Lamenting the decline of the car

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by esquire

I wonder if there are also overpriced enthusiast lawnmowers available?

Does all the same things as a regular lawnmower, but with more roar!

I'll lament when they're gone.

Right now, I'll be happy they exist.

Dumb? Sure. A lot of things are dumb and pointless. I mean, major league sports could disappear tomorrow, the sun would still rise, and life would be the same.

It's just that I view these as more honest. Dumb, but honest about their intent. I'd rather them over another 400-horsepower pickup tootling down the road at 60 km/h with one passenger.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by thewave46

People with money, obviously.

I mean, a base Civic is $25k now, so the days of screaming deals are long dead.

They are going to only make a limited number too, so there's that. To me, this competes with the Honda Civic Type R, the Subaru WRX, et al.

The Subaru is probably the best deal, but the fact that Toyota is even bothering kind of warms my heart.

Hot hatches used to be fun cars for enthusiasts at a reasonable price, but are now essentially toys for the rich
The original civic type R was $15,000 after conversion when it came out, which would be about 25k in 2022 taking into account the official rate of inflation (lol). I guess 50k doesn’t buy you what it used to, but I think you can get a base Genesis G70 for about that much which is an actual luxury performance sedan.

[drew]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Anyone else see the new 2023 Toyota GR Corolla? Uh, wow.

300 horsepower from 3 cylinders. 6-speed. Hatchback.

That car looks awesome.

Love that it is only available in a manual. Do not love that you have to go up to the next model up to get a heated steering wheel... So $50k plus for that luxury.

But, this thing would be a lot of fun, especially in the winter.

100hp per cylinder. The last 3-cylinder I drove was a turbo sprint back in the mid 90's. That was a ton of fun too.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by thewave46

Anyone else see the new 2023 Toyota GR Corolla? Uh, wow.

300 horsepower from 3 cylinders. 6-speed. Hatchback.

I have to give Toyota props for going back to enthusiast mode in the last decade.

Toyota 86
Toyota Supra
Toyota GR Yaris (for overseas, alas)
Toyota GR Corolla

I suppose the last gasp of the internal combustion engine won't be boring. Kind of a late '60s mania going on right now.

Ha! That's cool 300 hp from a 1.6 l 3-cyl.

This is impressive to me:

GR-FOUR System
The first Toyota to feature this rally-derived front-to-rear adjustable AWD system, GR Corolla is ready to help you take on a range of road conditions.

I don't think I've seen another production car where you can adjust the front/rear AWD bias. That could add a whole new dimension of fun to winter driving.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by theman23

Hot hatches used to be fun cars for enthusiasts at a reasonable price, but are now essentially toys for the rich
The original civic type R was $15,000 after conversion when it came out, which would be about 25k in 2022 taking into account the official rate of inflation (lol). I guess 50k doesn’t buy you what it used to, but I think you can get a base Genesis G70 for about that much which is an actual luxury performance sedan.

If you look at the big picture, though, you could get the type of performance in the older R (or SiR in Canada) versions in an Si or even lower model now. The current Type R is literally a snarling beast that can be driven in the most docile traffic situation.

I also think they are too expensive, but there are lots of 'fun to drive' alternatives at a lower price point if you're OK with not having the top dog (for nothing more than bragging rights in most cases).

[theman23]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

If you look at the big picture, though, you could get the type of performance in the older R (or SiR in Canada) versions in an Si or even lower model now. The current Type R is literally a snarling beast that can be driven in the most docile traffic situation.

I also think they are too expensive, but there are lots of 'fun to drive' alternatives at a lower price point if you're OK with not having the top dog (for nothing more than bragging rights in most cases).

I'm having a hard time thinking of a fun to drive car that you can buy in the $20,000 range, which is really the price point that you need for these cars to be as accessible as they were in the 90s. The BRZ is the cheapest fun car I can think of, and even that is over 30k before dealership fees. A Honda Civic Si is pretty nuts too - its a 37k car now, and will probably get close to 40k after dealer markups

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by theman23

I'm having a hard time thinking of a fun to drive car that you can buy in the $20,000 range, which is really the price point that you need for these cars to be as accessible as they were in the 90s. The BRZ is the cheapest fun car I can think of, and even that is over 30k before dealership fees. A Honda Civic Si is pretty nuts too - its a 37k car now, and will probably get close to 40k after dealer markups

A car - not even a sporty one - retails for more than $20k today, unless it is a bottom spec Kia or Mitsubishi Mirage.

The 1990s were 30 years ago. The Blue Jays won the World Series. The Habs won the Cup. Jean Chretien was just getting settled in the PM’s office. Those times are gone and we are old.

Those sporty cars of the 1990s retailed for $20k then and automakers aren’t dumb. Twenty-somethings struggling for rent today are not buying sporty cars, or rollin’ in their 5.0s, or posting on internet forums. That dream is dead, so they’re aiming at mid-to-late 30s/early 40s folks who maybe got into a house before insanity hit and want to relive owning a used late ‘90s Civic Si, Acura Integra, or Neon SRT-4 before they got wrapped around a telephone post.

I suspect Toyota will sell every GR Corolla it wants to build at the price it is asking.

[theman23]

I’m aware, thanks.
The 90 example was only used because that’s when the Type R first was introduced. Price increases have really occurred in the 2010s, with a dramatic uptick in the last 5 years or so.

[Innsertnamehere]

$20k in 1995 would be $35k now. So yea, you can still buy an Si for that price. And an Si of 2023 will be a far superior vehicle in every way be it speed, size, amenities, safety, or whatever.

I would generally disagree with everyone here, cars have gotten substantially cheaper over the last 2 decades especially when comparing product quality. 90’s Hondas are little cars with 4 wheels and a steering wheel compared to their modern products which retail for basically the same price inflation adjusted.

What is happening is kids aren’t buying cars like they used to because kids don’t care about cars like they used to. That could be for one of many, many reasons, and has many exceptions of course.

What is also happening is people buy more expensive cars today since people are wealthier and because of low finance rates, which makes cars seem more expensive. In 1995 the civic was the average car for a Honda buyer, in 2022 its the CRV. In 1995 the best selling trim was the base trim, today it’s the Touring. People do actually have more money so cars seem more expensive and are designed as such since there are more clients to buy them. The 2023 Civic R simply couldn’t have existed in 1995 as nobody would have bought one.

[Truenorth00]

^ Agree with the above. However, I still don't get how you can argue that you're targeting enthusiasts with vehicles that cost above average. Isn't the entire point of the enthusiast category to target enthusiasts who are either starting out (young and cash poor) or will own multiple vehicles (and may not pay that much on one car)?

I'm inclined to say it's their business and they'll know how to run it. But their declining market share actually says that might not be true.

[Innsertnamehere]

An Si is the “affordable” fun car for Honda - the R is their upmarket sports car, in a way.

22 year old car enthusiasts are just generally not buying brand new cars either - just like always they are buying used. Brand new sports cars have never been something cheap.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

^ Agree with the above. However, I still don't get how you can argue that you're targeting enthusiasts with vehicles that cost above average. Isn't the entire point of the enthusiast category to target enthusiasts who are either starting out (young and cash poor) or will own multiple vehicles (and may not pay that much on one car)?

I'm inclined to say it's their business and they'll know how to run it. But their declining market share actually says that might not be true.

Usually the way it has worked is that the cars are purchased new by people a little more established but who still want a sporty car to drive. When they move on to another new vehicle, the old one gets shuffled off to the used car market where the younger buyer who couldn't afford one new can pick it up. Often those are the people who do the mods or customization or whatever.

Meanwhile, the older, modded cars with the 'street cred' built by the younger, active enthusiasts make the newer cars seem cooler by their lineage, which helps the sales of new ones.

As has been alluded to, the market has changed a lot. In general, younger people no longer want a car to be their first big purchase, and may never own one. Meanwhile, popularity has shifted away from sporty cars to the SUV/crossover style, and the companies make what people will buy. I think the higher-end sport compact type cars today are more just brand-image cars that don't sell a whole lot, but boost the company's image for perhaps the family person who would love to have one but has to drive an SUV or minivan upon their spouse's insistence... IMHO, marketing is a strange beast.

[Truenorth00]

Ugggh. The SUV/CUV craze. I honestly think this is at least partly why young people don't want to drive anymore.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

Ugggh. The SUV/CUV craze. I honestly think this is at least partly why young people don't want to drive anymore.

You may be right!

[thewave46]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

^ Agree with the above. However, I still don't get how you can argue that you're targeting enthusiasts with vehicles that cost above average. Isn't the entire point of the enthusiast category to target enthusiasts who are either starting out (young and cash poor) or will own multiple vehicles (and may not pay that much on one car)?

I'm inclined to say it's their business and they'll know how to run it. But their declining market share actually says that might not be true.

I would expect that the hardcore versions like the GR Corolla / Type R are kind of what the 440 6-pack/426 Hemi versions of Chrysler products were to their more mundane counterparts of the 1960s.

The lower-end early era Ford Mustangs and Plymouth Dusters of the era were far more popular writ large because they were practical enough to be usable daily, but have a little more zest than the mundane cars they were based off of.

A Dodge Challenger with the Hemi was a rare car, even in its era. Kind of a peak before the tide went out. It is just more surprising to me that Toyota - having gone through a period of exceptionally bland practicality before the release of the 86 - decided to join the party.

I’d wager that the automakers are reading the tea leaves right for the long-term, alas. Even enthusiast-lite versions of lower end cars are fading; compact coupes (of which the Civic was the last) and the decline of the manual transmission in those same (relatively) mundane vehicles are pointing in a certain direction.

Which makes the continued existence of something like a Civic Si or VW GTI sort of a minor miracle, I suppose. Reasonably affordable, reasonably engaging, reasonably practical. Not sure how long it lasts, but enjoy it while it does.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

$20k in 1995 would be $35k now. So yea, you can still buy an Si for that price. And an Si of 2023 will be a far superior vehicle in every way be it speed, size, amenities, safety, or whatever.

I would generally disagree with everyone here, cars have gotten substantially cheaper over the last 2 decades especially when comparing product quality. 90’s Hondas are little cars with 4 wheels and a steering wheel compared to their modern products which retail for basically the same price inflation adjusted.

What is happening is kids aren’t buying cars like they used to because kids don’t care about cars like they used to. That could be for one of many, many reasons, and has many exceptions of course.

What is also happening is people buy more expensive cars today since people are wealthier and because of low finance rates, which makes cars seem more expensive. In 1995 the civic was the average car for a Honda buyer, in 2022 its the CRV. In 1995 the best selling trim was the base trim, today it’s the Touring. People do actually have more money so cars seem more expensive and are designed as such since there are more clients to buy them. The 2023 Civic R simply couldn’t have existed in 1995 as nobody would have bought one.

I suspect kids aren't buying cars they used to partly because cars are far more expensive than they used to be. Amongst other things.

Cars have become bloated to partially justify the price increases, but that doesn't leave anything cheaper for people who's affordability hasn't improved. "Enthusiast" vehicle also tend to retain value, so the used car market isn't really a great option either if we're still on that topic of discussion. A lot of this is relatively recent phenomenon fueled by pandemic froth, so it might be temporary,

FYI, the 1995 Civic Si was a $17k car, which leaves the 2023 version about $5k more expensive than would have been expected based on inflation alone. Not terrible, but still substantial. Dealer markups are also a thing, but again - likely temporary.

Manufacturers have take advantage of low interest rates to pump prices while maintaining some semblance of "affordability". Not sure when we'll return to that. Large car manufacturers like Honda don't generally make cars to order. The popularity of the Touring likely has more to do with a desire from the manufacturer to push certain trims than an actual customer preference for higher level trims. If interest rates remain high, that'll likely have to change.

[Truenorth00]

I wish VW brought the Cupra brand to North America. Better than any GTI.

[theman23]

Originally Posted by Truenorth00

I wish VW brought the Cupra brand to North America. Better than any GTI.

It’s also a bit of a misnomer to label these cars as “sports cars”. My MK 7.5 GTI was more fun than a Golf, but at the end of the day it was still just a fun economy car.

[urbandreamer]

Why would any young person want a sporty 4 door sedan? Honda needs to bring back the Prelude.

If I could justify buying a new car today it would be a base model BRZ.

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by theman23

I suspect kids aren't buying cars they used to partly because cars are far more expensive than they used to be. Amongst other things.

Cars have become bloated to partially justify the price increases, but that doesn't leave anything cheaper for people who's affordability hasn't improved. "Enthusiast" vehicle also tend to retain value, so the used car market isn't really a great option either if we're still on that topic of discussion. A lot of this is relatively recent phenomenon fueled by pandemic froth, so it might be temporary,

FYI, the 1995 Civic Si was a $17k car, which leaves the 2023 version about $5k more expensive than would have been expected based on inflation alone. Not terrible, but still substantial. Dealer markups are also a thing, but again - likely temporary.

Manufacturers have take advantage of low interest rates to pump prices while maintaining some semblance of "affordability". Not sure when we'll return to that. Large car manufacturers like Honda don't generally make cars to order. The popularity of the Touring likely has more to do with a desire from the manufacturer to push certain trims than an actual customer preference for higher level trims. If interest rates remain high, that'll likely have to change.

They really aren’t.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1...pid=1810000407

Cars have increased at roughly half the rate of inflation over the last 20 years.CPI has cars being 24% more expensive than in 2002 - and CPI as a whole increased
Roughly 50% in that period. So cars have actually become ~18% cheaper than they were in 2002.

CPI controls quality of goods in these calculations. Ie if people are buying bigger vehicles inflating average prices CPI does not account for that, they track what a comparable product would cost across the market.

Cars may feel more expensive because incomes have also risen significantly in the last 20 years and people can buy fancier vehicles today, but cars really aren’t more expensive than they were. And that’s the real death knell of affordable fun cars - people don’t buy them any more since they have the money to buy expensive fun cars which are actually better vehicles.