High-Speed Intercity Passenger Rail Program (USA)

[202_Cyclist]

The embarrassing thing is that it isn't just wealthy, developed countries like France, Spain, and Japan that have high speed rail. China already has high speed rail and developing countries like Brazil and Turkey are planning to build high speed rail. We'll just continue to spend $300B+ every year on imported oil.

[aquablue]

As someone here said, the sanctimonious Right thinks that there is a conspiracy to make us like those commie countries (france, spain, china, germany, brazil), therefore they will do anything possible to reject anything associated with them. Rail is #1, soccer #2, dense cities #3, #4 is no guns. Don't forget about Freedom Fries. They won't be happy until the entire USA looks like 1970's LA or perhaps Dodge City in the 1900's. I am pretty sure their ideal model for the USA's apperance is Jeddah, SA where gas runs like water, but without the innovative architecture, transit plans, or strict islamic law. Replace islamic law with Strict Christian fundamentalist law. Replace innovative buildings and skyscrapers with banal strip malls and Mickie D architecture. Of course, they'd probably prefer if we all rode horses toting rifles with a church on every corner and everyone in bed by 10.

[202_Cyclist]

Rail is #1, soccer #2, dense cities #3.

You could also add the following: 4) good beer, 5) good film, 6) bicycling to this list.

[lawfin]

Originally Posted by aquablue

As someone here said, the sanctimonious Right thinks that there is a conspiracy to make us like those commie countries (france, spain, china, germany, brazil), therefore they will do anything possible to reject anything associated with them. Rail is #1, soccer #2, dense cities #3. Don't forget about Freedom Fries. They won't be happy until the entire USA looks like 1970's LA or perhaps Dodge City in the 1900's. I am pretty sure their ideal model for the USA's apperance is Jeddah, SA where gas runs like water, but without the innovative architecture, transit plans, or strict islamic law. Replace islamic law with Strict Christian fundamentalist law. Replace innovative buildings and skyscrapers with banal strip malls and Mickie D architecture. Of course, they'd probably prefer if we all rode horses toting rifles with a church on every corner and everyone in bed by 10.

No. Riding a horse as a transportation modality would impede on the Right's God given 11th commandment...Thou shall burn gas and pollute as if the end times were nigh!

[202_Cyclist]

No. Riding a horse as a transportation modality would impede on the Right's God given 11th commandment...Thou shall burn gas and pollute as if the end times were nigh!

\

There's a reason it is the GO(B)P/RepuB(P)lican party.

[Nowhereman1280]

I'm sick of the government (primarily Republicans, but the Dems don't even push back on half the issues less they appear not to worship the mighty car god) subsidizing the most wasteful practices in society. Not only are they completely car horny, they just can't seem to get away from an obsession with the internal combustion engine. Even after we run out of oil they want us to grind up our food and burn it in our cars.

I just read that Corn prices surpassed Wheat prices for the first time in history today. That means that we will likely see wheat (which is used almost exclusively for human consumption) begin to be used as feed for animals since corn is now more pricey. Its the ridiculous subsidization of corn ethanol that has caused this and now we will be feeding food that would otherwise be fit for human consumption to animals.

Not that anything can directly be done about it, but the United States will be feeding its livestock a cereal grain that starving people in other parts of the world would literally kill to have. Something about that is just fundamentally messed up to me.

[lawfin]

Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280

I'm sick of the government (primarily Republicans, but the Dems don't even push back on half the issues less they appear not to worship the mighty car god) subsidizing the most wasteful practices in society. Not only are they completely car horny, they just can't seem to get away from an obsession with the internal combustion engine. Even after we run out of oil they want us to grind up our food and burn it in our cars.

I just read that Corn prices surpassed Wheat prices for the first time in history today. That means that we will likely see wheat (which is used almost exclusively for human consumption) begin to be used as feed for animals since corn is now more pricey. Its the ridiculous subsidization of corn ethanol that has caused this and now we will be feeding food that would otherwise be fit for human consumption to animals.

Not that anything can directly be done about it, but the United States will be feeding its livestock a cereal grain that starving people in other parts of the world would literally kill to have. Something about that is just fundamentally messed up to me.

One thing that could be done is get rid of the restrictions on Brazil's sugar cane ethanol....I am not a proponent of ethanol; but the protection of Big Ag in this country is twisted and unnecessary.

[Beta_Magellan]

Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280

I just read that Corn prices surpassed Wheat prices for the first time in history today. That means that we will likely see wheat (which is used almost exclusively for human consumption) begin to be used as feed for animals since corn is now more pricey. Its the ridiculous subsidization of corn ethanol that has caused this and now we will be feeding food that would otherwise be fit for human consumption to animals.

Not that anything can directly be done about it, but the United States will be feeding its livestock a cereal grain that starving people in other parts of the world would literally kill to have. Something about that is just fundamentally messed up to me.

Totally agreed, and since both parties rely on rural votes to keep senate seats ethanol and other subsidies for farmers are particularly hard to dislodge. I remember reading. After Ezra Klein wrote a blog post about how we distribute resources from high-density to low-density areas, Sec. of Ag. Tom Vilsack called up Klein and acted really petulantly.

If there's one place where I'd unabashedly support an honestly conservative approach it's with fuels--eliminate subsidies for all of them and see how well they can compete against one another. People like Ed Glaeser and a few folks at Cato have recommended it, but I doubt they'll have any sway--ultimately, patronage is more important to the current crop of Republicans so we'll likely continue to see subsidies flow to both oil companies and biofuels.

[afiggatt]

Originally Posted by 202_Cyclist

The embarrassing thing is that it isn't just wealthy, developed countries like France, Spain, and Japan that have high speed rail. China already has high speed rail and developing countries like Brazil and Turkey are planning to build high speed rail. We'll just continue to spend $300B+ every year on imported oil.

Turkey HAS high speed rail. Checking wikipedia, the first section of about 200 km, started service in 2009. Turkey is building HSR, with plans for a ~1500 km HSR system. I think Brazil is supposed to make a contract decision and award for the first leg of their HSR system soon. Whether that has any effect on the political discourse here in the US, probably not. You know, Brazil, bunch of socialists down there in South America.

Meanwhile, it is becoming clear that if we are not at peak oil, the world's production of conventional oil is in a plateau range and has been there since 2005-2006. The new mostly small fields coming on-line are only making up for the decline of the mature oil fields. Outright decline in total world oil production is not far off. While we do have good quantities of shale natural gas, the transportation sector is extremely dependent on oil.

In 5-10 years, the economics for short haul flights of 500 miles or less unless they are between high passenger volume airports on each end are likely to get clobbered. Many of the smaller cities and regions serve by regional airports could be left in the lurch without good travel access. Intercity rail, even if it not true HSR, with 79 to 90 mph speeds and improvements to the rail infrastructure and a decent transit alternative could be a lifeline for the economy of those communities. Meanwhile, many of them have Republican representatives, Governors, Senators, politicians who are going out of their way to slash spending for passenger rail in favor of cars, business as usual, and Oil dependency over all else.

If we take the long view on what is currently happening in Congress, the next 10-15 years are going to be interesting times. Buckle up, it is going to be a bumpy ride.

[Nowhereman1280]

Originally Posted by lawfin

One thing that could be done is get rid of the restrictions on Brazil's sugar cane ethanol....I am not a proponent of ethanol; but the protection of Big Ag in this country is twisted and unnecessary.

Oh yeah, the farm subsidies in this country are nauseating. And another issue this brings up; if we'd just lift the goddamn embargo on Cuba we'd have access to all of the sugar cane our obese, grubby, hands can covert to ethanol as well as a healthier source of sweetener than, drum roll, corn-based high fructose syrups...

The vast majority of problems in this country are either directly caused by or contributed to by government farm and automobile subsidies. Can you imagine how not fat Americans would be if we didn't have interstates de-densifying our urban cores and high fructose corn syrup sapping our health?

Originally Posted by Beta_Magellan

Totally agreed, and since both parties rely on rural votes to keep senate seats ethanol and other subsidies for farmers are particularly hard to dislodge. I remember reading. After Ezra Klein wrote a blog post about how we distribute resources from high-density to low-density areas, Sec. of Ag. Tom Vilsack called up Klein and acted really petulantly.

Agreed, the root cause of these problems is really disproportionate political power handed out to relatively unpopulated portions of the country. Of course someone who lives 5 miles from the nearest neighbor is going to advocate recklessly small amounts of government in cities and reckless high amounts of government subsidies in rural areas. The structure of the US Senate is, unfortunately, slowly killing our country.

If there's one place where I'd unabashedly support an honestly conservative approach it's with fuels--eliminate subsidies for all of them and see how well they can compete against one another. People like Ed Glaeser and a few folks at Cato have recommended it, but I doubt they'll have any sway--ultimately, patronage is more important to the current crop of Republicans so we'll likely continue to see subsidies flow to both oil companies and biofuels.

I hate using the term "conservative" because it's completely inconsistent and essentially meaningless outside of CNN and network news channels. The approach I think you are advocating is the "classically liberal" approach of removing government interference in the pricing mechanisms of the market. That is what CATO and others are advocating. I know Lawfin and I have clashed on libertarianism a lot before, but I think we are seeing a slow and healthy split among so called conservatives with the true libertarians jumping ship and actually getting airtime for their ideas. I just heard a spokesperson for CATO on NPR the other night lampooning Paul Ryan's half-assed attempt at a budget proposal the other night for continuing farm subsidies and increasing defense spending while cutting everything else. I hope people start listening because neither side seems willing to fix these problems, they are only willing to help out those who contribute to their campaigns...

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by aquablue

^^funny, but that would never happen Lay off the smokes.

Oh, and it will be fantastic when places like Brazil, Argentina, and India have proper HSR far sooner than us.

An Educated Region vs. the Rest of the sheep people Nation.....

[Beta_Magellan]

Originally Posted by Nowhereman1280

I hate using the term "conservative" because it's completely inconsistent and essentially meaningless outside of CNN and network news channels. The approach I think you are advocating is the "classically liberal" approach of removing government interference in the pricing mechanisms of the market. That is what CATO and others are advocating. I know Lawfin and I have clashed on libertarianism a lot before, but I think we are seeing a slow and healthy split among so called conservatives with the true libertarians jumping ship and actually getting airtime for their ideas. I just heard a spokesperson for CATO on NPR the other night lampooning Paul Ryan's half-assed attempt at a budget proposal the other night for continuing farm subsidies and increasing defense spending while cutting everything else. I hope people start listening because neither side seems willing to fix these problems, they are only willing to help out those who contribute to their campaigns...

As a U. of C. grad I'm quite familiar "classical liberalism" and have gained a lot of respect for it (a couple of years ago I would have counted myself a liberaltarian), even if my own strand of liberalism has reverted to pretty much your stereotypical Massachussets-Greek-liberal-technocrat's.

However, I'll defend my use of "conservative" here mainly because, on a large scale, it's pretty difficult to sort out the fiscal and social aspects of conservatism. While Thomas Frank's What's the Matter with Kansas argued that lower-income individuals in Republican areas like Kansas vote Republican due to culture war issues despite the fact that Democratic economic policies would be better for them, political scientists have found that in fact voters in Kansas are both culturally and economically conservative, and indeed a lot of the recent debate over Ryan's plan has been waged on moral grounds. For a number of Americans, there's no distinction between their social positions--rather, they work together. This even seeps into organized libertarianism: the Libertarian Party's last presidential candidate, Bob Barr, was anti-choice. I think that culturally-liberal, classically-liberal is a fairly elite attitude (just to be clear: I'm not using "elite" as an insult, and it's probably how I'd describe my own political position too).

Of course, with farm subsidies things get complicated because it directly benefits people in the plains states, leading to a conflict of interest; furthermore, they've been around so round that they're considered normal, not a big government intervention in the local economy. I think you see the same when DC establishment libertarians and conservatives support improvements in the NEC--it contradicts their philosophy, but it's oh-so-convenient and there's been rail in the NEC for their whole lifetimes.

Anyway, with the passing of big-ticket HSR funding I think this should become our designated political science and philosophy thread.

[afiggatt]

Originally Posted by Beta_Magellan

Anyway, with the passing of big-ticket HSR funding I think this should become our designated political science and philosophy thread.

Well, there will be $2 billion - instead of $2.43 billion - of returned Florida HSR funds to re-allocate. After that, the next several years may be spent waiting to see if CA HSR can attract enough private investment combined with state money to keep moving forward and whether DesertXpress is a real project or a mirage. In that time, while Amtrak is trying to keep the budget cutters in the House from completely slashing it's annual capital and operating funding, Amtrak will be getting record breaking ridership on ever more crowded trains without the prospects of being able to get the capital needed to buy new rolling stock.

I could post the list I put together of all the applications I could find for the Florida HSR funds. Figuring out how to best split $2 billion with uncertain prospects for future funding is going to be a challenge for the FRA.

[JDRCRASH]

Come on guys. Seriously, are you really surprised? What did I tell you..... House Republicans aren't going to compromise, and Obama is a weenie.

Well, might as well and watch while Japan and Europe race into the future ahead of us. Along with China. And India. And South America. And Australia............. and yes, even Africa.

[aquablue]

Obama isn't the problem, it is the house & maybe senate too.

What can Obama do? Do you want him to start preaching about HSR? He has 3 wars to fight and more important things to deal with. Obama is afraid of becoming a liberal for 2012.

If the country overall hates rail and thinks its a waste, so be it, it won't be getting any decent rail until opinion changes. Majority rules, sadly. Country is too divided in philosophy these days, pretty sad.

[JDRCRASH]

Originally Posted by aquablue

Obama isn't the problem, it is the house & maybe senate too.

What can Obama do? Do you want him to start preaching about HSR? He has 3 wars to fight and more important things to deal with. Obama is afraid of becoming a liberal for 2012.

If the country overall hates rail and thinks its a waste, so be it, it won't be getting any decent rail until opinion changes. Majority rules, sadly.

But that's just it. I don't think the majority of the country "hates" rail.

[aquablue]

not hate really, but considers it a waste of money and useless for their lives with wars going on, economic problems, etc.

[Beta_Magellan]

Originally Posted by afiggatt

I could post the list I put together of all the applications I could find for the Florida HSR funds. Figuring out how to best split $2 billion with uncertain prospects for future funding is going to be a challenge for the FRA.

Yes please!

As I see it now, there are basically three scenarios:

1. All NEC (Mica’s preference)

2. Primarily NEC and CAHSR (compromise between Mica, who prefers the NEC and has voiced support for true HSR, and the administration, which wants HSR spread around the country and would obviously like California as a marquee project)

3. Spread around, with some going to the NEC, some going to CAHSR, and some going to other programs around the country, keeping everyone disappointed but also keeping everyone wanting more (helping to build pressure for more money at the state level). I’d guess this would be the best choice politically, though it carries the risk of backfiring by spreading HSR money so thin that its benefits become imperceptible to the general public.

[afiggatt]

Here is a summary list of the applications for the returned Florida funds that I have been able to find descriptions for. The available funds were a total of $2.43 billion split into $1.63 billion of stimulus funds and $800 million in FY2010 funds which require a minimum of a 20% state or local match. But it appears that $400 million of the FY10 funds will be rescinded and go away, leaving a total of $2.03 billion to reallocate.

24 states, DC, and Amtrak submitted applications. Of the projects, I would give priority to the NEC Portal Bridge north replacement project and some sizable funding to the CA HSR.

Amtrak: $1.3 billion for five NEC projects:
- $570 million for the Portal Bridge North replacement for Amtrak, NJ kicking in up to $150 million for $720 million total.
- $188 million for PE and EIS for Gateway project for 2 new tunnels under Hudson River with related infrastructure improvements.
- $50 million for PE and EIS for Penn Station south facility
- $450 million for upgrades between Philly and NYP for "Power, Signal, and Catenary and Track Improvements" for speed increases to 160 mph.
- $15 million for PE and EIS for Pelham Bay Bridge replacement and evaluate track upgrades for a 5 mile stretch south of the bride for higher speeds.

California: $3.7 billion for HSR, $382 million for the Surfliner, San Joaquin, Capital Corridor.
- $1.44 billion with 20% state match for completing the backbone of Merced to Bakersfield.
- $960 million with 20% state match for construction north from Merced toward the Bay Area.
- $1.3 billion with 20% state match for construction south from Bakersfield to the Tehachapi Mountains.
- Caltrans: $382 million for more than 12 improvement projects for its Pacific Surfliner, San Joaquin and Capitol Corridor passenger rail lines.

CT: $227 million for New Haven to Springfield corridor with $97 million state match.

District of Columbia: A package of access and capacity improvements to Union Station focused on improved access from Metrorail, an improved western entrance and a new north entrance to Union Station.

Georgia: $22.5 million for a $38 million dollar project to build a new station in Atlanta.

Illinois: $186.4 million funding with matching funds for a total of $248.5 million for Chicago to St. Louis corridor projects; $1 million for planning a station in East St. Louis.

Illinois, Michigan, Missouri, Wisconsin: $806 million in a joint inter-state application for rolling stock for all the Chicago hub corridor services and the River Runner; to buy 100 bi-levels and 31 locomotives, includes a 20% reserve. States are not offering to provide matching funds.

Kansas: ?

Maine: $59.1 million total: $38.3 million for improvements to the Pan Am Railways tracks between Portland and Plaistow, NH to add double tracks, sidings curve modifications to reduce trip times by 10 minutes; $20.8 million to add double tracks and replace rail for the MBTA owned tracks in MA with $5.2 million in state matching funds.

Maryland: $415 million total: $299 million for BWI Airport station & platform rebuild and 9 miles of 4th track, MD will provide $41 million in matching funds; $116 million for engineering and design study to replace Bush, Gunpowder, Susquehanna river bridges on the NEC between Baltimore & Wilmington.

Massachusetts: $98.4 million to replace Merrimack River bridge in Haverhill for MBTA and Downeaster.

Michigan: $196.5 million for Kalamazoo to Dearborn section of the Chicago-Detroit corridor for upgrades to 110 mph, $5.2 million for Kalamazoo-Dearborn Deferred Maintenance Program that could begin this summer, $2.9 million for the West Detroit Connection Track Universal Crossover; $3.5 million for an intermodal station in Ann Arbor.

Minnesota: $145 million for Twin Cities to Duluth Northern Lights Express project

Missouri: $937 million total: $337 million for current Kansas City to St. Louis corridor and St. Louis projects; $600 million for study, engineering, and ROW acquisition for KC to St. Louis HSR corridor.

NC: $624 million total: for a series of projects, but also includes $300 million to buy 140 miles of the CSX S-Line ROW from Petersburg VA to Cary, NC for the SE HSR corridor. $50 million for 75 miles of the abandoned S-Line, $250 million for 65 miles of the active part of the S-Line.

New Mexico: ?

Nevada: request for planning money for a western HSR network connecting Las Vegas to Salt Lake City, Phoenix, and LA.

NY: $517 million for 8 projects: $294.7 million for Harold interlocking 2 mile bypass route to avoid conflicts with LIRR (part of East Side Access project), $49.8 million for phase 2 design of Moynihan station, $112 million for new signal system from Croton-Harmon to Poughkeepsie, $18.6 million for replacing 48 miles of Hudson signal system from Poughkeepsie to Albany, $35.4 for final phase 4th track construction at Rensselaer station, $4.1 million for track and platform upgrades at Schenectady station, $1.4 million for PE for Rochester intermodal station, $1.75 million for Niagara Falls high-speed rail and maintenance facility.

Oregon: $13.1 million total for 5 Cascades projects: $1.2 million for PE for track improvements between East Portland and Albina Yard, $700K for Lake Yard upgrades, $3.7 million for double track from Willsburg Junction to Clackamas, $1.5 million for Eugene station layover tracks, $6 million to purchase 3 used locomotives.

Pennsylvania: $248 million for Keystone East corridor: upgrade 5 interlocking segments with track, signal, catenary improvements to reduce Harrisburg to Philly trip times by 20 minutes as a Phase 2 project to upgrade speeds on corridor to 125 mph, install high level platforms at 3 stations. $73.3 million in matching funds provided for $321.2 million total project.

Rhode Island: $31 million: $25 million for 3rd track at Kingston station for Acela and Amtrak bypass traffic, $6 million for studies including TF Green Airport station

South Carolina: ?

Texas: $43 million total: $18 million for PE and EIS for proposed Dallas/FW to Houston HSR line; $24.8 million for final design and construction of PTC for the Trinity Rail Express corridor.

Utah: requested funding for a study of high speed rail corridors in the Intermountain West.

Vermont: $80 million for Ethan Allen western corridor expansion.

WA: $120 million for Cascades corridor projects.

Wisconsin: $150 million plus $10 state matching for Chicago to Milwaukee Hiawatha service for new rolling stock and maintenance facility. Buy 2 train sets and eight locomotives, build a maintenance facility in Milwaukee, and renovate the train shed at the downtown Milwaukee Amtrak-Greyhound station for Amtrak’s Hiawatha line connecting Milwaukee-to-Chicago ($30M).

[SpawnOfVulcan]

Originally Posted by aquablue

Obama isn't the problem, it is the house & maybe senate too.

What can Obama do? Do you want him to start preaching about HSR? He has 3 wars to fight and more important things to deal with. Obama is afraid of becoming a liberal for 2012.

If the country overall hates rail and thinks its a waste, so be it, it won't be getting any decent rail until opinion changes. Majority rules, sadly. Country is too divided in philosophy these days, pretty sad.

I really do think Obama is part of the problem. I'm not a fan of the guy, but he hasn't done a good job of getting out there and explaining what HSR is for the country. As soon as he can show the country that HSR can do for us what the interstate system has done (the positive qualities, as far as intercity commerce goes), he's won over the country.

We all know how Republicans have a love affair with interstates and freeways, so something has to be done to show some sort of correlation. I honestly think that if he can do that, he'd have support.

Obama's transit stances are some of the few things that I like about him, and I'm tired of him sitting on the sidelines of this issue. In general, I think it's possible to get right wing support because this is a "hard", structural, physical investment in infrastructure, and not an intangible program.

HSR has the potential to FACILITATE massive amounts of economic expansion, which is supposed to be what the GOP is about. Sadly, they're stuck in the mode of 'oppose Obama', and it keeps their ears and eyes blind to the possible ideas that both sides could work together on.

Don't just blame Obama, don't blame just the GOP, don't just blame the Democrats in general, it's the fault of next to everyone in those two branches of government.

I'm hoping that these budget arguments and compromises will lead to the possibility of future work on HSR legislation that's done right. It's important that we don't go out and build corridors all willy nilly (forgive me if I misspelled that). Smaller networks need to be built around future national hubs, and then we've got to branch out from there. Get a good, strong foundation, get some more support built up, and keep going from there.