HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions


View Poll Results: The trend of the future ?
Melting Pot 18 32.73%
Pan-Enclavism 24 43.64%
Other 13 23.64%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #61  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2021, 11:58 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,551
I mean, if you're a Jewish American, and want some connection to Jewish religious and cultural traditions, and don't want your kids to be the only ones in school who know about the High Holy Days, it makes sense to move near a visible community.

Even in the NYC metro, where Jews are practically everywhere, there are a number of desirable communities with virtually no Jews, even in 2021. Garden City, Bronxville, Ridgewood, Summit, New Canaan and Weston have very few Jews. Most of backcountry CT and NJ horse country are still overwhelmingly WASP/Catholic. Less common in Westchester, LI and inner NJ suburbs, though.
     
     
  #62  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2021, 12:10 AM
eschaton eschaton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Even in the NYC metro, where Jews are practically everywhere, there are a number of desirable communities with virtually no Jews, even in 2021. Garden City, Bronxville, Ridgewood, Summit, New Canaan and Weston have very few Jews. Most of backcountry CT and NJ horse country are still overwhelmingly WASP/Catholic. Less common in Westchester, LI and inner NJ suburbs, though.
I grew up in Fairfield County, Connecticut - albeit a pretty undistinguished corner of it (Trumbull) and I knew tons of Jews growing up. Like, out of my circle of friends, it was literally only myself and one other guy who wasn't either Jewish or Italian.
     
     
  #63  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2021, 12:16 AM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I grew up in Fairfield County, Connecticut - albeit a pretty undistinguished corner of it (Trumbull) and I knew tons of Jews growing up. Like, out of my circle of friends, it was literally only myself and one other guy who wasn't either Jewish or Italian.
Coastal Fairfield has lots of Jews these days, but the backcountry parts are still pretty WASP.

I assume Trumbull is kind of a postwar white flight town from Bridgeport, so represents Bridgeport's former demographics? All of urbanized CT has Italians, but maybe Bridgeport was fairly Jewish too?
     
     
  #64  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2021, 12:56 AM
eschaton eschaton is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 5,182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
Coastal Fairfield has lots of Jews these days, but the backcountry parts are still pretty WASP.

I assume Trumbull is kind of a postwar white flight town from Bridgeport, so represents Bridgeport's former demographics? All of urbanized CT has Italians, but maybe Bridgeport was fairly Jewish too?
There were a lot of people I knew growing up whose parents were from Bridgeport growing up. I'm actually not quite sure where most of my Jewish friends were from prior, though Bridgeport did have a fairly sizable Jewish presence itself at one point. My Jewish friends were all over the map in terms of income - one had a father who was a doctor, another had a father whose job was more or less running flea markets.

I should note my friend network probably wasn't representative of the town at large, since I was mostly in honors classes. But it was a Jewish enough town that Yiddish slang was regularly used by gentiles.
     
     
  #65  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2021, 1:47 AM
RST500 RST500 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 743
Quote:
Originally Posted by muppet View Post
Enforced melting pot results in enclavism a generation later -people rebel, they don't align with the larger culture if they're forced to do so. Their third generation kids may however do so, after so long a cultural onslaught and become native, albeit slightly embittered - as in France. Don't expect the journey to be smooth.



Enforced enclavism (so long as its not TOO ghetto) results in melting pot one generation later -the kids warm to a society that demands they don't have to speak the language, follow the religion or swear to a flag (often in a misguided hope they develop separately making their strange smelling bat voodoo in their own separated communities). As in Britain -the first generation not assimilating enough but the second generation openly so. Don't expect the journey to be smooth.


Once again both scenarios rely on ghettoisation (not just residentially but culturally) not being TOO overt, delineated or corrupted, whereby new generations have no economic piece of the pie regardless of their performance -eg Apartheid era South Africa or colonial/ postcolonial nations. Certain areas/ communities in the UK, France and US, even after centuries have however suffered this, while other communities haven't.


An 'enclave' may for example be 55 or 60 percent of that community. Whereas one that's 80-98% is pretty much a ghetto, either enforced or self-enforced. The latter doesn't tend to do well, it becomes isolated from the wider economy and culture.
I agree for the most part. I think the coercive assimilation model has backfired to some degree. I don't get the impression the article is calling for coercive enclavism but does call for freedom of association which some people on the left object to.
     
     
  #66  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2021, 9:26 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crawford View Post
I mean, if you're a Jewish American, and want some connection to Jewish religious and cultural traditions, and don't want your kids to be the only ones in school who know about the High Holy Days, it makes sense to move near a visible community.

Even in the NYC metro, where Jews are practically everywhere, there are a number of desirable communities with virtually no Jews, even in 2021. Garden City, Bronxville, Ridgewood, Summit, New Canaan and Weston have very few Jews. Most of backcountry CT and NJ horse country are still overwhelmingly WASP/Catholic. Less common in Westchester, LI and inner NJ suburbs, though.
Yeah desirable communities with at least some Jews are more appealing, even for secular and nonreligious Jews.

Don't Garden City and Bronxville have a rather Catholic character?
     
     
  #67  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2021, 9:42 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
Looking at Westchester, one of the most Jewish counties in the US, there's definitely a concentration in the Scarsdale area (36% of the population). More mixed but significant numbers in Northern Westchester, Sound Shore and River Towns too. I assume Scarsdale has a rather "Jewish" character while the others are culturally liberal suburbs with a Jewish presence.

https://www.jewishdatabank.org/conte...-Rev-10-13.pdf
     
     
  #68  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2021, 10:48 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Yeah desirable communities with at least some Jews are more appealing, even for secular and nonreligious Jews.

Don't Garden City and Bronxville have a rather Catholic character?
Both Garden City and Bronxville are (or were) stereotyped as WASP Episcopal strongholds, but nowadays Catholics might outnumber them. Not enough WASPs to go around in 2021 Northeastern U.S.

But both are generally not popular among Jews, Asians, expats and others, so some of the old cultural stereotypes hold. This is especially notable in the case of Bronxville, which is basically surrounded by heavily Jewish areas.

Doesn't seem to have hurt property values, though. Bronxville is probably the most expensive tri-state suburb by psf values, and Garden City is one of the most expensive LI suburbs. And I'm not sure if these communities are unfriendly to Jews so much as they just don't have any Jewish institutions or reasons for Jews to live there over other communities. Bronxville is pretty progressive, and wealthy U.S. Episcopals are generally left-leaning in 2021.
     
     
  #69  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2021, 11:00 PM
Crawford Crawford is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Brooklyn, NYC/Polanco, DF
Posts: 30,551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Docere View Post
Looking at Westchester, one of the most Jewish counties in the US, there's definitely a concentration in the Scarsdale area (36% of the population). More mixed but significant numbers in Northern Westchester, Sound Shore and River Towns too. I assume Scarsdale has a rather "Jewish" character while the others are culturally liberal suburbs with a Jewish presence.

https://www.jewishdatabank.org/conte...-Rev-10-13.pdf
Westchester-residing Jewish colleagues of mine claim that the most Jewish area in current-day Westchester is Armonk, and Byram Hills High (the local public high school) is now the most Jewish public HS in Westchester.

Scarsdale, while also very Jewish, is less Jewish than a generation ago. The schools were solid majority Jewish a generation ago, and now more a plurality. There are more Asians and non-Jews who buy in for the outstanding schools.

But excepting Bronxville, pretty much any higher performing public school in Westchester will have some Jewish population.
     
     
  #70  
Old Posted Jun 12, 2021, 11:01 PM
Docere Docere is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 7,364
A Jewish conservative intellectual remarked (in the 70s I think) that Jews earn like Episcopalians and vote like Puerto Ricans. But now the high-status WASPs have moved in a more liberal direction so the children and grandchildren of these voters are probably Democrats now. So now Episcopalians are also voting like Puerto Ricans!
     
     
  #71  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2021, 7:02 AM
SFBruin SFBruin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 1,189
Something that I liked about LA when I was living there was the enclavism.

Like, Boyle Heights felt, to me, like I was visiting a foreign country. Koreatown, East Hollywood, Mar Vista, Little Persia etc. all had there own feel.

Of course, I might have a lucky perspective as a white dude who got to go home in West LA every night, idk, but it definitely was a different experience from living in Norcal, where homogenization and shared regional values seemed like the norm.
     
     
  #72  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2021, 4:13 PM
RST500 RST500 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 743
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFBruin View Post
Something that I liked about LA when I was living there was the enclavism.

Like, Boyle Heights felt, to me, like I was visiting a foreign country. Koreatown, East Hollywood, Mar Vista, Little Persia etc. all had there own feel.

Of course, I might have a lucky perspective as a white dude who got to go home in West LA every night, idk, but it definitely was a different experience from living in Norcal, where homogenization and shared regional values seemed like the norm.
Obviously Norcal is a vast and diverse area, including many rural areas but I don't think LA is necessarily any closer to enclavism than the Bay Area. The Bay Area has the geographic barriers which foster even greater fragmentation.

"California is a multicultural patchwork with countless examples of existing enclaves such as Chinatowns‎, Tehrangeles and Koreatown in Los Angeles‎, as well as the many Chicano and Mexican neighborhoods‎. Beyond existing designated enclaves, there are broader de-facto pan-enclaves with examples including Asian American areas in the San Gabriel Valley and parts of Northern Orange County, both South and East Asian areas throughout the Silicon Valley, African American areas in Historic South LA and parts of Oakland and Richmond in the Bay Area, and the heavily Jewish parts of LA’s Westside and San Fernando Valley.

You could even make the case that many European American areas in California are beginning to function as enclaves. Examples include the Sacramento Suburbs in Placer County, Clovis in the Fresno metro, parts of Marin County and Central Contra Costa County in the San Francisco Bay Area, San Luis Obispo on the Central Coast, South Eastern Ventura County, South Orange County, and North San Diego County."

https://robertstark.substack.com/p/c...-pan-enclavism
     
     
  #73  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2021, 4:36 PM
craigs's Avatar
craigs craigs is offline
Birds Aren't Real!
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,670
Quote:
Originally Posted by RST500 View Post
You could even make the case that many European American areas in California are beginning to function as enclaves. Examples include the Sacramento Suburbs in Placer County, Clovis in the Fresno metro, parts of Marin County and Central Contra Costa County in the San Francisco Bay Area, San Luis Obispo on the Central Coast, South Eastern Ventura County, South Orange County, and North San Diego County."

https://robertstark.substack.com/p/c...-pan-enclavism
Is this Stark guy you are promoting here defining "European American" as people who emigrated to the US from Europe, or just plain white people?

I can't wait to inform my Dad that he's got a brand new identity after all these decades, "European American," and that his suburban Placer County home is an "enclave" just like Chinatown and Koreatown are enclaves! But what about his Chinese-American wife and daughter? They outnumber him in the house, so does that mean they nullify the "European American" enclave on that block or something?
__________________
Donald Trump is America's Hitler.
     
     
  #74  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2021, 6:28 PM
SFBruin SFBruin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 1,189
Quote:
Originally Posted by RST500 View Post
Obviously Norcal is a vast and diverse area, including many rural areas but I don't think LA is necessarily any closer to enclavism than the Bay Area. The Bay Area has the geographic barriers which foster even greater fragmentation.
The Bay Area has greater geographic fragmentation, sure. LA is basically one giant plain.

That said, I feel like the Bay Area has a shared cultural identity more so than LA does. I don't feel like people who live in Boyle Heights, for example, spend that much time in West LA, and vice versa. When I visited a friend's family in OC once, they insisted that Laguna Nigel was NOT LA, despite being maybe 30 miles away.

I feel like somebody from Palo Alto would never complain if someone from out of town referred to them as living in San Francisco.

Idk, just my two cents. The Bay Area is geographically divided, but culturally seems to get along.
     
     
  #75  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2021, 6:52 PM
SFBruin SFBruin is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 1,189
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigs View Post
Is this Stark guy you are promoting here defining "European American" as people who emigrated to the US from Europe, or just plain white people?
I mean, if it's the latter, it's really just as fair as referring to another group of people as 'African Americans'. Just saying.
     
     
  #76  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2021, 7:30 PM
Capsicum's Avatar
Capsicum Capsicum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Western Hemisphere
Posts: 2,489
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFBruin View Post
I mean, if it's the latter, it's really just as fair as referring to another group of people as 'African Americans'. Just saying.
Yes, the double-barrel name thing doesn't seem to be used consistently.

If you argue that it's about place of origin (regardless of history, immigration status, number of generations removed etc.), then it makes sense that European, African, Asian etc. is just an adjective used to describe any American based on their ancestral old continent an ocean away.

But if you insist that it must only apply to people who are immigrants (say the 14% something percent of the US population who are foreign born), then what? Apply African Americans only to African immigrants, European American only to European immigrants, Asian American only to Asian immigrants?

Then everyone else (the 86% who are non-foreign born) is just American?

Is that how it works?
     
     
  #77  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2021, 7:46 PM
badrunner badrunner is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 2,698
It applies to visible minorities. It's not that complicated. It's silly to say "European-American" to refer to whites, and I bet the people saying it secretly feel stupid for saying it, but feel they have to for some stupid political agenda.
     
     
  #78  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2021, 8:44 PM
craigs's Avatar
craigs craigs is offline
Birds Aren't Real!
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 6,670
Quote:
Originally Posted by badrunner View Post
It applies to visible minorities. It's not that complicated. It's silly to say "European-American" to refer to whites, and I bet the people saying it secretly feel stupid for saying it, but feel they have to for some stupid political agenda.
Oh, it's definitely a political agenda. The blogger in question is very offended, he'll have you know, if you don't capitalize "white." And since, he explains, "woke" (invoked nine times) is bad and "liberal" (invoked twelve times) is fail, he wants to dissolve our liberal democracy and devolve power to autonomous racial/ethnic fiefdoms. Can a white homeland be far behind?
__________________
Donald Trump is America's Hitler.
     
     
  #79  
Old Posted Jun 13, 2021, 11:39 PM
RST500 RST500 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 743
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster Posey View Post
White people hate being called European-American because it implies that their ancestors come from somewhere else (duh) like all the other ethnic groups here. Most White Americans honestly believe that America is their God-given "homeland" and that every other ethnic group is a "guest" who are obliged to be grateful to their white "hosts".
The article calls out that mentality of conservativism as well:

"Right-wingers hate the idea of diversity, even if pan-enclavism is less actively detrimental to Whites, and center-right and center-left types, especially the older generations, will simply never let go of the Universalist American liberal ideal and the idea of one unified society."

https://robertstark.substack.com/p/c...-pan-enclavism
     
     
  #80  
Old Posted Jun 14, 2021, 1:35 AM
Capsicum's Avatar
Capsicum Capsicum is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Western Hemisphere
Posts: 2,489
I sort of get the point of the article, but this part describing the supposed "conservative" mentality seems to contradict

Quote:
Originally Posted by RST500 View Post
The article calls out that mentality of conservativism as well:

"Right-wingers hate the idea of diversity, even if pan-enclavism is less actively detrimental to Whites, and center-right and center-left types, especially the older generations, will simply never let go of the Universalist American liberal ideal and the idea of one unified society."

https://robertstark.substack.com/p/c...-pan-enclavism
... this type of mindset.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Buster Posey View Post
White people hate being called European-American because it implies that their ancestors come from somewhere else (duh) like all the other ethnic groups here. Most White Americans honestly believe that America is their God-given "homeland" and that every other ethnic group is a "guest" who are obliged to be grateful to their white "hosts".
How is believing that "that every other ethnic group is a "guest" who are obliged to be grateful to their white "hosts"." consistent with "the Universalist American liberal ideal and the idea of one unified society".

If you (not talking about you or anyone personally here but broadly speaking), believe only one racial or ethnic group owns America as their "homeland", and hosts the others as guests, that mentality is not exactly one called "universalist", but particularist.

Even if you take as given ideal all groups assimilating into one American culture (speak English, eat apple pie or whatever normative Anglo-American culture you treat as "default"), it would still not follow that after everyone assimilated into said unified society any one group composing it, alone "hosts" the country. Assimilated, Black, Asian, Hispanic, Native or whatever group would "co-host" in this so-called unified American society alongside and along with those of European descent. Even if then, still-newer unassimilated immigrants, are argued to be guests compared to the "already-here" in American society.

And that's not even questioning the assumption that traditionally the conservative view (well, depends on how far back you call "traditional" or "conservative") was wanting a whole bunch of people of diverse origins to integrate into one American culture no matter their prior culture. More likely it was to not want certain groups to even have the chance to integrate into America, or at least be segregated away while in America -- for some, preferably to not come to America to begin with, or if already here, to to then leave.
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Closed Thread

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Discussion Forums > City Discussions
Forum Jump


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:27 PM.

     
SkyscraperPage.com - Archive - Privacy Statement - Top

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.