Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 5

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Comrade

You being so adamant this project not happen, and that the city kick Ryan Smith to the curb, when you've got zero skin in the game is the point. You don't live in Salt Lake anymore. You're not going to be impacted one way or another. It's easy for you to say, "let Ryan Smith move the Jazz and this hockey team south or into Utah County..." when you don't actually live in Salt Lake County, let alone Salt Lake City.

That's the point. You're free to have an opinion and speak your mind but I just find it funny that you're so ready to go to war over things that haven't even been announced yet and you don't live here anymore. I'm sure you can see how that dynamic is a bit interesting.

And I'm not trying to be a dick. My whole point is that you're worried but you're not going to be the one who faces the long-term consequences of either option.

That's the reality.

So, it's easy to dismiss Ryan Smith and his proposal and to suggest he should pound sand.

But you're not the one who will have to potentially face a reality where the Jazz and the hockey team relocate to Provo. You're not the one who will have to potentially face a reality where downtown loses the Delta Center because Ryan Smith decides to bulldoze it so he doesn't have two competing arenas. Maybe they replace the arena with a four-story cookie-cutter apartment project, which I'm sure will totally make up for it.

It won't be you, tho, who has to worry about downtown stagnating now that it's losing over a million-plus people coming into the city a year for events at the Delta Center. It won't be your business that goes under because there's just not enough foot traffic anymore in that area. It won't be you that has to figure out how to incentivize downtown now that one of its major draws has completely relocated to the suburbs.

That's not something you'll have to worry about.

You won't have to worry about a tax base that might dwindle because downtown development kind of dries up with the area not being a destination anymore. Especially if it has to compete with The Point and that Utah City in Utah County.

Clearly the city sees some incentive in working with Ryan Smith or they wouldn't have decided to fight as hard for the Jazz like they have.

But it's not a coincidence downtown died when everyone's attention turned to the suburbs in the 1960s, 70s and 80s. They're not immune from that ever happening again.

Downtown has to continue to be proactive or it'll see the exact same decline that shuttered Main Street for so many years.

That doesn't mean give away the farm. But it does mean being open to ideas.

Why anyone would object to a billion-dollar investment into downtown is beyond me. I can understand concerns but when will Salt Lake ever get that commitment again?

Because it certainly hasn't happened outside the LDS Church and the Gateway, which was really pushed by federal dollars to clean up the Brownfields.

But outside that? How many mega projects are floated and never materialize?

That impacts the city and those who live here.

[wrendog]

Originally Posted by i-215

Right now we (the public) are getting dumped with all very real, concrete downsides...

• Demolition of convention center (despite opening a convention center hotel)
• Demolition of Abravanel Hall
• Commitment to new sales tax
• $900M commitment from the legislature
• Further erasure of Japantown
• Potential loss of major trade shows during construction

LOL wut.

This list is full of hysteria not based in reality.

Demolition of the convention center? Link? I've heard downsizing, but not the removal of the CC. That is stupid. The new hotel will still be fine. the CC will still host conventions.

Demolition of Abravanel Hall? Most seem very much on board with either keeping it or building a brand new state of the art hall.

Yes, there will be sales tax increase. For improved development in the city.

Erasure of Japantown? What? no one is advocating for that. On the contrary, sounds like japantown is an integral part.

[Comrade]

Here's another question:

What would Salt Lake look like today if the Delta Center was originally built out in the suburbs?

Interestingly enough, Miller had to be sold on staying downtown.

He was looking south to build the new Jazz arena:

Q. Reports at one time had Larry Miller considering southern Salt Lake Valley locations for his new arena. Why has he now decided to build downtown?

A. The fact is Salt Lake Mayor Palmer DePaulis and Salt Lake County officials sold Miller on a downtown arena. Perhaps more accurately, they let Miller sell himself on downtown.

Last spring, after the Jazz had seriously looked at potential arena sites in Sandy, Murray, West Valley, Midvale, South Salt Lake and the unincorporated county, DePaulis and County Administrative Services Director John Rosenthal approached Miller and asked him to give them a little time to organize a task force to study the feasibility of a downtown arena.

It sounds like a very similar situation. Miller was looking to build south. Salt Lake realized this and sold him on downtown. Granted, this is a much more expansive situation overall but what if Miller had decided to build the arena out in Sandy (where his heart was for many years)?

How would western downtown look today?

Would we have a Gateway? Think of downtown in 1989.

It essentially ended at 200 West on the backside of the Salt Palace:



Everything west of that was either a parking lot, tracks, warehouses or abandoned buildings.

Maybe there's a smattering of development but I feel confident in saying it wouldn't have developed quite like it did post-Delta Center.

[Boz]

Originally Posted by mattreedah

zoning changes

A beauty from that KSL article:


foto: Jeffrey D. Allred, Deseret News

[bob rulz]

The city and Ryan Smith all seem committed to making this a good project. I understand your concerns based on precedent I-215. I don't like or trust tech bros either. But there has been nothing to suggest that they are going to let him do whatever he wants. There's a lot of behind-the-scenes negotiating going on, and the process has been quite a bit more transparent than you're letting on. Hell the most recent news I saw says that the preferred option is to keep Abravanel Hall in place.

https://www.ksl.com/article/51013129...orm-mayor-says

[RC14]

Originally Posted by i-215

Right now we (the public) are getting dumped with all very real, concrete downsides...

• Demolition of convention center (despite opening a convention center hotel)
• Demolition of Abravanel Hall
• Commitment to new sales tax
• $900M commitment from the legislature
• Further erasure of Japantown
• Potential loss of major trade shows during construction

...with only nebulous, vague promises from SEG:

• A new hotel
• "Housing"
• Not moving the Jazz away

This is reality distortion. On the positives list you left out: A new mid block connection between 300 W and City Creek, day lighting of 200 W and possibly 100 south, A walk-able, vibrant entertainment district, reconnecting both sides of downtown, and oh yeah, an NHL team.

and as Werndog, correctly, pointed out, most of the negatives aren't even realistic.
The convention center will still exist. It will be downsized, but likely updated. You mention the new CC hotel. I have heard some people point out how jarring it is to walk from a brand new hotel into an outdated convention center in need of a refresh. An updated convention center would fix this.

Japantown, mostly, doesn't exist anymore and they are involved in the discussions. I don't see how this goes any direction but up for them.

At this point, I don't think Abravanel Hall is going anywhere. There is going to be too much public backlash to tearing it down and comments from both Mayors seem to imply leaving it.

Originally Posted by i-215

The communication on this has been horrible! I think my outrage is well justified, based on the current information that we have.

In fairness to those involved, I don't think there is much to share yet. These plans are still being worked out and negotiated. Acquiring the Coyotes and having them play in SLC this season, wasn't something that was anticipated prior to a few months ago. They probaly expected to have a few more years to figure everything out.

[Ironweed]

Originally Posted by Comrade

You being so adamant this project not happen, and that the city kick Ryan Smith to the curb, when you've got zero skin in the game is the point. You don't live in Salt Lake anymore. You're not going to be impacted one way or another. It's easy for you to say, "let Ryan Smith move the Jazz and this hockey team south or into Utah County..." when you don't actually live in Salt Lake County, let alone Salt Lake City.

I am also a proponent of what Smith proposes.

If the Jazz & new NHL team were to go down south, It would have a significant negative impact on SLC. Longer term, as Comradino said, it would illustrate that SLC cannot get things done. A major red flag.

[rockies]

Originally Posted by Comrade

Can you point me to where they 'keep going back to the drawing board'?

They're negotiating.

Do you guys not know how projects work? Every project ever has multiple drafts with concessions and changes. It doesn't mean you're going back to the drawing board, though lmao

Maybe I was unclear but I was just fully agreeing with you hahaha. I was just pointing out people are being so angry about the plan but there isn't even a plan, like the entertainment district group are currently engaging with all the stakeholders so we do not really know what they will push for eventually

"they' in my prior post being the very extreme opponents that are also very detached from the whole thing to begin with

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Ironweed

I am also a proponent of what Smith proposes.

If the Jazz & new NHL team were to go down south, It would have a significant negative impact on SLC. Longer term, as Comradino said, it would illustrate that SLC cannot get things done. A major red flag.

And I think that's a legitimate concern, especially as we likely gear up for a new MLB stadium to boot.

What confidence would the Millers have in working with Salt Lake in the future if they can't even work with Smith on this deal?

Someone quoted one of the SLC councilmembers, and I can't remember if it was Victoria Petro or Eva Lopez Chavez, about how the council is great planners but horrible developers.

And it's true.

How many big projects has Salt Lake whiffed on the last 30+ years?

We already know the RSL story.

The Living Planet Aquarium was supposed to go downtown - but the city couldn't get it done.

We're losing the Bees (and who wants to bet it takes years - if not decades - for the ballpark plans to ever be realized?).

Remember how close Salt Lake came to losing the Broadway theater to Sandy?

I think people forget that but it was almost a done deal. I'm sure you all remember this:







This back-and-forth between Sandy and Salt Lake on the theater went on for years - from 2008 into 2012. But despite the fact Sandy had the first concrete proposal and a head start, Salt Lake won out.

But it wasn't a lock. It took Sandy being even more incompetent about developing than Salt Lake (they still haven't come close to realizing their downtown they set out to build when Bush was president) for the theater to finally go in downtown.

But I remember the forum back then - it was looking pretty likely Sandy would win out. I'm sure many of the older posters also recall how that played out.

Salt Lake won - but barely.

In many ways, their win was the opposite of what happened with the E Center. When Salt Lake was awarded the Olympics, Mayor Deedee Corradini began discussion about building a hockey-specific arena next to the Delta Center. It would also house the minor league team.

But, like with the theater, West Valley was also throwing out their proposal and beat out Salt Lake. So, the E Center was built there. I think we all can agree that the E Center location is not ideal and the arena would have been far better downtown.

But regardless, my point is that it seems like Salt Lake, more than any other major city, is always in competition with its suburbs for everything - from a soccer stadium to now our minor league baseball team to our minor league hockey team to the aquarium, the broadway theater and now the Jazz/NHL team.

It's not a good look that we keep losing these battles.

Granted, we've been able to win some (the American Stores Tower, now Wells Fargo Center, was another one that was almost lost to the suburbs - as American Stories initially planned on building their headquarters out in West Valley) but it's never easy and it always seems we're tripping over ourselves or lucking out (again, the broadway theater would have been built in Sandy if they weren't incompetent - it wasn't like they were the fallback option to Salt Lake. They were the initial choice).

The fact The Point is going up is just going to add more competition for downtown Salt Lake.

Lose on this and you better believe we'll also lose on the MLB stadium when that's finally built. Then Salt Lake looks kind of like a loser all around.

Fortunately, the city and council and Ryan Smith are committed to making this work and I think that's great. Smith really does seem to be working in good faith here and I can't hate on that (and trust me, if you know me, I've hated on Smith before).

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by rockies

Maybe I was unclear but I was just fully agreeing with you hahaha. I was just pointing out people are being so angry about the plan but there isn't even a plan, like the entertainment district group are currently engaging with all the stakeholders so we do not really know what they will push for eventually

"they' in my prior post being the very extreme opponents that are also very detached from the whole thing to begin with

Ah my bad!

[Paniolo Man]

I will be unable to craft a true construction update post for the next two weeks, but here is Gabbott's Row as of today to provide a break in the NHL controversy.

[Atlas]

Census city population estimates came out and Salt Lake City is at 209,593

[Nebula3lem123]

Originally Posted by Comrade

How many big projects has Salt Lake whiffed on the last 30+ years?

I never thought of it this way (likely because I'm significantly younger than most of you here) and yeah, I'd have to agree. I think all of these places would've succeeded more if they were in downtown whether or not the city was able to put out a plan, but it DOES matter whether or not the city can work to have these projects happen. I'm not sure losing more pro sports will bring downtown back to how it was back in the 70's and 80's, especially with the better transit and development we've gotten recently, but I also don't want to live in a world where we find that out. If working with SEG (as much as I hate it) is what we have to do, I think we should do it.

[Orlando]

https://www.wsj.com/us-news/climate-...ing_now_news_2

Does anybody have a WSJ account that they can post the contents of this on here? It's not development, but it is relative. Is there a better thread to post this to?

[TheWireRedux]

Overall points from the WSJ GSL article:

- The GSL has risen six feet over the past two years and the over land covered by the lake has increased 150 sq miles, roughly the size of Denver

- The last two winters have been the wettest in over a decade, fueling growth in western lakes in western lakes and reservoirs. Lake Mead is up 30 feet, Lake Powell 40 feet.

- Visitor to Lake Powell doubled this last year to a record high 5.2 million visitors compared to 2022.

- But across the West, experts predicted that due to climate change, they still expect the long-term trend will be more frequent droughts and shrinking snowpacks.

- Recreation spending (boat slips, etc.) at the GSL totals about $44.5 million a year.

- Businesses that harvest brine shrimp eggs, which are sold overseas as a feed for farmed shrimp and fish in a business that brings in as much as $60 million a year.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Nebula3lem123

I never thought of it this way (likely because I'm significantly younger than most of you here) and yeah, I'd have to agree. I think all of these places would've succeeded more if they were in downtown whether or not the city was able to put out a plan, but it DOES matter whether or not the city can work to have these projects happen. I'm not sure losing more pro sports will bring downtown back to how it was back in the 70's and 80's, especially with the better transit and development we've gotten recently, but I also don't want to live in a world where we find that out. If working with SEG (as much as I hate it) is what we have to do, I think we should do it.

Exactly. It is a bit hyperbole on my part to suggest it could regress back to where it was in the 1970s but I think there's a lot of positive momentum happening downtown right now and it can absolutely blunt it.

It does seem both parties are working in good faith here and I am hopeful that will result in a stronger, more vibrant downtown that is absolutely the destination spot in Utah.

I think that's one area Salt Lake has struggled in over the last 60+ years and that's making downtown a destination center.

You talk to your grandparents and those who grew up in Salt Lake during the 1920s, 30s, 40s and 50s and you'll hear about how downtown was the destination for the entire Wasatch Front. You essentially made a day of it.

This is Main Street in 1951 (which I colored):



We're starting to get back to this. Maybe we're not there yet but Main Street definitely looks more alive today than it has at any point in my lifetime.

But Salt Lake abandoned downtown and for a long period of time. Even in the 90s, when other cities were experiencing a rejuvenation of their downtown core, Salt Lake kinda lagged. It's really been the last 20 or so years that we've seen a true commitment to making downtown that destination place again.

We gotta keep that momentum going. Creating an entertainment area that bridges Main Street and the western part of downtown would be huge - something I know I've advocated for at least the last ten years and likely since I joined the forum (here's a post I made back in 2014 discussing where to put the convention hotel):

What downtown needs is a push to move its retail and entertainment options beyond Main. Right now, Salt Lake City is basically one street with limited options beyond that - outside the Gateway, of course.

What is killing the Gateway is its isolation (and no, it isn't the homeless) from the rest of downtown. The only way you can open that up is by extending things between Main and 300 West. To do that, you have to go South, since the options on South Temple are already defined with the Temple, City Creek, the Utah Museum of Contemporary Art and Abravanel Hall. The only thing 200 S has going for it is the Capitol Theater (which is closer to Main than 200 W) and the Salt Palace.

Drive down 200 South and once you reach West Temple, the foot traffic completely disappears. It's not active. It's dead. There is a handful of shops, but on the whole, it's a whole lot of parking and limited retail. Develop that area, expand downtown with residential, commercial, retail and mixed-use developments and you instantly connect Main with Gateway.

It also pushes more development toward Pioneer Park, which is still fairly underutilized because of its distance from any real substantial activity downtown (beyond, again, Gateway - which is dying).

Ten years later and we might finally be addressing this divide!

[RC14]

Originally Posted by TheWireRedux

- Recreation spending (boat slips, etc.) at the GSL totals about $44.5 million a year.

I was surprised by this number given how Utahns famous ignore the Gret Salt Lake. That gives me a little bit of hope for the future of the lake.

Thanks for posting Orlando and WireRedux.

[Craxo]

Originally Posted by Atlas

Census city population estimates came out and Salt Lake City is at 209,593

Wait, SLC has a smaller population than us (at 237,250)? What the heck, Boise, build a better skyline.

[Craxo]

Whoops, a repeat post.

[Nebula3lem123]

Originally Posted by Craxo

Wait, SLC has a smaller population than us (at 237,250)? What the heck, Boise, build a better skyline.

Ok to be fair, SLC city limits are ridiculously small for metro area size at only 1/5th, probably 1/10th if we're honest and include Provo and Ogden.