The 'Mountain Lion' Cities Rising in the U.S. West

[Buckeye Native 001]

I've lived in Arizona (with a 5 year detour in Southern California) way too long to be able to tolerate humidity. I try not to visit Cincinnati between the months of April and September if I can avoid it.

Don't know about Tucson, but Phoenix is increasingly unaffordable unless you like or enjoy living in far-flung burbs like Buckeye, Avondale, Goodyear, Sun Lakes/Queen Creek and Maricopa.

Also, yall are arguing about mountains!? This forum...

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Definitely much more arid and gentler elevations than Alps. Yosemite is to the Dolemites like the Ozarks are to the Cascades. The Dolemites are like hundreds and hundreds of El Capitans, but much more lush and perched above stunning Roman-era villages.

The Canadian Rockies are more scenic, and the Coastal Ranges are lush, but the Rockies aren't that impressive relative to the Alps. They're nice, but if I were a mountain person, I'd be in Northern Italy, Western Austria or Switzerland.

Jackson Hole is a good example. Outside the skiing/snowboarding, don't get it. Bleak, arid, flat.

Bleak, arid and flat . . . per Crawford:


https://www.google.com/search?q=teto...kGrP6Pnuc9vUtM

[LosAngelesSportsFan]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

Bleak, arid and flat . . . per Crawford:


https://www.google.com/search?q=teto...kGrP6Pnuc9vUtM

Lol exactly. Maybe he's talking about some other Jackson hole somewhere

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by Buckeye Native 001

I've lived in Arizona (with a 5 year detour in Southern California) way too long to be able to tolerate humidity. I try not to visit Cincinnati between the months of April and September if I can avoid it.

Don't know about Tucson, but Phoenix is increasingly unaffordable unless you like or enjoy living in far-flung burbs like Buckeye, Avondale, Goodyear, Sun Lakes/Queen Creek and Maricopa.

Also, yall are arguing about mountains!? This forum...

Just about everywhere in Arizona still seems cheap if you are from the Bay Area but Tucson is definitely cheaper (and less crowded, more Hispanic in flavor) than Phoenix. Supposedly the Tucson metro has over a million people but it doesn't really feel like it.

Besides, Tucson not only has lots of mountain lions but jaguars.

Let's discuss "jaguars cities"--there's probably only one in the US.

Elusive jaguar and ocelot captured on Southern Arizona trail cameras
Erin Stone
Arizona Republic
Feb 3, 2021

Two of the desert's rarest animals, a jaguar and an ocelot, showed up again on trail cameras in the rugged southern Arizona mountains. It's an encouraging sign for wildlife watchers in the borderlands and a reminder, they say, that the region remains a viable habitat for the stealthy cats.

The jaguar was spotted on Jan. 6 in the Dos Cabezas and Chiricahua Mountains near the U.S.-Mexico border in southeast Arizona. On Jan. 14, the ocelot was photographed less than 100 miles west in the Huachuca Mountains.

The male jaguar is the only one of its kind known to be in the U.S. It was first photographed in 2016 and has been observed on 45 separate occasions, according to the Arizona Game and Fish Department. The male ocelot, the only known one in Arizona, has been observed 94 times since 2012.

https://www.azcentral.com/story/news...as/4365394001/

[homebucket]

Since this is a skyscraper forum and all, I would like to point out that the tallest point in the Dolomites is Marmolada, at 10,968 ft. Milan to this area is about 5 hours by car, so it's not like the Dolomites are right at the footstep of civilization. It's not any more accessible than Yosemite, or Tahoe, or Mammoth, or Whitney Portal (although they are obviously not accessible at the moment due to wildfires).

The Sierras, on the other hand, feature 26 peaks (with at least 500 meters of topographic prominence) above 10,968 ft, and overall, California has 35 total peaks taller than Marmolada. Yosemite itself, has a tallest point of 13,120 ft, at Mount Lyell, and overall 31 peaks of various prominence over 12,000 ft.

I don't know about y'all, but the last time I checked, 12,000 ft is taller than 10,968 ft. 10,000 ft is actually about where the tree line is in the Sierras where trees have difficulty growing at such altitudes. Perhaps that's why Crawford thinks the Alps are more lush? Because the peaks are closer to the treeline, and therefore more visible from the shorter peaks? Anyone who's spent time in the Eastern Sierras knows that 11,000 ft isn't all that impressive and is where people actually set up base camps to start acclimating to the altitude to prepare for summiting the 14ers. I suppose one could describe raw granite as bleak.

[proghousehead]

Originally Posted by proghousehead

Just some random east coast mountain pics. I agree they’re underrated. Sure not the Tetons or Mount Whitney - but still appreciable and beyond “hills” as my west coast cousins like to condescendingly refer to the nature close
To New York. Exhibits:

Bump

[Pedestrian]

Originally Posted by homebucket

Anyone who's spent time in the Eastern Sierras knows that 11,000 ft isn't all that impressive and is where people actually set up base camps to start acclimating to the altitude to prepare for summiting the 14ers. I suppose one could describe raw granite as bleak.

The Tioga Rd, SR120, crossing through Yosemite Park cleaves through the mountains at Tioga Pass which is at an elevation of 9943 ft. It's a beautiful drive that you can only do in summer because the winter snows close the road but it passes a number of "alpine" lakes that are anything but arid. This being a "pass", the mountain peaks loom over it but the road itself is only 1000 ft lower than that "tallest peak" in the Dolomites.

Tanya Lake on the Tioga Rd.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Tiog...Dk9ZEbawd2GXjM

Arid?

[jmecklenborg]

I lived in Knoxville, TN for several years. People would always say that they loved "living near the mountains", but I hardly ever heard about anyone going to the mountains and doing a hike. I wouldn't be surprised if 50% of Knoxville's 800,000 residents haven't been to the Great Smoky Mountains National Park in the last 5 years.

The old Los Angeles "I can surf and ski in the same day" think is the exact same. Many LA-area residents go years without setting foot on the beaches. They're sitting inside watching TV and playing video games.

I rented a hi-end mountain bike a few years ago on a visit to LA. The guys at the shop asked me where I was visiting from. I said Ohio, so they immediately pictured flat cornfields, which describes maybe half of Ohio, but not the area where I live and ride. I rolled back into the shop 3 hours later and the guys were in disbelief that I had gone out in the middle of the day and not had any problems with the heat and I really wasn't even winded. So am I saying that a lot of Colorado and west coast outdoorsy people are more into saying they're outdoorsy than actually doing the work? Yes I am.

Here is the bike I rented on the ride I just described. It was a 2015 Santa Cruz Bronson - a totally incredible bike.

[KevinFromTexas]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Does Austin have mountain lions?

They have been spotted here before, yes. Mostly on the western fringes of the city, southwest, west, and northwest.

I've never seen one, and would rather not. I did see a coyote in front of our neighbor's house across the street earlier this summer.

My brother messaged me with this on Facebook in July before we went for a mountain bike ride that day. SATN stands for South Austin Trail Network. I've heard of them out that way before - around the Circle C neighborhood, around the Veloway, and the Lady Bird Wildflower Center.

Here's a map of that area where they spotted it. My brother and I have ridden there a couple of times. It's around 10 1/2 miles southwest of downtown.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Fa...!4d-97.8943205

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

Bleak, arid and flat . . . per Crawford:


https://www.google.com/search?q=teto...kGrP6Pnuc9vUtM

In his defense, the Grand Tetons do rise up abruptly and dramatically out of what is pretty much flat prairie land. By the way, I have a jigsaw puzzle of that very scene.

[dc_denizen]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Definitely much more arid and gentler elevations than Alps. Yosemite is to the Dolemites like the Ozarks are to the Cascades. The Dolemites are like hundreds and hundreds of El Capitans, but much more lush and perched above stunning Roman-era villages.

The Canadian Rockies are more scenic, and the Coastal Ranges are lush, but the Rockies aren't that impressive relative to the Alps. They're nice, but if I were a mountain person, I'd be in Northern Italy, Western Austria or Switzerland.

Jackson Hole is a good example. Outside the skiing/snowboarding, don't get it. Bleak, arid, flat.

the canadian rockies are arboreally monotonous. pines, pines, pines.

I prefer to interplay of arid and mountainous. the san juan mountains in sw colorado, for example.

[homebucket]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

So am I saying that a lot of Colorado and west coast outdoorsy people are more into saying they're outdoorsy than actually doing the work? Yes I am.

Here is the bike I rented on the ride I just described. It was a 2015 Santa Cruz Bronson - a totally incredible bike.

I disagree. Maybe because I am one of those people, but I know plenty of people that hike, bike, surf, kayak, ski/snowboard on the weekends or even before/after work.

Guess what city is home to the headquarters of the bike that you rented? Not to mention well regarded brands like Specialized, Marin, and Ibis are all in the Bay Area. While offroad biking existed in some form or another before, the sport of modern mountain biking was made popular in Marin County on Mt Tamalpais, and the first downhill races were held here. The Specialized Stumpjumper was the first mass produced mountain bike in the world.

I'd say the outdoor culture here is very strong.

[xzmattzx]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

from my three cousins who grew up in suburban chicagoland and moved out west as young adults (seattle, SLC, and portland), the big draw for all of them was apparently the abundance of outdoorsy shit out west.

none of them are huge "city" people, and those three cities all provide enough "city" for their tastes, while also providing great access to mountains and true wilderness, which is something that chicagoland, surrounded on all sides by endless cornfields, decidedly lacks.

a lot of young people just want to snow board, mountain bike, rock climb, whitewater raft, etc. as much as they possibly can. as long as there are also a few craft breweries and coffee shops nearby, they're good.

Buffalo could be the East Coast version of this. There's skiing and snowmobiling in the winter, and in the summer you have tons of watersporting activities like boating or jetskiing on one of the two Great Lakes, beaches on either lake, swimming at the Finger Lakes, and so on; plus great state parks with gorges, hills, and mountains. The western New York craft beer scene isn't on par with Colorado or northern California, but the wineries in the Finger Lakes and Chautauqua County can cover for that.

On another note, I know a couple millennials that moved from Manhattan and Brooklyn to Vermont for the outdoors and to raise kids. Vermont has those craft breweries, of course. The Berkshires and Vermont could also see a wave of people too.

[mrnyc]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

Yeah, we should only build on brownfield sites and stay out of the woods.

Of course if we banned immigration and having babies, we wouldn't need to expand the current urban footprint at all.*

*Satire warning

interesting. your orange diaper wearing god did just that ... and yet mountain lion cities took off anyway. go figure.

[Omaharocks]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

I lived in Knoxville, TN for several years. People would always say that they loved "living near the mountains", but I hardly ever heard about anyone going to the mountains and doing a hike. I wouldn't be surprised if 50% of Knoxville's 800,000 residents haven't been to the Great Smoky Mountains National Park in the last 5 years.

The old Los Angeles "I can surf and ski in the same day" think is the exact same. Many LA-area residents go years without setting foot on the beaches. They're sitting inside watching TV and playing video games.

I rented a hi-end mountain bike a few years ago on a visit to LA. The guys at the shop asked me where I was visiting from. I said Ohio, so they immediately pictured flat cornfields, which describes maybe half of Ohio, but not the area where I live and ride. I rolled back into the shop 3 hours later and the guys were in disbelief that I had gone out in the middle of the day and not had any problems with the heat and I really wasn't even winded. So am I saying that a lot of Colorado and west coast outdoorsy people are more into saying they're outdoorsy than actually doing the work? Yes I am.[/URL]

I've lived in the southeast, within a couple hours of the Smokies, and also in both Santa Fe and Albuquerque, NM.

My experience far north GA matches yours in Knoxville - people admire the views but aren't particularly outdoorsy other than the occasional fishing trip or short hike.

However, New Mexico is way different. It's a unique state so maybe doesn't equate well to places like L.A. certainly, but the culture revolves around the outdoors.

Albuquerque is roughly the same size as Knoxville. If you live in ABQ your social life largely revolves around hiking/biking with friends, camping near hot springs in the Jemez on weekends, and longer trips into the Sangres and San Juans.

Not only is it far easier to access wilderness in New Mexico, but the drive will take you through numerous microclimates/landscapes which has immense appeal itself, and the scale of outdoor possibilities is just far beyond anything out east. Crawford clearly has limited experiences in the west, as most areas above a certain elevation will be as green as anywhere in the Alps.

All that said, I do still think the mountain landscapes in the southern appalachians are underrated.

[KevinFromTexas]

I first saw this over 20 years ago and it's still a favorite. I especially like the Yellowstone and Grand Teton segments.

• Video Link

[AviationGuy]

Originally Posted by TexasPlaya

Can't go outside without the threat of a mountain lion attack.

If anything we are invested with deer, not enough bobcats and coyotes.

I've heard of mountain lions in the hills of Austin, but tons of coyotes, foxes, bobcats, deer, and just about anything else you can think of.

[LosAngelesSportsFan]

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

The Tioga Rd, SR120, crossing through Yosemite Park cleaves through the mountains at Tioga Pass which is at an elevation of 9943 ft. It's a beautiful drive that you can only do in summer because the winter snows close the road but it passes a number of "alpine" lakes that are anything but arid. This being a "pass", the mountain peaks loom over it but the road itself is only 1000 ft lower than that "tallest peak" in the Dolomites.

Tanya Lake on the Tioga Rd.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Tiog...Dk9ZEbawd2GXjM

Arid?

30 to 60 feet of snow annually, often with snow on the mountains till August... ARID!

[LA21st]

Originally Posted by jmecklenborg

I lived in Knoxville, TN for several years. People would always say that they loved "living near the mountains", but I hardly ever heard about anyone going to the mountains and doing a hike. I wouldn't be surprised if 50% of Knoxville's 800,000 residents haven't been to the Great Smoky Mountains National Park in the last 5 years.

The old Los Angeles "I can surf and ski in the same day" think is the exact same. Many LA-area residents go years without setting foot on the beaches. They're sitting inside watching TV and playing video games.

I rented a hi-end mountain bike a few years ago on a visit to LA. The guys at the shop asked me where I was visiting from. I said Ohio, so they immediately pictured flat cornfields, which describes maybe half of Ohio, but not the area where I live and ride. I rolled back into the shop 3 hours later and the guys were in disbelief that I had gone out in the middle of the day and not had any problems with the heat and I really wasn't even winded. So am I saying that a lot of Colorado and west coast outdoorsy people are more into saying they're outdoorsy than actually doing the work? Yes I am.

Here is the bike I rented on the ride I just described. It was a 2015 Santa Cruz Bronson - a totally incredible bike.

Of course some people don't go anywhere, sure. But that's not the point.
The people who do want to be active, are very active. Most people I know in LA visit the beach often. Not every week, but probably 1-2 a month.
If they're not going to the beach, they're hiking, road trip etc.

I don't ski, but if I did, I would definetely try the skiing and and beach in a day, sure. It's possible, as they say.

I hike and go to the beach within minutes. Hell, I can walk it.

Hike in Malibu/Pacific Palisades and then go on the bike trail on the beach. It's amazing. Then if I want to see city life, I wander into Santa Monica/Venice. All this can be done in 3-4 hours by foot. Much less by car.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by homebucket

Since this is a skyscraper forum and all, I would like to point out that the tallest point in the Dolomites is Marmolada, at 10,968 ft. Milan to this area is about 5 hours by car, so it's not like the Dolomites are right at the footstep of civilization. It's not any more accessible than Yosemite, or Tahoe, or Mammoth, or Whitney Portal (although they are obviously not accessible at the moment due to wildfires).

The Sierras, on the other hand, feature 26 peaks (with at least 500 meters of topographic prominence) above 10,968 ft, and overall, California has 35 total peaks taller than Marmolada. Yosemite itself, has a tallest point of 13,120 ft, at Mount Lyell, and overall 31 peaks of various prominence over 12,000 ft.

I don't know about y'all, but the last time I checked, 12,000 ft is taller than 10,968 ft. 10,000 ft is actually about where the tree line is in the Sierras where trees have difficulty growing at such altitudes. Perhaps that's why Crawford thinks the Alps are more lush? Because the peaks are closer to the treeline, and therefore more visible from the shorter peaks? Anyone who's spent time in the Eastern Sierras knows that 11,000 ft isn't all that impressive and is where people actually set up base camps to start acclimating to the altitude to prepare for summiting the 14ers. I suppose one could describe raw granite as bleak.

Wow, never in a million years did I imagine I'd see a mention of Marmolada in the Dolomitis, a place I know very well from my geology field camp in the Italian Alps during the summer of 2000. I actually did a little snowshoeing on Marmolada Glacier during one afternoon. The cable car up to the top of the glacier was spectacular!

Anyone heard of the village of Feltre? It's where my field camp was based...

Aaron (Glowrock)

[badrunner]

Originally Posted by LosAngelesSportsFan

30 to 60 feet of snow annually, often with snow on the mountains till August... ARID!

Arid is fine. Warm arid and sunny is the ideal climate for human habitation. Once you're used to it, everything else feels like a swamp or a freezer.