Statistics Canada Reports II

[urbandreamer]

Why must we grow?

[savevp]

I'm not saying we must grow, just that there is no valid equivalency between high growth Canadian cities and the aforementioned American cities in high decline.

Although on a skyscraper forum, most of us are probably pro-growth.

[urbandreamer]

I prefer moderate growth Cleveland to Calgary. Like Quebec, these cities have strong senses of self. I get the feeling Calgary is trying hard to not be Edmonton, but the massive surge in immigration has created ethnic enclaves that reinforce the isolation through poor built form. This endless sprawl of cheaply built ugly beige/grey/black homes with little greenery is depressing.

[Paper Boy]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

Depends on what. I predict that in 70 years, the Maple Leafs will still not have won another Stanley Cup...

OK now you are talking crazy 😜

[ssiguy]

The exodus of BCers & Ontarians to Alberta is very different from what it use to be.

Traditionally people moved there for better jobs, lower taxes, and higher pay especially when those 2 provinces were in difficult economic times. Now, the situation is quite different as most of these Alberta-bound migrants already have jobs and many well paying ones but cannot afford to live in their respective provinces...........they once opted out of their provinces but are now being pushed out.

Unless BC experiences a MASSIVE housing crash, Alberta will increasingly be seen, particularly by younger Canadians, as tomorrow's country while BC will increasingly be seen as the place where dreams come to die.

[Wigs]

As a rust belt city aficionado, Edmonton and Calgary most certainly do not have that vibe.
My best friend from Buffalo stated: so much of Calgary looks like it was built in the past 20-25 years as he explored the city on foot.

Edmonton has a post 1970s-1980s feel as so much was constructed at a time when the actual rust belt in America was collapsing. In the past decade Edmonton has built a heckuva lot whether skyscrapers, residential high-rises, infill or LRT expansion.

[Wigs]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

I prefer moderate growth Cleveland to Calgary. Like Quebec, these cities have strong senses of self. I get the feeling Calgary is trying hard to not be Edmonton, but the massive surge in immigration has created ethnic enclaves that reinforce the isolation through poor built form. This endless sprawl of cheaply built ugly beige/grey/black homes with little greenery is depressing.

The city of Cleveland lost 24,000+ people from 2010-2020. Cuyahoga county lost 15,000 overall. The <2.2M Cleveland Metro/MSA gained a paltry 7,000 people.
By contrast, the much smaller city limits of Buffalo gained 17,000 and Erie county gained 35,000 from 2010-2020.

Time will tell what happened in the 2020s when the 2030 US census is revealed.

[gatt]

Originally Posted by Architype

I imagine there would be a DMZ buffer, taking a chunk out of Quebec.

tu peux rever.

[rdaner]

Originally Posted by savevp

This is a really bizarre take; I don't understand this at all, as someone who has spent significant time in all the Canadian and American cities you've mentioned.

The growth in any of the above Canadian cities far, far, far exceeds the American cities mentioned. Each city has tremendous construction and infrastructure investment. The American cities mentioned sunk to depths so far below anything we've ever seen in Canada as to be unfathomable. And now that they've slightly rebounded, or bottomed out, they are leading the Canadian cities growing by 10k+ people annually? Ludicrous. The most desolate stretch of Edmonton CBD has more street life than 75% of downtown Cleveland, Detroit, etc. Edmonton, Calgary, and Winnipeg have each built their new tallest skyscrapers in the last decade, this feels to you like American cities that were literally burning and crumbling in the '90s?

What a bizarre take.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by savevp

This is a really bizarre take; I don't understand this at all, as someone who has spent significant time in all the Canadian and American cities you've mentioned.

The growth in any of the above Canadian cities far, far, far exceeds the American cities mentioned. Each city has tremendous construction and infrastructure investment. The American cities mentioned sunk to depths so far below anything we've ever seen in Canada as to be unfathomable. And now that they've slightly rebounded, or bottomed out, they are leading the Canadian cities growing by 10k+ people annually? Ludicrous. The most desolate stretch of Edmonton CBD has more street life than 75% of downtown Cleveland, Detroit, etc. Edmonton, Calgary, and Winnipeg have each built their new tallest skyscrapers in the last decade, this feels to you like American cities that were literally burning and crumbling in the '90s?

What a bizarre take.

Absolutely. Unless this guy time-travelled back to 1946, it is very hard to take the suggestion that Cleveland, Detroit, etc., are in better shape, downtown-wise, than the Canadian cities mentioned. Quite the opposite, in every single way possible. I've been to Detroit and Cleveland recently, and their downtowns are still coming out of a nadir phase of the likes never experienced by any large Canadian city.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by ToxiK

Depends on what. I predict that in 70 years, the Maple Leafs will still not have won another Stanley Cup...

I predict that so long as Gary Buttman remains in charge, a Canadian city will never see a Stanley Cup. Montreal was the last one (I was there) and that was wayyyyyy back in 1993 (when I was nearing the end of my undergraduate degree at Concordia U).

[lio45]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

Why must we grow?

Our society is set up with the assumption of perpetual growth. We need ever-increasing amounts of fresh new suckers to pay for the unsustainably-generous goodies that were promised to the people who are now retiring.

[Zeej]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Absolutely. Unless this guy time-travelled back to 1946, it is very hard to take the suggestion that Cleveland, Detroit, etc., are in better shape, downtown-wise, than the Canadian cities mentioned. Quite the opposite, in every single way possible. I've been to Detroit and Cleveland recently, and their downtowns are still coming out of a nadir phase of the likes never experienced by any large Canadian city.

Downtown Cleveland has great bones, I think it's well positioned for a modest rebound which I think has begun with the relocation of Sherwin Williams head office to a new tower. Same thing is going on in Detroit, I just haven't spent as much time there.

But I agree with your point - aside from the typical 'restaurant and nightlife street' you find in many American cities, Downtown Cleveland is dead, particularly outside of working hours. Its open areas (public spaces or surface lots) are borderline windswept, they're so empty. If there isn't a sporting event or a concert going on, it feels a little seedy. Vastly smaller Canadian cities have more vibrant Downtowns.

[north 42]

Originally Posted by Zeej

Downtown Cleveland has great bones, I think it's well positioned for a modest rebound which I think has begun with the relocation of Sherwin Williams head office to a new tower. Same thing is going on in Detroit, I just haven't spent as much time there.

But I agree with your point - aside from the typical 'restaurant and nightlife street' you find in many American cities, Downtown Cleveland is dead, particularly outside of working hours. Its open areas (public spaces or surface lots) are borderline windswept, they're so empty. If there isn't a sporting event or a concert going on, it feels a little seedy. Vastly smaller Canadian cities have more vibrant Downtowns.

DT Detroit is night and day compared to just a decade ago. So much investment and rehabs have happened, new builds and the city’s new second tallest skyscraper is being completed, and there is also a fair amount of retail returning. There are more people in the streets now and it’s the safest part of the city.

Seems like lots of things are getting better in Detroit and Cleveland, while Canadian cities are struggling more with homelessness and vagrancy, while still prospering and growing at a very strong rate. It’s very obvious when looking at the downtowns of Detroit and Windsor.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by goodgrowth

k, thanks for the heads up on letting me know to take your future posts with a grain of salt.

Oh you'll need a lot more than a grain. He just posts whatever random thoughts float through his head.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by north 42

DT Detroit is night and day compared to just a decade ago. So much investment and rehabs have happened, new builds and the city’s new second tallest skyscraper is being completed, and there is also a fair amount of retail returning. There are more people in the streets now and it’s the safest part of the city.

Seems like lots of things are getting better in Detroit and Cleveland, while Canadian cities are struggling more with homelessness and vagrancy, while still prospering and growing at a very strong rate. It’s very obvious when looking at the downtowns of Detroit and Windsor.

Yeah, I guess we can all agree that the downtowns of Detroit and Cleveland are going in the right direction (i.e. cleaner and nicer than 10 years ago) while many Canadian cities are going in the wrong direction (i.e. dirtier and way more homeless than 10 years ago).

[Rollerstud98]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Oh you'll need a lot more than a grain. He just posts whatever random thoughts float through his head.

It’s right in his name, he’s a dreamer.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by lio45

Yeah, I guess we can all agree that the downtowns of Detroit and Cleveland are going in the right direction (i.e. cleaner and nicer than 10 years ago) while many Canadian cities are going in the wrong direction (i.e. dirtier and way more homeless than 10 years ago).

Good grief, have you been to Detroit and Cleveland? (I doubt it). No large Canadian city comes anywhere close in terms of decrepitude. I was in Detroit last summer, and yes, there are pockets of redevelopment, but the city as a whole is in extremely rough shape, on a scale that is unimaginable in Canada. There are reasons why these two cities are buzzwords for urban decay. Tens of thousands of abandoned homes. Hundreds of abandoned factories and schools, hectares of urban prairie, block after block of shuttered retail.

Your logic is strange. Ouagadougou and Port Moresby are also on the up and up, but these are not place conducive to wandering, even as Canadian cities have witnessed growth in homelessness.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

No, because Stats Canada isn't accurate.

I'm basing it on real world observations, ie driving around new housing developments. Edmonton and Calgary are finally catching up to Ontario's growth from a decade ago.

Statistics Canada isn't accurate, but somehow your interpretations derived from driving around new housing developments (presumably, in all Canadian cities) are?

Sure thing.

BTW, why do you want the United States to take over Canada, as you mentioned in another post? Why are you advocating that Quebec separate from Canada?

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

Good grief, have you been to Detroit and Cleveland? (I doubt it). No large Canadian city comes anywhere close in terms of decrepitude. I was in Detroit last summer, and yes, there are pockets of redevelopment, but the city as a whole is in extremely rough shape, on a scale that is unimaginable in Canada. There are reasons why these two cities are buzzwords for urban decay. Tens of thousands of abandoned homes. Hundreds of abandoned factories and schools, hectares of urban prairie, block after block of shuttered retail.

Your logic is strange. Ouagadougou and Port Moresby are also on the up and up, but these are not place conducive to wandering, even as Canadian cities have witnessed growth in homelessness.

To answer your question, I've been to both, but not since Covid in both cases.

BTW, with forums such as SSP available, no need to have been to a city to be aware of what's happening (or not) over there, nowadays.