Was the 80s the peak of the suburban era and the nadir of cities in the US?

[jd3189]

I was just thinking about it a few days ago. It seemed like the 80s was the best time for American suburbs. Shopping malls were en vogue, LA was on its way to eclipse Chicago as the 2nd largest city, and a lot of the major films and TV shows of that era took place in the suburbs. On the other hand, US cities were dealing with white flight, crime, reduced public funding, and gentrification was not as widespread. It wasn't until the 90s that things started to shift toward cities again and a lot of the hallmarks of suburban living back then have had issues since.

What do you guys think? I could be wrong but it kinda makes sense?

[Steely Dan]

The 70s were the nadir for us cities as far as population loss in city propers go.

Every legacy city was utterly walloped by white flight in that decade.

My own parents white flighted outta chicago to the burbs in the mid-70s just before I was born.


1970s population loss in legacy cities:

St. Louis: -27.1%*
Cleveland: -23.6%*
Buffalo: -22.7%*
Detroit: -20.5%
Pittsburgh: -18.5%*
DC: -15.6%*
Cincinnati: -14.8%*
Minneapolis: -14.6%*
Philly: -13.4%*
Baltimore: -13.1%*
Boston: -12.2%
Milwaukee: -11.3%*
Chicago: -10.7%*
NYC: -10.4%*

(*) signifies worst decade on record thus far

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

1970s population loss in legacy cities:

St. Louis: -27.1%*
Cleveland: -23.6%*
Buffalo: -22.7%*
Detroit: -20.5%
Pittsburgh: -18.5%*
DC: -15.6%*
Cincinnati: -14.8%*
Minneapolis: -14.6%*
Philly: -13.4%*
Baltimore: -13.1%*
Boston: -12.2%
Milwaukee: -11.3%*
Chicago: -10.7%*
NYC: -10.4%*

(*) signifies worst decade on record thus far

so we're all pretty much in agreement that some point in the late 70s or early 80s was the nadir for US legacy cities, generally speaking.

by 1990, it was clear that "something" was happening in some of them that was starting to right the ship, but it was certainly not an across the board thing.

looking at overall city-proper growth rates since 1990, a pretty clear divergence between bos-wash and the "rust-west" (hybrid region of rustbelt and midwest) appears, with a few exceptions of course.


1990 - 2020 city proper population change:

Detroit: -37.8%
Cleveland: -26.3%
St. Louis: -24.0%
Baltimore: -20.4%
Pittsburgh: -18.1%
Buffalo: -15.2%*
Cincinnati: -15.0%*
Milwaukee: -8.1%
Chicago: -1.3%*
Philly: +1.1%
DC: +13.6%
Minneapolis: +16.7%
Boston: +17.7%
NYC: +20.2%


(*) indicates an overall population loser for the past 3 decades that gained population in the 2020 census

[mhays]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

s
1990 - 2020 city proper population change:

Detroit: -37.8%
Cleveland: -26.3%
St. Louis: -24.0%
Baltimore: -20.4%
Pittsburgh: -18.1%
Buffalo: -15.2%*
Cincinnati: -15.0%*
Milwaukee: -8.1%
Chicago: -1.3%*
Philly: +1.1%
DC: +13.6%
Minneapolis: +16.7%
Boston: +17.7%
NYC: +20.2%
Seattle +42.8%

(*) indicates an overall population loser for the past 3 decades that gained population in the 2020 census

I edited the table to add Seattle, for homer purposes.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by mhays

1990 - 2020 city proper population change:

Seattle +42.8%


I edited the table to add Seattle, for homer purposes.

and that's for the same consistent 84 sq. mile land area, right? (ie. no "growth" through annexation).

that's extremely impressive population growth for a fixed-boundary US city over the past 30 years.

it's at the opposite end of the spectrum from a city like detroit. in fact, seattle just passed detroit for city proper population in census 2020.

[iheartthed]

Should probably also include San Francisco as a legacy city:

1970s loss: -5.1%
1990-2020 growth: 20.7%

[wwmiv]

Originally Posted by Steely Dan

and that's for the same consistent 84 sq. mile land area, right? (ie. no "growth" through annexation).

that's extremely impressive population growth for a fixed-boundary US city over the past 30 years.

it's at the opposite end of the spectrum from a city like detroit. in fact, seattle just passed detroit for city proper population in census 2020.

I believe so. Seattle last annexed in 1978, and I agree: the growth is impressive.

http://clerk.ci.seattle.wa.us/~F_arc...annex_list.htm

[dave8721]

Originally Posted by mhays

I edited the table to add Seattle, for homer purposes.

Miami's population added 83,693 from 1990-2020 for only a 23.3% increase. Seattle grew almost twice as fast as Miami. I'm sure that would suprise most people.

[UrbanImpact]

Originally Posted by dave8721

Miami's population added 83,693 from 1990-2020 for only a 23.3% increase. Seattle grew almost twice as fast as Miami. I'm sure that would suprise most people.

However the City of Miami has only 36 sq miles of land area while Seattle has 84 sq miles

[badrunner]

Naw man. It was the golden era.

• Video Link

[Yuri]

1990's and 2000's were great for suburbs as well. Cities started to rise on the 1990's but the latecomers only in the 2010's. Now cities/inner cities/downtowns are growing faster than suburbs in most places for the first time in history.

[eschaton]

I'd argue the 80s was sort of the start of the urban renaissance. NYC, Boston, and many of the Western cities (San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, etc.) returned to growth that decade.

[iheartthed]

I think the 90s were peak suburbia and the 70s were the nadir of cities.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I think the 90s were peak suburbia and the 70s were the nadir of cities.

Yeah, I'd agree with this. Of course results may vary, but generally speaking, all U.S. cities (and probably most western first world cities) were turning to crap in the 70's. And almost all U.S. metros had tons of 90's-era sprawl.

The 1970's meant huge urban expansion in Asia and Latin America, but in North America/Europe, cities were really looking like shit. Even 1970's-era Paris looks really grimy. You could have filmed Taxi Driver there.

[TWAK]

Originally Posted by iheartthed

I think the 90s were peak suburbia and the 70s were the nadir of cities.

Gotta go with the 90's, at least for Northern California. An absolute explosion of ugly houses and office parks as suburban cities expanded.

[sopas ej]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I'd argue the 80s was sort of the start of the urban renaissance. NYC, Boston, and many of the Western cities (San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, etc.) returned to growth that decade.

I agree. Plus that whole YUPpie thing is from the 1980s (Young Urban Professional). It seems the 1980s was all about the "rediscovery" of big cities and urban environments.

[Steely Dan]

Originally Posted by sopas ej

I agree. Plus that whole YUPpie thing is from the 1980s (Young Urban Professional). It seems the 1980s was all about the "rediscovery" of big cities and urban environments.

yeah, the 80s were the inception decade of yuppie gentrification seeds being planted in a lot of US cities.

a movie like "About Last Night" would've never been made in the '70s.

[JManc]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I'd argue the 80s was sort of the start of the urban renaissance. NYC, Boston, and many of the Western cities (San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, etc.) returned to growth that decade.

Or they merely bottomed out in the 70's but I remember NYC as a kid in the mid 80's and it was still rough. The 90's was when we started to see cities stage a comeback.

[Yuri]

Originally Posted by JManc

Or they merely bottomed out in the 70's but I remember NYC as a kid in the mid 80's and it was still rough. The 90's was when we started to see cities stage a comeback.

Yes, people mentioned the 1980's, but the early 1990's was still rough. New York in the films was mostly portraited as a dangerous, grim place. The movie, Ghost for instance. Main characters were yuppies, but New York was featured as a very threatening place. Few years later, Friends appeared and their New York was much more welcoming and prosperous.

[Doady]

Shopping malls died because of power centres. Shopping malls died because big box retail took over the department stores, which originated in the downtowns of cities. So instead of walking from store to store or from department to department, the suburbanite now has to drive from store to store or from department to department (from "category killer" to another "category killer"). No more shopping malls to locate suburban transit terminals and anchor the suburban transit routes. If anything, suburbanization probably has mostly gotten worse overall, the walkability of urban areas in USA and Canada declined and car dependence increased since the 80s.