll be a little closer to the action, but the majority of Philadelphians won't benefit, only a few. Since billionaires are the ones with billions upon billions of dollars, my reason for not giving a damn has very little to do with apathy, but as long as billionaires are dictating what gets built and where, it only repeats the unfortunate mantra that GREED IS GOOD, no matter who gets hurt by it. Enjoy the arena, that's if it gets built!

[Groundhog]

Originally Posted by wanderer34

it's ridiculous to think that having a sports team, let alone one in downtown will revitalize a city

Originally Posted by wanderer34

An arena at 10th and Market will not just stop crime overall.

You agree then that arenas don’t cause gentrification or hurt Chinatown and may help with vigilance in the immediate vicinity of the arena. Great, however, you keep exaggerating other people’s points – nobody ever said it would stop ALL crime. Nothing, let alone a building, will fix a problem in totality. It's about positive steps that will help.

Originally Posted by wanderer34

I don't see how both MSG and the new arena are parallels other than they're both in their cities downtowns and both arenas sit atop of rail lines

There it is, yes, you got it, well done!

Originally Posted by wanderer34

Enjoy the arena, that's if it gets built!

Thank you, I certainly will as will a large swath of the city and the region (assuming it gets built, and built in line with everything that the proposal team has promised so far).

[TempleGuy1000]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

Thank you, I certainly will as will a large swath of the city and the region (assuming it gets built, and built in line with everything that the proposal team has promised so far).

I certainly will spend more time and money in Chinatown if the arena gets built. There's very few reasons for me to ever get off at Jefferson station even though the train goes right there from Chestnut Hill. Man, Reading Terminal before a game? How awesome would that be. Loserdelphians are trying their best to sink it for us all.

You can go through every point with the "anti"-build crowd, and they still will just shrug it off and repeat the same things. Make no mistake, most opposition comes from extremely privileged and entitled places.

[summersm343]

Groups in South Philly and Center City oppose a downtown Sixers arena

Read/view more here:
https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate...-20231024.html

[summersm343]

What’s next for the Sixers proposed arena? Experts will weigh in on whether a new venue makes sense

Read/view more here:
https://www.inquirer.com/real-estate...-20231027.html

[summersm343]

Business leaders put forth suggestions to maintain Chinatown's intimate feel amid 76ers arena discussions

Article behind paywall here:
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...velopment.html

[summersm343]

First glimpse into Sixers’ arena studies shows a Chinatown grappling with higher rents and taxes

Read/view more here:
https://www.inquirer.com/news/philad...-20231111.html

[summersm343]

Asian American Chamber seeks Sixers partnership on Center City arena proposal

Article behind paywall here:
https://www.bizjournals.com/philadel...sed-arena.html

[Mr Saturn64]

I doubt I'm the first person to say this, but why not put it on the Disney Hole? It's a giant arena-sized empty lot that has plenty of connectivity and is still part of the East Market area they're trying to revitalize?

[Urbanthusiat]

Originally Posted by Mr Saturn64

I doubt I'm the first person to say this, but why not put it on the Disney Hole? It's a giant arena-sized empty lot that has plenty of connectivity and is still part of the East Market area they're trying to revitalize?

Could be as simple as Goldenberg not wanting to play ball (pun intended). Not to mention there is a huge 14-story office building on the site. I'm sure the Sixers asked about it, but for whatever reason a deal wasn't there, or PREIT is offering a better deal. A lot of interests have to align to make these kinds of things happen. I do think it would also be great location if they could have figured it out, but I think I'd prefer to see more mixed-use residential development on the Disney Hole and the arena as proposed - I think the direct connection to Jefferson is really valuable to the project.

[mcgrath618]

It's not big enough of a plot unless you demolish the historic building on the SW corner of the lot. Not happening.

[liat91]

600 ft would be nice. Perfect compromise.

[Redddog]

Originally Posted by mcgrath618

It's not big enough of a plot unless you demolish the historic building on the SW corner of the lot. Not happening.

Plus... Goldberg is the biggest d-bag in the state of PA.

[Urbanthusiat]

First CDR Submission: https://www.phila.gov/media/20231204...er-18-2023.pdf

Note this is the "Master Plan" and not the final finished project. This is more about the general layout and massing than the materials and specific design.

Personally, I like this more than I thought I would. I think it's brilliant how they are able to tie together all of these uses on this site and have active frontage along most of the building. Great design.

[TempleGuy1000]

Looking at all the photos and thinking about how much of an improvement it is over the current configuration, it's hard not to be excited by it.