Transit Fantasies

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Sure you can, some places like NY and London have lots of spurs dangling off of main lines. You look at the sign on the front of each train to see which terminus it's going to. The trains combine to give more frequent service on the shared segments. Not saying it's necessarily a good idea for our network, but it's not unusual.

Those systems happen to have very long trains that run infrequently, whereas we have short trains that run frequently. What will happen is that the trunk line they all run on will be at capacity, while down the line, as spurs break off, the line becomes underserved with less and less trains providing less and less frequency.

Instead of building spurs, the best options cited by many students and professionals on here before has been to use the Skytrain system as single, independent lines acting as a transit-system backbone for bus lines and future LTR/streetcar lines to feed into. To do anything else would handicap Skytrain's ability to fully and most efficiently perform this function, as this was it's original design purpose.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by Canadian Mind

Instead of building spurs, the best options cited by many students and professionals on here before has been to use the Skytrain system as single, independent lines acting as a transit-system backbone for bus lines and future LTR/streetcar lines to feed into.

So, that means no cheap connection to BCIT in the foreseeable future. PNE, perhaps as part of a line from Gastown.

[trofirhen]

At this point in the Transit Fantasies thread, would it be an idea to put things in visual terms? Otherwise stated - (without perhaps the elaborate and large-scale designs) -- some of those great graphics that folks like Allan Kwan and Deasine, among others, used to make?

Just a suggestion, but being able to visualize something makes it much easier to internalize and to understand.

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by Zassk

So, that means no cheap connection to BCIT in the foreseeable future. PNE, perhaps as part of a line from Gastown.

Funny, I would have thought a B-line from Waterfront to BCIT to Metrotown via Hastings and Willingdon would be the cheapest alternative?

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

At this point in the Transit Fantasies thread, would it be an idea to put things in visual terms? Otherwise stated - (without perhaps the elaborate and large-scale designs) -- some of those great graphics that folks like Allan Kwan and Deasine, among others, used to make?

Just a suggestion, but being able to visualize something makes it much easier to internalize and to understand.

It's very crude, and I didn't label any stations, but here is the general route outline:



Expo is the blue, obviously. As for Millennium, the colour yellow irritates the hell out of me, and it blends in with the roads, so I made it red. Though in hindsight, maybe green would have been a good idea? Hastings/Willingdon Line is brown.

[trofirhen]

That's a practical idea, CM. I just wonder how you're planning to mitigate that sharp right-angle turn at Hastings and Willingdon.

But having a "Loop" like that is always good, in almost any urban context.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

At this point in the Transit Fantasies thread, would it be an idea to put things in visual terms? Otherwise stated - (without perhaps the elaborate and large-scale designs) -- some of those great graphics that folks like Allan Kwan and Deasine, among others, used to make?

Just a suggestion, but being able to visualize something makes it much easier to internalize and to understand.

Ok, here's my idea. Phase 1 and 2 are likely to be cheaper than Canadian Mind's route because mine follows an easy right-of-way and avoids hills, but perhaps would pickup less ridership. However, my route could be "easily" branched off across the 2nd Narrows to add riders from the North Shore to the SkyTrain network.

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

That's a practical idea, CM. I just wonder how you're planning to mitigate that sharp right-angle turn at Hastings and Willingdon.

But having a "Loop" like that is always good, in almost any urban context.

There is a medium sized property on the southwest corner of Hastings and Willingdon. I can't tell what it is from the top-down view, nor have I driven to that particular intersection before, but I imagine it would be possible to build a curve over the property and maintain the structure/have owner retain property and build something new after Skytrain, or expropriate it entirely, regardless of what it is.

As for the route, running a line directly east from downtown along Hastings would provide for more people than running it along the waterfront. One, you are serving developments along both sides of the track, instead of just one side (the other being water). Two, Hastings corridor is already more dense than along the waterfront. Not Broadway style density, but none the less a significant amount.

I also don't see why, once outside of the heritage district, that the train couldn't come above ground for the length of Hastings?

Reference it turning south, I considered the ideas of it running along the freeway, or having it turn southwest at Boundary, and along Douglas Rd to Willingdon. I ditched the highway idea because I've always been under the impression that Brentwood is a significant stop, being at the corner of Lougheed Hwy @ Willingdon, as well as the location of the Brentwood Town Centre. I'm not 100%, but I thought far more bus routes also went through there compared to adjacent stations along Millennium Line.

As for choosing between having the line go to Hastings and Willingdon or having it turn southwest and Hastings and Boundary, it really was just a coin toss, but I imagined more people would be served going further east before turning south?

Besides, my diagram was for a B-line route that could someday transition into Skytrain, not Skytrain outright.

Also, Zassk, I already gave my reason for not liking branch lines. Why do you keep bringing it up as an option? What benefits are there that wont be served by the use of cheaper express busses instead? Further, why build a line to North Van? I was under the impression they already expressed there disdain for RRT north of the inlet.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Canadian Mind

There is a medium sized property on the southwest corner of Hastings and Willingdon. I can't tell what it is from the top-down view, nor have I driven to that particular intersection before, but I imagine it would be possible to build a curve over the property and maintain the structure/have owner retain property and build something new after Skytrain, or expropriate it entirely, regardless of what it is.

As for the route, running a line directly east from downtown along Hastings would provide for more people than running it along the waterfront. One, you are serving developments along both sides of the track, instead of just one side (the other being water). Two, Hastings corridor is already more dense than along the waterfront. Not Broadway style density, but none the less a significant amount.

I also don't see why, once outside of the heritage district, that the train couldn't come above ground for the length of Hastings?

Reference it turning south, I considered the ideas of it running along the freeway, or having it turn southwest at Boundary, and along Douglas Rd to Willingdon. I ditched the highway idea because I've always been under the impression that Brentwood is a significant stop, being at the corner of Lougheed Hwy @ Willingdon, as well as the location of the Brentwood Town Centre. I'm not 100%, but I thought far more bus routes also went through there compared to adjacent stations along Millennium Line.

As for choosing between having the line go to Hastings and Willingdon or having it turn southwest and Hastings and Boundary, it really was just a coin toss, but I imagined more people would be served going further east before turning south?

Besides, my diagram was for a B-line route that could someday transition into Skytrain, not Skytrain outright.

Also, Zassk, I already gave my reason for not liking branch lines. Why do you keep bringing it up as an option? What benefits are there that wont be served by the use of cheaper express busses instead? Further, why build a line to North Van? I was under the impression they already expressed there disdain for RRT north of the inlet.

Makes alot of sense, C.M.
My only reservation is having come up to street level along Hastings.
Yes, yes, yes, I know it's cheaper, but it's uglier, too, and inteferes with vehicular traffic trying to makes turns. (remember those videos of the crashes making left turns in front of many US grade-level systems)??!!

Also, if I may speak on behalf of the North Shore rsidents (where I originally hailed from) ... I don't think they are anti-rrt at all. They just don't want to go downtown over the Second Narrows rail bridge the long way around.

A line going straight under Burrard Inlet to the Lonsdale Quay area, and maybe up to 15th and Lonsdale would be pure gold to them ..... but prohibitively expensive. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ That is the greatest stumbling block. I don't think there will ever be sufficient funding for that, regrettably.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by Canadian Mind

Also, Zassk, I already gave my reason for not liking branch lines. Why do you keep bringing it up as an option?

Not a branch line. I'm proposing a new north-south line, with track connections to Millennium only for managing the rolling stock. Initially the line would only go from BCIT to PNE, but with future extensions at both ends to complete the line substantially similar to what you suggested.

If you are referring to the notion of a dangling line ending at BCIT: I'm not the one who said BCIT needed to be reached by a line, but I acknowledge that it would have an immediate "payoff", and doesn't necessarily need to wait for funding for an expensive line underneath the Willingdon and Burnaby Heights hills. Tunnels are always best, but they are damn expensive, and they aren't necessary to serve the PNE or BCIT.

I agree with your statement that a Hastings SkyTrain line could be elevated east of Strathcona. I only proposed going along the waterfront for the following reason:

I foresee some government, in the near future, announcing a 1 or 2 station extension of Expo Line into Gastown and/or Strathcona. It would be dirt cheap to implement, and can be sold to the public as rehabilitating the DTES.

If this occurs, then a continuation eastward to PNE is really just a question of when, not if.... and the cheapest route will be the railyard rather than Hastings Street.

[Canadian Mind]

Trofirhen, I said above ground, not at ground. I hate the concept of at-grade mass transit. And thanks for the insight reference RRT attitudes in the north.

Zassk, ah, I see what you mean. I'm not a fan of branch lines like the Millenium-Expo split, but I see your point reference getting trains from the north to the south. But even then, I don't think we'll see rail transit north of the Inlet for a very long time.

[Chikinlittle]

I've always thought this corridor would be an excellent choice for another SkyTrain line, and the added connectivity of the network if taken from Waterfront all the way to Waterfront would bring excellent synergies with it.

As far as the second visual, having the line so close to the waterfront, however, would reduce the line's ability to capture riders. It would miss out on existing densities along the Hastings Street corridor itself.

As far as making a sharp-right turn, the property at the south-west corner of Hastings/Willingdon is definitely under-developed, plus one of the more unique abilities of SkyTrain technology is its ability to handle a relatively tight turn radius compared to other technologies. Also by taking the line through the Willingdon Heights/Capitol Hill area, there is a relatively higher density already in place there to tap into, as well as numerous businesses.

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?msa=0&...19727&t=h&z=13

(PS - trying to figure out how to embed the html code from Google Maps. Is there a way?)

[xd_1771]

Originally Posted by Chikinlittle

I've always thought this corridor would be an excellent choice for another SkyTrain line, and the added connectivity of the network if taken from Waterfront all the way to Waterfront would bring excellent synergies with it.

As far as the second visual, having the line so close to the waterfront, however, would reduce the line's ability to capture riders. It would miss out on existing densities along the Hastings Street corridor itself.

As far as making a sharp-right turn, the property at the south-west corner of Hastings/Willingdon is definitely under-developed, plus one of the more unique abilities of SkyTrain technology is its ability to handle a relatively tight turn radius compared to other technologies. Also by taking the line through the Willingdon Heights/Capitol Hill area, there is a relatively higher density already in place there to tap into, as well as numerous businesses.

http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?msa=0&...19727&t=h&z=13

(PS - trying to figure out how to embed the html code from Google Maps. Is there a way?)

Nice plan, but you definitely won't be able to expand Canada Line any further into Richmond due to the design sadly.
I really don't support opening LRT on that second of 152nd unless it is fully elevated, it is the main gateway to Surrey, your route takes it by a major high school/pedestrian crossing used by students, and takes it along the gateway from most of the metro to the entire city of Surrey (not counting Pattullo bridge). The area is very trafficked due to the entrances to Guildford being nearby, and I often see left turn lanes crowded and blocking the main lanes for 2 blocks in this area (on 152nd and other streets - esp. 102A, though that one might just be the really badly timed light). This is a place you really don't want to compromise at all.

[Chikinlittle]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Nice plan, but you definitely won't be able to expand Canada Line any further into Richmond due to the design sadly.

Understandably, not without double-tracking the section from Lansdowne through Brighouse.

[Millennium2002]

Just a refresh again: Rapid Transit in Vancouver V4

I've been tweaking it and all but frankly I think I may have backtracked to an older version with this most recent map. xD

SkyTrain does have the cool ability to turn on some sharper curves... however, it'd be a good idea not to try to exploit that all the time, as even with its flexibility the trains still have to slow down at spots along the current routes.

You might have seen this from previous maps but I had taken line 5 down the southern east-west corridors of Vancouver and towards UBC. This is retained in this map but shortened to Kerrisdale. In addition, rather than turning the line to serve Stanley Park I decided to turn it to serve Macdonald as the portion of the 22 that runs along that route is apparently quite busy. I may also just add in one more stop for convenience, and maybe complete the loop? (I'm hesitant to though because I know there'll be opposition from west-siders.) As for Stanley Park, that may be better served by a streetcar (which is not on the map due to its local nature).

Also compared to the previous map, I've done a lot of route simplification South of Fraser to keep costs down in line with ridership levels. So no, there's no LRT between 22nd St Stn and Brighouse Stn, no LRT between 22nd St Stn and Scottsdale, etc. Maybe that will come later, but I'm not positive at how much ridership those lines can get from the start of operation, considering that that is becoming one of the bigger justifications for building new lines in Vancouver.

[roccerfeller]

Since the thread is titled "transit fantasies", I'm going to say I would love to see a high speed train in western Canada...hitting up Vancouver to Winnipeg, going through Calgary and Regina would be sweeeeet (hey why not extend one to Edmonton & Saskatoon too via their own inter-provincial high speed lines??)

I will keep on dreaming, and you guys can keep posting these impressive skytrain possibilities

[Millennium2002]

err... xD

The only problem I see of your dream to see HSR connecting Vancouver and the rest of western Canada is that it is just that... a dream. = \ The current transport, political, and economic situation surrounding inter-Canada travel is that:
- there's very low demand for such a service
- build costs will be high, especially in BC with the Rockies in the way
- returns may be very small due to low ridership
- in effect, it's unlikely unless there's a string of new cities built along the way, which will never happen in today's world due to all the environmental assessments and such.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Canadian Mind

Trofirhen, I said above ground, not at ground. I hate the concept of at-grade mass transit. And thanks for the insight reference RRT attitudes in the north.

C.M., I know that elevated lines are cheaper than tunnels, and cause a lot less disruption and loss to merchants along the route during construction.

I think you idea is extremely practical. My only personal problem with it is that an elevated Skytrain track along Hastings in North Burnaby would be UG-LY I wish there were some way to get around that, because otherwise it's a great, and simple, concept.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by roccerfeller

Since the thread is titled "transit fantasies", I'm going to say I would love to see a high speed train in western Canada...hitting up Vancouver to Winnipeg, going through Calgary and Regina would be sweeeeet (hey why not extend one to Edmonton & Saskatoon too via their own inter-provincial high speed lines??)

I will keep on dreaming, and you guys can keep posting these impressive skytrain possibilities

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

err... xD

The only problem I see of your dream to see HSR connecting Vancouver and the rest of western Canada is that it is just that... a dream. = \ The current transport, political, and economic situation surrounding inter-Canada travel is that:
- there's very low demand for such a service
- build costs will be high, especially in BC with the Rockies in the way
- returns may be very small due to low ridership
- in effect, it's unlikely unless there's a string of new cities built along the way, which will never happen in today's world due to all the environmental assessments and such.

One possible corridor might be Calgary - Edmonton. A high speed rail link between those two cities would beat the once (or is it twice) per day BUDD Car that they have now .... (pathetic)!!

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Not a branch line. I'm proposing a new north-south line, with track connections to Millennium only for managing the rolling stock. Initially the line would only go from BCIT to PNE, but with future extensions at both ends to complete the line substantially similar to what you suggested.

If you are referring to the notion of a dangling line ending at BCIT: I'm not the one who said BCIT needed to be reached by a line, but I acknowledge that it would have an immediate "payoff", and doesn't necessarily need to wait for funding for an expensive line underneath the Willingdon and Burnaby Heights hills. Tunnels are always best, but they are damn expensive, and they aren't necessary to serve the PNE or BCIT.

I agree with your statement that a Hastings SkyTrain line could be elevated east of Strathcona. I only proposed going along the waterfront for the following reason:

I foresee some government, in the near future, announcing a 1 or 2 station extension of Expo Line into Gastown and/or Strathcona. It would be dirt cheap to implement, and can be sold to the public as rehabilitating the DTES.

If this occurs, then a continuation eastward to PNE is really just a question of when, not if.... and the cheapest route will be the railyard rather than Hastings Street.

There is more existing density and future redevelopment potential right on the Hastings Corridor compared to the waterfront. Hastings is a lot like Broadway, just a decade or so behind. Most of it's length from downtown to Willingdon is commercial or multi family, and it is the logical, and cheaper, direction for downtown to spread. A lot to the east of Hwy 1 has been built in recent years, and there are quite a few plans in the works, and a lot of underused land right on the street, prime for Transit oriented development. Houses along most of the route are on CPR style narrow lots, meaning SFH are tightly packed in. In Burnaby, there is a lot of tightly packed houses north and south of Hastings, meaning a lot of close riders.

I also believe that the land along the east side of Willingdon, between Hastings and Brentwood mall is owned by the city, for when they need to widen Willingdon, but could be used for transit needs. And at Willingdon at Lougheed, all that land is going to become towers. The mall is going to put up towers on its parking lots, and where the Nissan dealership was is going to become condos, and the Carter GM lot is HUGE and will probably go eventually (especially if there was a Willingdon line).

The hill on Willingdon to Metrotown is a bit overrated. Skytrain could easily handle the grade without a tunnel. I've been on many buses that have made it up that hill at over 50km/h, while on Clarke in PoMo, I've never been on a bus that went up that hill over 15km/h. They are different monsters. I bet that even LRT could handle the hill at grade, if not then some above ground guideways could be used to level the grade a bit. So I don't think it would be quite as expensive as you fear. Willingdon is an approved truck route, and I don't think there are any grade warning signs at the top of the hill, so it can't be that bad.

The side benefit of using Skytrain between Metrotown and Waterfront along Hastings is that it could provide a relief line to downtown along the busiest segment of Expo line. The travel time would only be a few minutes longer, and if you were starting your Skytrain journey at Metrotown to Downtown, taking the "back way", while longer, could mean you are not crammed in like sardines.

If LRT was used, the Hastings segment could be a major backbone of future light rail lines down other corridors, like Main, Commercial or Renfrew, or all the way down Hastings to SFU. I also don't think using LRT would be as bad as using LRT on Broadway because Hastings doesn't cross any major North/South corridors like Broadway does (and Hastings is already the worst road into downtown, so you can't really make it worse).